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China Arrays? Modular Synthesizers
Old 24th November 2017
  #1
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
China Arrays?

Who has ventured into China made speaker arrays?

Cabinets look OK in most cases. Pricing might allow one to replace drivers with better preferred drivers after purchase?

Opinions?

China brands used?

Billy
Old 24th November 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
 

Loudspeaker box design is not generic, it is specific to a particular loudspeaker with certain technical specifications. Every 8” woofer is not the same, it’s the same for all sizes...something to keep in mind.
Old 24th November 2017
  #3
Gear Addict
 

what Samc said. It's very easy to copy a cabinet design. But if you do not copy the drivers so that they perform exactly the same, then the speaker, as a whole, will not perform the same.

But beyond drivers, cabinet materials will change too. That's how Chinese stuff works - they take the 'real thing' and then substitute as many parts as they can with something cheaper. So if the real thing has a 12mm baffle, the Chinese one might have only a 6mm baffle. If the real thing uses rigging hardware rated to 1000kg, the Chinese one might be only good for 200kg... which could pose you a real problem down the line.

Chinese stuff will give you something which looks visually identical but will likely sound and function nothing like the real thing.
Old 24th November 2017
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

What is known about their hardware? What kind of paper trail is there? What testing has been done? Wait until there is an accident. It won't be pretty. There is a reason why stuff costs what it costs.
Old 24th November 2017
  #5
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Having heard some other companies use them, they are really terrible. No pattern control, no tonal balance, just a box spraying audio out into the ether.
The other largely overlooked issue is that, at least in Australia, the law views the importation of goods as if you were the manufacturer. Therefore, if something failed and caused damage, injury or death, then you are liable as if you made the product with your own two hands. This alone is a very good reason to support a product that has all the correct certifications and support an importer who has registered the products compliances etc.

This becomes even more dangerous with truss and other rigging products and electrical products.
Old 24th November 2017
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

I'm sorry but I buy the badge. My cabs say JBL on them.

I, in the past, have purchased cheaper look alike products to save money and every time I have been sorry I did. I now buy once/cry once and I'm glad I did. This goes for just about all the tools in my shop too. I know products with a quality badge are made in china (mainly electronics) but I always bank on the fact that these companies spec. quality components, materials and assembly procedures so that their name stands up.
Old 25th November 2017
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff spicoli View Post
IMO/IME most of these comments are ridiculous and with absolutely nothing backing them up. Every country has both great and total **** products. "Chinese" is not a company. If you believe companies of today located in China do not have the design, technological and manufacturing capabilities to produce the highest of high end products, well, you guys are missing out on some great options.
OK so how many line array brands can you name who produce their cabinets in China?

I typically agree that China, as a country, can produce good and bad products. But the thread is clearly referring to the fake and imitation products that are manufactured in China to look similar to the real thing at a fraction of the price.

I agree with your principle that you can source good gear from China if you know where to look.
Old 25th November 2017
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff spicoli View Post
IMO/IME most of these comments are ridiculous and with absolutely nothing backing them up. Every country has both great and total **** products. "Chinese" is not a company. If you believe companies of today located in China do not have the design, technological and manufacturing capabilities to produce the highest of high end products, well, you guys are missing out on some great options.
I think you missed the point of what was said by others by a mile and a half... there are low quality products made everywhere, but my understanding is that when a company sells dangerous products in Europe or the US they are responsible for ensuring it meets all applicable laws and assume responsibility for any malfunction caused by faulty design and manufacture.

If someone imports equipment into the country however, it is their responsibility to insure that the equipment meet all applicable laws and safety standards and is officially certified as such. I’m not even sure you can legally import and use such equipment without certification...

Chinese manufacturers can and will produce whatever their clients want, but this is about cheaply made fake products.
Old 25th November 2017
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I think you missed the point of what was said by others by a mile and a half... there are low quality products made everywhere, but my understanding is that when a company sells dangerous products in Europe or the US they are responsible for ensuring it meets all applicable laws and assume responsibility for any malfunction caused by faulty design and manufacture.
This is a really valuable point, even if the Chinese manufacturer is not producing inherently dangerous equipment.

In the UK and Europe, it is the duty of the manufacturer to produce equipment which conforms to the relevant BS / EN standards for that product. This is a good way of working, since it means that the only real responsibility of the end user is to (a) use it in accordance with local laws, and (b) to use it in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. This simplifies legislation as it means that standards for the way that a product is used do not have to exist. Standards are simply written to dictate how the product is manufactured, and the manufacturer dictates how you use it.

When a device is manufactured in accordance with the BS / EN standards associated with it, it can be provided with a manufacturer's declaration of conformity (DoC) and marked with a CE mark. Laws will normally state that it is the user's responsibility to check that the product is legally compliant in the territory it is being used and a CE mark / DoC is proof of that; so indeed by directly importing an item from outside the EU the owner takes on responsibility for ensuring that the device is compliant with those standards.

So indeed when you buy a made-in-China audio product, that is sold by a Western brand; the Western brand will be ensuring that it is manufactured in accordance with the appropriate standards. But when buying direct from China, this assurance is not there.

In the event that something goes wrong, to state that you "assume responsibility" is not, necessarily, true. In the event of an accident, an investigation would likely follow and faults identified. You would not have to 'take responsibility' for the manufacturers' poor work, per se. You would likely be held responsible for not fulfilling your obligations as a provider of the equipment to ensure that it was safe and compliant. So all the same negligent and liable to prosecution, but buying dangerous equipment does not necessarily make you 'responsible' for any subsequent failure of it.
Old 26th November 2017
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
In the event that something goes wrong, to state that you "assume responsibility" is not, necessarily, true. In the event of an accident, an investigation would likely follow and faults identified. You would not have to 'take responsibility' for the manufacturers' poor work, per se. You would likely be held responsible for not fulfilling your obligations as a provider of the equipment to ensure that it was safe and compliant. So all the same negligent and liable to prosecution, but buying dangerous equipment does not necessarily make you 'responsible' for any subsequent failure of it.
is this different from what I wrote...I said nothing about the importer assuming responsibility for the manufacturer’s work, the importer/user is negligent for using equipment that was not certified to meet applicable laws and standards.

Plus, by modifying the boxes it can be reasonably claimed that the user somehow modified the strength of the boxes and created the dangerous situation. Please read the entire post again for a full understanding of what was actually stated.
Old 26th November 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Please read the entire post again for a full understanding of what was actually stated.
I have read the entire post again (I did do the first time...) and now I encourage you to do the same.

You would not be taking responsibility for the malfunction. You would be taking responsibility for not fulfilling your duties to ensure that the equipment was safe. The differentiation is actually because you would be failing to fulfil your duties, regardless of there actually being an accident. The accident would just be the event that exposed your failure.

I hope this makes sense. As I said I completely agree with your notion about the role of an importer buying equipment not manufactured in accordance with local standards; however there is a separation that as an importer alone you would unlikely be held responsible for the actual malfunction of the equipment, but you might be held responsible for failing to act properly in your role as a supplier which in doing so allowed an incident involving the malfunction of the equipment to occur.

Quote:
Plus, by modifying the boxes it can be reasonably claimed that the user somehow modified the strength of the boxes and created the dangerous situation.
Sorry what does this refer to? Did anyone suggest modifying the equipment?
Old 10th January 2018
  #12
Here for the gear
And lets not forget that some A-list brand love to say that everything is built in-house but allot of components are made in China. And then they are assembled in the US, Germany, Italy or somewhere else. And there are even businesses that use OEM's witch is basically slapping your label on other(chinees) products so they get sold easier or too make a higher profit. And its not only the cheap-o brands doing this.
Old 10th January 2018
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erikh90 View Post
And lets not forget that some A-list brand love to say that everything is built in-house but allot of components are made in China. And then they are assembled in the US, Germany, Italy or somewhere else. And there are even businesses that use OEM's witch is basically slapping your label on other(chinees) products so they get sold easier or too make a higher profit. And its not only the cheap-o brands doing this.
When a manufacturer use those components they assume responsibility for the safety and certification of the components and the products they are used in. Just like when airbags explode in cars, the car manufacturer is directly responsible for the damages.

The other thing is, the A-list manufacturers who manufacture in China usually design the components and can monitor the manufacturing process to ensure quality...think Apple. Importing a cheaply made product with the intention of modifying it is not the same thing...especially when you're not an expertise to properly design and engineer the modification. Then there is the safety aspect...
Old 11th January 2018
  #14
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The CE mark is a joke. Period.

I've seen so many products provided with declaration of conformity while not meeting the listed standards. It's just about a worthless logo or piece of paper, often copied by manufacturers who don't even know what the listed EN refer to. Do you believe that each and every products with the CE mark has for example been type-tested for EMC (those lab tests are very expensive)?

Now I'll let Studer58 reply.
Old 11th January 2018
  #15
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erikh90 View Post
And lets not forget that some A-list brand love to say that everything is built in-house but allot of components are made in China. And then they are assembled in the US, Germany, Italy or somewhere else. And there are even businesses that use OEM's witch is basically slapping your label on other(chinees) products so they get sold easier or too make a higher profit. And its not only the cheap-o brands doing this.
There is nothing inherently wrong with Chinese manufacturing. The Chinese are fully capable of producing high quality equipment to the same standards as stuff produced in Europe.

What is a problem from China is two things:
- Independent Chinese firms producing things to compete directly with Western products (which they normally do by mimicking the original product then value engineering it to reduce the price).
- Western manufacturers producing in China, but not supervising their Chinese operation (which often results in the factory taking the liberty of substituting components and processes with cheaper alternatives without the manufacturer's knowledge, to reduce the price and make more money).

To make a good product in China - which is totally possible - you really need to have your own team at the factory as well as the locals, and supervise the day to day operations to ensure that the product you're producing remains at the spec that you started it at.
Old 11th January 2018
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

The difference between American, European etc. products at this level and Chinese is the engineering and R&D that goes into the final product. For the most part Chinese just copy and sell unless they are manufacturing for a name label and are working under strict specs by the customer.

I had a friend who attended musical events in China and the sound gear was mainly JBL, Meyer and a couple others. No Chinese that he saw.
Old 12th January 2018
  #17
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Look familiar?
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Old 13th January 2018
  #18
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The worst example I remember was in late 80's or maybe early 90's when a Swiss company sold overpriced "Swiss Made" claimed PCs while no single part was probably made in Switzerland. I don't remember legal details, I suppose the company which no longer exists had to face lawsuits especially as there was not special knowledge involved, I did assemble myself a couple PCs at the same time but only to include them in industrial projects and the only reason was to be sure to know exactly which components were used (BTW who remembers the phonebook-sized Computer Shopper magazine? ).

Some Rode products are made in China, others are made in Australia. For example the blimp is made in China but I didn't notice any quality issue, well, maybe only the thingy used to tie the elastic cords of the dead cat... err... wombat, but that can easily be replaced if it would fall off. I wouldn't expect that blimp ("Mk II" version) to be different if manufactured in Australia.
OTOH technically more "critical" Rode equipment is mostly manufactured in Australia with a quite deep in-house production (including board level and some machined parts).

Outsourcing isn't an issue as such if the supplier reliably respects all agreed quality requirements but the result in real life can widely vary. In some case quality is flawless, in others it's consistenly bad, or simply random.

There are very successful Swiss companies who manufacture very complex industrial production equipment without producing a single mechanical part in-house (though typically the whole electrical part is done in-house but based on COTS PLCs, etc.) even if overall for demanding parts to be produced in very small or zero series they often mostly chose Swiss suppliers for various practical reasons.

Chinese production is better suited for high volume production of strictly identical items. Quality issues are also often related to the price one is willing to pay.

For various reasons also discussed here (Nagra SD) I obviously prefer if something is made in Europe or in the Americas or even Japan or Taiwan but that's a personal preference.
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