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PA or ? for small room with low ceilings
Old 5th April 2018
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
... I'm not sure if the "professionals" here really do understand just how badly a mixer can be run.
Are you somehow claiming to be better at running a mixer badly than we "professionals", that you're some sort of authority on how to do things wrong?

Levity aside, here's a little test for you regarding low-end mixers:

"Me? I'll solo the channel and set input gain with the meter every time."

What's the best way to go about setting optimum channel input gain on a mixer which has no PFL/solo bus?
Old 5th April 2018
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
See I'm not sure if the "professionals" here really do understand just how badly a mixer can be run.
You're not serious are you...really?
Old 5th April 2018
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Are you somehow claiming to be better at running a mixer badly than we "professionals", that you're some sort of authority on how to do things wrong?

Levity aside, here's a little test for you regarding low-end mixers:

"Me? I'll solo the channel and set input gain with the meter every time."

What's the best way to go about setting optimum channel input gain on a mixer which has no PFL/solo bus?
Good question and the answer is.

I don't run a mixer that doesn't have a solo/PFL function. Some anwers are surprisingly simple.
Old 5th April 2018
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Please do not think that your acknowledgement of the veracity of our posts
Which I have consistently acknowledged because they are proven, not because this is some kind of negotiation.

Quote:
somehow validates the meaningless post hoc assertions you then make.
Like for instance...?


But please answer the previous question. Why does compression on monitors result in (note: not "cause") greater chances of feedback?
Old 5th April 2018
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
What's the best way to go about setting optimum channel input gain on a mixer which has no PFL/solo bus?
"Turn it up til you can hear it, if that doesn't work turn up something else."

Caveat - for those who know no better and for those insensitive to irony, this is not a serious answer but an example of the kind of approach used by mic users I have worked with.

Also "I like as much distortion as I can get so I just turn it right up" (real life example from "the manager").
Old 5th April 2018
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Good question and the answer is.

I don't run a mixer that doesn't have a solo/PFL function. Some anwers are surprisingly simple.
Does this mean that you wouldn't know what to do if you came across a mixer that does not have a solo/PFL function?
Old 5th April 2018
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Does this mean that you wouldn't know what to do if you came across a mixer that does not have a solo/PFL function?
Why, what might the consequences of that be?
Old 5th April 2018
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Does this mean that you wouldn't know what to do if you came across a mixer that does not have a solo/PFL function?
Of course I know what I would do but I'm not going to tell others what to do here. That's for you to do Samc.

Are you a helpful guy Samc or are you just here to tell people that they're doing it wrong?
Old 5th April 2018
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
But please answer the previous question. Why does compression on monitors result in (note: not "cause") greater chances of feedback?
A compressor will bring up low level noise and increase the RMS level of the signal effectively making it louder.
Old 5th April 2018
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Of course I know what I would do but I'm not going to tell others what to do here. That's for you to do Samc.
Please stop being silly, we're having a discussion on a forum and you've already given unsolicited advise (albeit false and misleading) and another poster asked you a direct question, this is not about telling anybody what to do...I haven't told anybody what to do either, you're just being snarky for being told your claims are false.

Quote:
Are you a helpful guy Samc or are you just here to tell people that they're doing it wrong?
Calling out false and misleading information is being helpful.

Anyway, the question still stands...
Old 5th April 2018
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Please stop being silly, we're having a discussion on a forum and you've already given unsolicited advise (albeit false and misleading) and another poster asked you a direct question, this is not about telling anybody what to do...I haven't told anybody what to do either, you're just being snarky for being told your claims are false.


Calling out false and misleading information is being helpful.

Anyway, the question still stands...
And what have you told us Samc? The question is still open for you to enlighten us.

TO be honest, based on your attitude and Wyllys's attitude I don't actually believe either of you 100%.

Claiming expertise and criticising anything that others may offer rather than putting anything on the line yourself is perfectly NORMAL human behaviour. Not a behaviour that I find personally acceptable though.
Old 5th April 2018
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
And what have you told us Samc? The question is still open for you to enlighten us.

TO be honest, based on your attitude and Wyllys's attitude I don't actually believe either of you 100%.

Claiming expertise and criticising anything that others may offer rather than putting anything on the line yourself is perfectly NORMAL human behaviour. Not a behaviour that I find personally acceptable though.
Stop the foolishness already dude...you should be thanking us for correcting you and helping you to better understand some of the basic science....
Old 5th April 2018
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Stop the foolishness already dude...you should be thanking us for correcting you and helping you to better understand some of the basic science....
Samc,

The Scientific Method is,

Observe
Based on the observation,ask a question
Form a hypothesis that answers the question you posed
Test your hypothesis
Form a Conclusion
Publish.

So, go for it Samc. Quote us some Science and provide some references please.
Old 5th April 2018
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Good question and the answer is.

I don't run a mixer that doesn't have a solo/PFL function. Some anwers are surprisingly simple.
What you've given is a reply, not an answer.

There are two acceptable answers to the test question:

1. Raise the input gain until the clip light flashes with the loudest signals, then back off until the clip indicator no longer flashes. This is the method described in a small booklet called a User Manual which comes with the mixer or is available in a pdf even for most mixers made before Al Gore invented the Internet.

2. Starting with channel gain turned all the way down, raise both the channel and master faders to the -0- mark, then raise the channel input gain until the master metering shows the signal strength peaking at 0dbu with the strongest signals.

Method 2 is preferred, but either will work. And if you're concerned about feedback during the process the answer is that you can do it with the speakers disconnected, off or turned down.

I've stayed in the thread (even though it has completely deviated from the OP) to correct some obviously mistaken info and opinion...for those interested in learning rather than just arguing senselessly and behaving like spoiled children. The pertinent information and science has all been given more than once, the myths properly debunked leaving only petty argument and troll-posts.

Time to be leaving, I think. Good luck, Anthony, and...

Grow up.
Old 5th April 2018
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
A compressor will bring up low level noise and increase the RMS level of the signal effectively making it louder.
Good answer, but to a different question.
Old 5th April 2018
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
.

Time to be leaving, I think. Good luck, Anthony, and...

Grow up.
I see no troll posts, hardly any personal comments and that's only been from SamC til your contribution to AntG.

It looks like I've asked you a question and you have no answer that doesn't undermine your previous posts.

Any chance you could address that before you go?
Old 5th April 2018
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
I see no troll posts, hardly any personal comments and that's only been from SamC til now.

It looks like I've asked you a question and you have no answer that doesn't undermine your previous posts.

Any chance you could address that before you go?
Samc gave you the answer in post #99 .

If you have a specific question regarding live audio, I'll be glad to answer. At this point there's so much mud and muck that I really have no idea what you're asking.

Last edited by Wyllys; 5th April 2018 at 01:50 PM..
Old 5th April 2018
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Samc gave you the answer in post #99 .
The question related specifically to feedback issues, which Sam didn't address, hence my reply to him, #105 .
Old 5th April 2018
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
If you have a specific question regarding live audio, I'll be glad to answer.
Why does compression in a monitor mix eat up headroom before feedback?

Or probably more precisely,

Why does compression on a monitor mix exacerbate feedback issues? (I'm assuming that we agree it does, perhaps I shouldn't).
Old 5th April 2018
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
Why does compression on a monitor mix exacerbate feedback issues?
Again, the answer to this question was given in post #99 . The answer is correct whether you have understood it or not.
If not, I suspect you have not yet comprehended the basic principle regarding audio feedback necessary to addressing component issues.

If your aim is to come to an understanding of this issue, I suggest you start a thread addressing it specifically. As of now your question is appended to a thread on another topic. More people will see it and offer their experience if posted under a proper heading.

If you're trying to "win" an argument, that's a separate issue.

Good luck.
Old 5th April 2018
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Samc gave you the answer in post #99 .

If you have a specific question regarding live audio, I'll be glad to answer. At this point there's so much mud and muck that I really have no idea what you're asking.
Of course the question was answered already, but he's too busy playing "gotcha"...we have clearly gone past the critical point of diminishing returns.

The fortunate thing is that the sensible people can and will see what's going on.
Old 5th April 2018
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Again, the answer to this question was given in post #99 . The answer is correct whether you have understood it or not.

If your aim is to come to an understanding of this issue, I suggest you start a thread addressing it specifically. As of now your question is appended to a thread on another topic. More people will see it and offer their experience if posted under a proper heading.

Good luck.
Ok, you have no answer. I understand.
Old 5th April 2018
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
Ok, you have no answer. I understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
A compressor will bring up low level noise and increase the RMS level of the signal effectively making it louder.
For the fourth time...
Old 5th April 2018
  #114
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The answer I was hoping for was that a compressed monitor mix will increase the chances of feedback because in order to hear the compressed sound we are encouraged to turn it up, potentially creating the conditions for the feedback loop previously described.

I not only believe this based on my own observation but I've seen and heard this suggested many, many times by experienced and knowledgeable people. Can they all be wrong?

The reason why I've been harping on about it is that in my experience, and the conventional wisdom (or not, as maybe I'm about to learn) is that the same effect, like compression, is produced by clipping a signal by overloading a preamp input, as described by AntG and the same feedback problems encountered.

If this is the case than what myself and AntG have been suggesting, however unscientific the language, has validity. It doesn't contradict any laws but describes the effect of those laws in situations where dynamic range is limited and system sensitivity is variable.

I tried to avoid this tangent by deleting a post which, admittedly, was off topic but Sam had replied in his usual condescending way but didn't seem able or willing to back up his assertion with answers to simple, real life questions.

So explain to me how this is mistaken and I'll happily go away, I promise.
Old 5th April 2018
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
For the fourth time...
And still DNAQ.
Old 5th April 2018
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
The answer I was hoping for was that a compressed monitor mix will increase the chances of feedback because in order to hear the compressed sound we are encouraged to turn it up, potentially creating the conditions for the feedback loop previously described.

I not only believe this based on my own observation but I've seen and heard this suggested many, many times by experienced and knowledgeable people. Can they all be wrong?

The reason why I've been harping on about it is that in my experience, and the conventional wisdom (or not, as maybe I'm about to learn) is that the same effect, like compression, is produced by clipping a signal by overloading a preamp input, as described by AntG and the same feedback problems encountered.

If this is the case than what myself and AntG have been suggesting, however unscientific the language, has validity. It doesn't contradict any laws but describes the effect of those laws in situations where dynamic range is limited and system sensitivity is variable.

I tried to avoid this tangent by deleting a post which, admittedly, was off topic but Sam had replied in his usual condescending way but didn't seem able or willing to back up his assertion with answers to simple, real life questions.

So explain to me how this is mistaken and I'll happily go away, I promise.
The classic answer to all this is that there are no technical solutions when the humans are the problem. I can explain the physics why's and wherefore's, but it is much more difficult to explain people. If, as the two of you say, the problems come from mis-using the equipment, then STOP.

IOW, the laws of physics don't apply to "more me" monitor situations. That requires dealing with the walking meat computers on the stage. Your problem occurs at the point of system/human interaction. Unfortunately, there is no "idiot knob" you can turn down.

As to the situational aspect, if you're stuck in a room with high ambient noise, a poorly deployed sound system of less desirable gear and "musicians" who are less than cooperative/understanding, understanding the physics is of less help than being a great psychologist.

BTW, it seems that your questions and issues have to do with using compression in the monitors. While there may be exceptions to the rule, best practices dictate not using compression in monitors because of the problems you describe. For voice, using compression can be not only counter-productive as you note, but can actually cause voice damage as the singer sings louder and louder trying to hear themselves while the compression in the monitors negates their efforts. So...

Your question aside (for the moment), the best solution is to avoid using compression in the monitors in the first place. If the mix console cannot do monitors pre-prossessing, you can split the vocals into two channels using one for mains and the other for monitors letting you compress one and not the other.
If you're out of channels and the board won't do pre-process pick-off for the monitors, well...you're just SOOL.
Old 5th April 2018
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
I tried to avoid this tangent by deleting a post which, admittedly, was off topic but Sam had replied in his usual condescending way but didn't seem able or willing to back up his assertion with answers to simple, real life questions.
So this is all my fault...? This has got to be the worst excuse for being a troll and a blameshifter ever...needless to say its both gutless and dishonest.
Old 5th April 2018
  #118
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I'm thinking that we should include reduced hearing and incompetence to the list of what cause feedback...they're both certainly more valid than "cheap preamps" in my opinion.
Old 5th April 2018
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I'm thinking that we should include reduced hearing and incompetence to the list of what cause feedback...they're both certainly more valid than "cheap preamps" in my opinion.
From all indications they should be at the top of the list...

OE is still the primary cause of most accidents.
Old 5th April 2018
  #120
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AntG, that change of tack is as close as we're going to get to "ok, you were right".

Also, you can be damn sure once the insults start flying SamC has run out of answers. The questions were straightforward enough.

Sam, for a man who does sound for more than 200 gigs a year you're not the best listener. If you'd bothered trying to understand the problem you could have saved us all 2+ pages of arrogant BS.
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