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Another PA Choice thread! Brooklyn Audio, Void, KV2 inside!
Old 12th January 2018
  #1
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Thread Starter
Another PA Choice thread! Brooklyn Audio, Void, KV2 inside!

Hi All,

I'm going to try give as much info as possible to try give a clear picture, but I WILL forget something so just ask if clarification is needed.

My brother and I run a small PA hire company but we are growing rapidly. Thanks to some regular contracts and also some hire kit installed in venues, we are looking at new boxes.

We currently run quite a few small shows, so have generally stuck with smaller systems that could be combined relatively well. We do shows of every type from conferences to metal to dance shows to theatre. You get the idea, has to be able to cope with a wide variety of tasks.

Our current stock is made up of;
4x FBT Mitus 152A
6 x FBT Mitus 218A
4 x QSC K12
4 x QSC K8
6 x QSC KW181
2 x QSC KSub
HK Linear5
HK PR0 Mons
Mackie SRM450 & 350
Various old HK/Peavey/other gear (JUNK).

On to the issue at hand. We are looking to consolidate to 1 system, able to scale to deal with large issues. We were originally going to stick with the FBT system, but tbh we've had quite a few issues with them. I have to admit, for the price they are excellent! however, the subs are very....spray-ey? the sound out the front is lovely, tight and well rounded, but they are truly omnidirectional and cause major issues on stage even when rigged in a cardiod setup. This also isn't something we have to ability to do all the time as we need all the power shooting forward for larger events.

The QSC's have been excellent. We have had them for years and they have brought in more money than probably anything else in the warehouse. They are troopers, and the quality and sound from a small box I think is unrivalled.

So. Options.

I've been majorly considering Brooklyn audio after reading about them on this site and from what I can tell, they look exceptional, and are reasonably priced. If I decide to go for them, I will make the journey to the Netherlands to hear the system

Though most of our work is varied, we have had quite a uptake in dance music, small festival's and EDM and I have been seriously considering Void Acoustics. While i'm personally not into that kind of music, I LOVE the bass response these types of speakers provide. I am looking at the Stasys system, but I have also just been offered a system compromising of Arcline 6 x 4, Arcline X x4 and 3 x lab gruppen LAB4000 for £8000 which I am considering, although it doesn't have the 18" subs I was looking at originally.

I also wanted to know opinions on KV2, Martin etc as I don't know much about these companies.

I have roughly £15,000 to play with right now, with hopefully another £20,000 to add further boxes if needed in the next 6 months. It would have been higher had I not decided to buy a house. Ohwell

Anyway, any opinions would be great.

Cheers

Andy
Old 12th January 2018
  #2
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Are you only interested in the brands you're asking about, or are you also interested in used professional loudspeakers from more established brands like d&b, L'Acoustics, Nexo, Martin and Meyer sound for example?
Old 12th January 2018
  #3
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Are you only interested in the brands you're asking about, or are you also interested in used professional loudspeakers from more established brands like d&b, L'Acoustics, Nexo, Martin and Meyer sound for example?
wow sam, are you just always on this board, Crazy fast response.
I'm open to any brands, have looked at all the other brands vaguely but can't see anything that would fit the bill right now. But then again I don't know much about any of those brands apart from their line arrays. I am looking at used, but preferably used equipment that is relatively new and still plenty available. Not something years old and only available for sale once a century.

Cheers
Old 12th January 2018
  #4
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There are a lot of really good "heritage" point-source (and line array) systems from premier manufacturers that meet your criteria. a flexible system that can be arrayed and is scalable is paramount for the things you want to do. being able to cross-rent allows more possibilities for bigger gigs and renting your rig to other production houses.

Here are some systems you might want to look at:

Meyer Sound:
CQ1/2 - active, point source system.
MSL4 - active, point source system.

L'Acoustics:
original ARCS - passive, point source system.
DV Dosc - passive, line array system.

d&b audiotechnik:
C7 - passive point source system.
Q10 - passive point-source/line array system.

Nexo:
Alpha/Alpha e - passive point source system.
PS 8/10/15 - passive point source systems.
GEO 1210 - passive point source/line array system.

Martin Audio:
W8C - passive, point source system.
W0.5/W1/W2/W3 - passive, point source systems.

These are systems that you can still find used in Europe and the UK, and although most are "heritage" systems it's still relatively easy to find replacement parts and you can still see them being used at venues and on B and C stages at some festivals. More importantly though is they all sound good, are scalable, they are made for the road and many of your clients will know them so no hard sell will be necessary in most cases.

All of these systems are plug and play as all modern systems are and will not require any "special" attention if you use the approved controller.

All these systems will do what you want but there may be specific drawbacks to using some systems only you can decide what important considerations you have to keep in mind and pay attention to. The obvious downside is the size and weight of some systems . I suggest that you stick with only one or two brands/systems and that you have at least one system that will also double as stage monitors (like the Nexo PS system) as this will afford more flexibility.
Old 12th January 2018
  #5
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
being able to cross-rent allows more possibilities for bigger gigs and renting your rig to other production houses.
This is not an insignificant or minor part. From a business standpoint (as in "staying in business") it is difficult to over-state the value of cross-renting.
Old 12th January 2018
  #6
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
This is not an insignificant or minor part. From a business standpoint (as in "staying in business") it is difficult to over-state the value of cross-renting.
This was something I had considered, which is why I was reticent to go ahead with the Brooklyn audio system. There is currently very few available and non in the UK, seriously putting me off this.

I really want this to play a major part, another reason I am asking around to find what other engineers recommend and what they might rent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
There are a lot of really good "heritage" point-source (and line array) systems from premier manufacturers that meet your criteria. a flexible system that can be arrayed and is scalable is paramount for the things you want to do. being able to cross-rent allows more possibilities for bigger gigs and renting your rig to other production houses.

Here are some systems you might want to look at:

Meyer Sound:
CQ1/2 - active, point source system.
MSL4 - active, point source system.

L'Acoustics:
original ARCS - passive, point source system.
DV Dosc - passive, line array system.

d&b audiotechnik:
C7 - passive point source system.
Q10 - passive point-source/line array system.

Nexo:
Alpha/Alpha e - passive point source system.
PS 8/10/15 - passive point source systems.
GEO 1210 - passive point source/line array system.

Martin Audio:
W8C - passive, point source system.
W0.5/W1/W2/W3 - passive, point source systems.

These are systems that you can still find used in Europe and the UK, and although most are "heritage" systems it's still relatively easy to find replacement parts and you can still see them being used at venues and on B and C stages at some festivals. More importantly though is they all sound good, are scalable, they are made for the road and many of your clients will know them so no hard sell will be necessary in most cases.

All of these systems are plug and play as all modern systems are and will not require any "special" attention if you use the approved controller.

All these systems will do what you want but there may be specific drawbacks to using some systems only you can decide what important considerations you have to keep in mind and pay attention to. The obvious downside is the size and weight of some systems . I suggest that you stick with only one or two brands/systems and that you have at least one system that will also double as stage monitors (like the Nexo PS system) as this will afford more flexibility.


I have to say, I wanted to try and stay away from line array's until we were ready to go full scale large format, however I have considered most of your options above. I would love a W8C rig, the same with Q10, but currently I won't get much for my budget.

I want to stay away from nexo, never had a good experience with them and had a bad experience with a nexo systems tech that put me off. Maybe stupid and I may have to give them another listen.

I love the idea of a meyer system, but have to say I've rarely (if ever) seen one for sale in my price range.

The only other thing putting me off 'heritage' equipment as you call it, is the fact that 'in theory' it is already, "out of date". I understand it is being sold by the larger companies because there is a newer, better version, however there are also drawbacks such as the fact you can no longer buy brand new units and have to rely on the used market and also the fact that slowly numbers will drop and cross rented will become harder.
Old 12th January 2018
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazydrum95 View Post
I have to say, I wanted to try and stay away from line array's until we were ready to go full scale large format, however I have considered most of your options above. I would love a W8C rig, the same with Q10, but currently I won't get much for my budget.

I want to stay away from nexo, never had a good experience with them and had a bad experience with a nexo systems tech that put me off. Maybe stupid and I may have to give them another listen.

I love the idea of a meyer system, but have to say I've rarely (if ever) seen one for sale in my price range.

The only other thing putting me off 'heritage' equipment as you call it, is the fact that 'in theory' it is already, "out of date". I understand it is being sold by the larger companies because there is a newer, better version, however there are also drawbacks such as the fact you can no longer buy brand new units and have to rely on the used market and also the fact that slowly numbers will drop and cross rented will become harder.
The Nexo PS and Geo systems, the L'Acoustics ARCS are still being sold and supported currently and all the systems I suggested are currently available and will still be available for a few years. Just because a system is discontinued does not mean it's replacement is "better", manufacturers put out new systems regularly for commercial reasons, and sometimes the discontinued systems are being sold under a different model name and with a slight make-over.

To get good deals you will probably have to look outside the UK, I just saw a MSL 4 system (four tops and two subs) on a French site for less than 10,000€. If the systems you're using currently are sufficient for your business you might want to stick with them, but you will have to buy new or almost new if you want newer systems that those that were suggested for a lot more money.

Nexo makes some of the best sounding loudspeaker systems available, you should give them a listen...
Old 12th January 2018
  #8
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cheu78's Avatar
I agree with Sam,

I'm not a big fan of the nexo line either, BUT the PS line is really good. (I like it more than the geo).

L'acoustics ARCS or dv dosc are top boxes, love'em.

And the D&B Q line is fantastic as well.

I'd probably lean more on the last two, but they might cost you more than the nexo, but might be more "versatile". Easier on the riders and possibly easier to cross rent..



Cheu
Old 13th January 2018
  #9
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The C7, Meyer MSL4 and CQ systems are very good performers and versatile systems too...the PS system can do double duty as monitors and FOH, in fact there is not one bad system on the list its just down to personal preference, but this is business, and you don’t buy the system you like, you buy the system that is best for the business and will make you money.

Figure out what your business need and go with that, all the systems at this level are good.
Old 17th January 2018
  #10
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Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Meyer Sound:
CQ1/2 - active, point source system.
MSL4 - active, point source system.

L'Acoustics:
original ARCS - passive, point source system.
DV Dosc - passive, line array system.

d&b audiotechnik:
C7 - passive point source system.
Q10 - passive point-source/line array system.

Nexo:
Alpha/Alpha e - passive point source system.
PS 8/10/15 - passive point source systems.
GEO 1210 - passive point source/line array system.

Martin Audio:
W8C - passive, point source system.
W0.5/W1/W2/W3 - passive, point source systems.
These are all excellent systems and although I have preference to some of this am not a fan of others, that is purely personal taste. I will also add the following to look at, although these may fall outside of being widely available in your specific territory.

KV2 Audio ES series - these are amazing value for money, perform very well and although they are really starting to penetrate the EDM and theatre markets, they are excellent live performance PA's that can scale to a limited point.

Adamson Spectrix. A second hand Spectrix is very scaleable and I would put this in the D&B "Q" territory.
Old 18th January 2018
  #11
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I would check out some of the new Turbosound The IQ series sound pretty good. I just heard a demo of the Berlin and Liverpool live array. They sound really good! At a great ricepoint.
Old 18th January 2018
  #12
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Another vote here with Aisle 6: I have never had a problem or experienced any form of disappointment with my KV2 ES stacks and EX10 wedges. I bought the stacks 13 years ago and 3 wedges a year later to offer high quality SR for the acoustic Americana shows we perform. 7 years ago I replaced the original delay lines with the super digital upgrade (EPAK 2500 Delay Line KVN044617) and to date this is the only change from the original design in the ES system. There is a hell of a lot to be said for sticking with the things that consistently work. The primary reason I picked the KV2 over Meyer and EAW was the scaleability to work from 200 to 1,500 seat venues by selecting from 1 to 3 bass bins per side. I frequently do one man small guitar/vocal shows that are very easy to accommodate with the EX10 wedges alone.
I cannot vouch for KV2 SR efficiency in musical genres other than the work we do but for our acoustic music format when driven with our Digico "D" pres at FP32/96K the sonic quality is all I could ever ask for.
Hugh
Old 18th January 2018
  #13
S21
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S21's Avatar
 

If you want to be a rental company you need to stock what your customers want to rent.

What do your customers want to rent?

Can you rent that to them profitably? Will it fit in your van?

How it sounds is a secondary consideration (which flows from "will they rent it?")
Old 18th January 2018
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 View Post
If you want to be a rental company you need to stock what your customers want to rent.

What do your customers want to rent?

Can you rent that to them profitably? Will it fit in your van?

How it sounds is a secondary consideration (which flows from "will they rent it?")
I said it already the decision has to be made around the business.
Old 27th January 2018
  #15
Gear Head
 

By the looks of the brands OP posted, he/she might not be in the pro league budget wise. Any recommendation in the brands he/she mentioned?
Old 27th January 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uiuser View Post
By the looks of the brands OP posted, he/she might not be in the pro league budget wise. Any recommendation in the brands he/she mentioned?
Have you seen list prices for Void and KV2? They are definitely in what most folks would regard as the pro leagues!

KV2 have a small catalogue compared to many big names, but their impressive ES and VHD systems pack a mighty punch for their relatively small size. They are anything but cheap however.

Void have cleverly negotiated the current market, with a catalogue that mixes their trademark point source boxes with a very compact yet potentially flexible line array.

A club near me has recently installed a bunch of Arclines, and in small clusters they don't seem to suffer the issues conventional boxes do, when arrayed in lengths too short to take advantage of regular line array physics.

I've noted comments on places like Speakerplans forum, calling Void a poor man's F1 and so forth. That is just silly, as if anything Void have innovated right across their range, whereas F1 only seem interested in making new and better subs (eg Powersoft iPal tech), whilst relying on the same technology used in Flash and Flood for most of their tops. I do think their 318 monitor is an interesting product, but unfortunately the current form factor really doesn't lend it to a more flexible range of applications.
Old 27th January 2018
  #17
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Roland's Avatar
The cross renting thing is definitely something to be considered, I’m not sure where you are based, but in the UK, d&b, is generally the best cross renter in the smaller pro market as many love it and most don’t object, it also has a box for almost every situation and they hold value particularly well.

Other boxes such as the kv2 are great and scalable for small to medium gigs (the ones most people do day in day out), but they don’t hold their value on the secondhand market and I would suggest that they are probably not a good new purchase. I would also keep clear of Nexo, whilst being decent stuff, the smaller boxes are expensive, average performers and about 20 years old in design.

I don’t know your customers, but my customers never ask what make of gear I’m supplying, they just assume that I will provide something suitable and that will sound good. Whilst a lot of good kit was on the list that Samc posted earlier, some of it is heavy and large by comparison with some of the latest kit available, this may be a factor, msl4’s are going to require at least two guys on the job, that could quickly outweigh the saving made buying them. If brand name isn’t your issue, things like Coda, Kv2, Danley, TW Audio, RCF even dB technologies make good kit. Good luck!
Old 27th January 2018
  #18
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What would your customers love?
Old 27th January 2018
  #19
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If Roland is right about KV2 ES system secondary market pricing go for it. We seldom if ever see any used KV2 systems on ebay for sale in North America however there also has never been substantial new unit KV2 activity here. My ES stacks and EX10 wedges have performed flawlessly for 12 years and if you can score a low priced deal on similar used KV2 gear go for it: it's bullet proof and works very well!
Hugh
Old 27th January 2018
  #20
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Dutchy15's Avatar
15.000 is a tight budget for a pro system, even when buying used. What are the requirements for the system? (audience sizes, music genres, indoor, outdoor, venue types)

I have first hand experience with Brooklyn Audio in different situations and it's a great PA, very much plug & play though I believe they are working on giving owners more in-depth control of the DSP. That being said, it's like most A-brand systems; it doesn't sound better, it sounds different. Cross-renting might indeed become a problem, though you can always decide to go for renting a different system alltogether if need be. I've seen festival stages with Adamson mains, JBL subs, Martin front fills and Renkus Heinz in/out fills as well as some more Martin to cover the areas outside the tent...

A holiday in the Netherlands is always a good idea


Dutchy
Old 27th January 2018
  #21
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There are no loudspeaker systems using ‘new’ design, they are just repackaging the same old technology. The fact that Nexo has sold, and continues to sell so many of these boxes all over the world gives testimony to their performance versatility and reliability...the tops also double as very good stage wedges.

None of the systems from any of the major manufactures sound bad or “average”...whatever that means. We prefer some systems over others based on what we like, but the true test is working with a system many times on different types of gigs.

I’m pretty sure all the systems being suggested here sound good and perform well, the real question is what system can your business make money with easily. Because if all you need is a system that sounds good, you can close your eyes and pick a system from any of the major manufacturers blindly. If you want a system that need only satisfy your specific taste and needs you will have to figure that out based on a set of criteria they are unique to you. Choosing a high performing, versatile and reliable system for rental duty is another thing all together.

If you need to cross-rent and/or satisfy riders, then some of the systems being mentioned here would probably make bad choices in my opinion...and this has nothing to do with their performance. The fact is that in all of my touring I have never seen some of these brands/models anywhere. If you’ve never seen them there is a good chance you won’t be able to cross-rent or fill riders.

The size, weight and complexity of the setup of the system also need to be taken into consideration...can you fly and stack the boxes easily, will you need a lot of expensive add-ons to make the system useable etc, and will you have to buy a van/truck to transport the new system.

I know a few really great sounding/performing systems that would stand op anything from the bigger brands and cost a fraction, but I wouldn’t recommend them for the reasons I mentioned above. This is a business decision, not an emotional or personal choice.
Old 27th January 2018
  #22
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Roland's Avatar
Of course cross rental capability can be important, but I guess if you are a small regional supplier it probably isn’t as big a consideration. Rider acceptance is also an issue, if you are supplying for acts, however, I’ve done some decent acts that were more concerned that they had enough monitors than what the foh rig was, I also know from experience that often when visiting with a band you have what the venue has installed.

My experience with the smaller Nexo rigs is that they are fairly ordinary soundwise, I would much prefer anything d&b, rcf. The Nexo ps has some pretty ordinary drivers in them and are not great for the money, kv2 ex12 is a much better speaker at around that price point. I don’t agree that speakers are the same as they were 20 years ago. A good C4 rig is still a great system, but some of the developments in driver technologies and certainly DSP and amplifiers mean that the latest good stuff is really good. Martin rigs were ok 20 years ago, their MLA and MLA mini are a serious step up and that’s coming from someone that doesn’t particularly like line arrays.

I still think that msl4’s are decent, however, they are getting quite old now, heavy enough that unless you are an out and out grunt you are going to be hiring in extra crew, that immediately has an ongoing cost that will quickly outweigh any saving in the initial buy.

Another benefit of many modern systems is that they tend to be a set and forget arrangement, perhaps a bit of system eq to allow for water bags and temperature, but I’ve seen too many older systems using “bespoke” crossovers, amps and settings that mean the system isn’t anywhere near original/decent performance parameters. One of the benefits of d&b. In the cheaper end, their y series stuff is very good, perhaps still a bit rich for the original posters budget, but RCF would probably get there.
Old 27th January 2018
  #23
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To be fair, there's nothing especially unusual about a pro grade box like PS using ordinary drivers. The value and performance comes from the engineering work put in to create a coherent system.

Lots of top grade systems use slightly modified versions of relatively average drivers. Highly customised and bespoke drivers made to very specific and unusual standards tend to be found in quite unusual products - for example the drivers needed to create d&b's passive cardioid boxes, or the 9" mids in Meyer's Leopard.
Old 27th January 2018
  #24
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Roland's Avatar
Most top European boxes are B&C drivers, BMS, etc. KV2 use a lot of eighteen Sound. A friend of mine commented on how surprised that the drivers were “cheap” looking considering their cost. They also don’t sound great for the money, but I am comparing what else is around at this price today with a ok 20 year old design.
Old 27th January 2018
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo filters View Post
To be fair, there's nothing especially unusual about a pro grade box like PS using ordinary drivers. The value and performance comes from the engineering work put in to create a coherent system.

Lots of top grade systems use slightly modified versions of relatively average drivers. Highly customised and bespoke drivers made to very specific and unusual standards tend to be found in quite unusual products - for example the drivers needed to create d&b's passive cardioid boxes, or the 9" mids in Meyer's Leopard.
Thw engineering and construction are no little thing or everybody else would be producing top rated boxes too...and PHL components are anything but cheap or ordinary, and I happen to know that they are bespoke.
Old 27th January 2018
  #26
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mojo filters's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Thw engineering and construction are no little thing or everybody else would be producing top rated boxes too...and PHL components are anything but cheap or ordinary, and I happen to know that they are bespoke.
I italicised ordinary for a reason. Use and meaning in this context is nebulous.
Old 27th January 2018
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
Of course cross rental capability can be important, but I guess if you are a small regional supplier it probably isn’t as big a consideration. Rider acceptance is also an issue, if you are supplying for acts, however, I’ve done some decent acts that were more concerned that they had enough monitors than what the foh rig was, I also know from experience that often when visiting with a band you have what the venue has installed.

My experience with the smaller Nexo rigs is that they are fairly ordinary soundwise, I would much prefer anything d&b, rcf. The Nexo ps has some pretty ordinary drivers in them and are not great for the money, kv2 ex12 is a much better speaker at around that price point. I don’t agree that speakers are the same as they were 20 years ago. A good C4 rig is still a great system, but some of the developments in driver technologies and certainly DSP and amplifiers mean that the latest good stuff is really good. Martin rigs were ok 20 years ago, their MLA and MLA mini are a serious step up and that’s coming from someone that doesn’t particularly like line arrays.

I still think that msl4’s are decent, however, they are getting quite old now, heavy enough that unless you are an out and out grunt you are going to be hiring in extra crew, that immediately has an ongoing cost that will quickly outweigh any saving in the initial buy.

Another benefit of many modern systems is that they tend to be a set and forget arrangement, perhaps a bit of system eq to allow for water bags and temperature, but I’ve seen too many older systems using “bespoke” crossovers, amps and settings that mean the system isn’t anywhere near original/decent performance parameters. One of the benefits of d&b. In the cheaper end, their y series stuff is very good, perhaps still a bit rich for the original posters budget, but RCF would probably get there.
I don’t really understand what “sounds ordinary” means, they either do the job or not. The other thing too is that the main criteria for the systems most production companies buy is not what the principals think sound best. Plus, we are talking about the best seller in this class...none of the loudspeakers you mentioned are as well known and I’ve never heard of a band refusing Nexo, or other major manufacturer’s loudspeakers.
Old 28th January 2018
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo filters View Post
I italicised ordinary for a reason. Use and meaning in this context is nebulous.
I was trying to support your post but seemed to have screwed it up.
Old 28th January 2018
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
Most top European boxes are B&C drivers, BMS, etc. KV2 use a lot of eighteen Sound. A friend of mine commented on how surprised that the drivers were “cheap” looking considering their cost. They also don’t sound great for the money, but I am comparing what else is around at this price today with a ok 20 year old design.
Sounds average, don’t sound as good as it cost, components “look” cheap, ordinary sound wise....

You use a lot of vague and meaningless terms to disparage the loudspeaker...your friend should realize that he’s paying for more than just the “look” and cost of the components when he buys a loudspeaker.

All the systems that sounded good 20 years ago still sound good today and that’s all they have to do, sound good...they don’t have to sound better than the new stuff. Modern technology allows manufacturers to build smaller, lighter louder, and in some cases easier to setup systems. But many modern systems don’t actually sound “better” than the rigs they replace, they certainly sound more processed though.

Different, yes, but universally better is a matter of opinion...and even so, I doubt you can find less expensive gear of any vintage that sounds better than the stuff on my list that is also rider friendly and cross rentable.

Last edited by Samc; 28th January 2018 at 06:12 AM..
Old 28th January 2018
  #30
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dickiefunk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
If Roland is right about KV2 ES system secondary market pricing go for it. We seldom if ever see any used KV2 systems on ebay for sale in North America however there also has never been substantial new unit KV2 activity here. My ES stacks and EX10 wedges have performed flawlessly for 12 years and if you can score a low priced deal on similar used KV2 gear go for it: it's bullet proof and works very well!
Hugh
I’ve seen a few KV2 EX & ES systems go for bargain prices in the UK and if it wasn’t for the weight I would have snapped one up! The Nexo PS systems also come up at bargain prices now and again.
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