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Need mic and setup suggestion for drums Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 1 week ago
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
I'll echo this quote . . .The idiosyncratic off-axis response of large-diaphragm condensers is intrinsic to their construction; it's the result of diffraction across the larger capsule, as well as using two capsules back-to-back as a method of creating their polar response. This is part of their "special sauce" that makes them useful in the studio, but it's a huge liability in live sound for exactly the reasons Folkie states.
As a general rule, this is false...very few SDCs sound as good as the 414 or U67 on OH, guitar cab and perc live in my opinion. A good mic is a good mic, and the right good mic is the best mic, being SDC or LDC is NOT what's important.

Last edited by Samc; 1 week ago at 11:54 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
As a general rule, this is false...very few SDCs sound as good as the 414 or U67 on OH, guitar cab and perc live in my opinion.
Yes. Off axis response is an issue with crappy mics, not good ones.
Old 1 week ago
  #63
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Thread Starter
I've been looking at the 214. It's one that I've seen mentioned a few times and in recordings where it is being used, I've liked it. I would go for a 414 but it's out of my budget.

It's kind of down to the sm81 or the 214. I'd do something else but I'm running out of time to pull the trigger and at this point, I just want to get it over with. sm81 seems safer, but the 214 seems more capable to capture my wants and needs in a better way. Maybe that's speculation
Old 1 week ago
  #64
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Nick Stedman's Avatar
Stopped here just to offer some microphone options. Really can't go wrong with these in any setting.

Kicks:
Neumann 47 FET
Beta 52
Shure SM91

Under Snare:
Shure KSM141

Top Snare:
Shure SM56 (a half sized 57 to save space from heavy handed drummers who like to hit mics)
Shure SM57

Hats:
Neumann 84
Shure KSM141

Overheads:
Neumann U47 TUBE
ZMI 67
Old 1 week ago
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
As a general rule, this is false...very few SDCs sound as good as the 414 or U67 on OH, guitar cab and perc live in my opinion. A good mic is a good mic, and the right good mic is the best mic, being SDC or LDC is NOT what's important.
Sam, the relationships between a microphone's diaphragm size and its polar/frequency response are certainly not "false" . . . I have personally calculated, modelled, and measured them. I also think the correlation between the smoothness of a microphone's off-axis response and its effect on a PA system's gain-before-feedback characteristics is pretty well established.

I agree that the U67 is a fabulous transducer, as is the AKG C12 . . . I'd agree that some versions of the C414 managed to get most of the C12's mojo . . . and I agree that these mics can indeed sound fabulous. But if you think that their off-axis response is anywhere near as smooth and consistent as a good small-diaphragm condenser, you're mistaken. Again, I have personally measured many of them.

I'm not saying that is an application deal-breaker . . . seasoned professionals will have no problem working with mics that are somewhat less feedback-resistant, and gladly do so in pursuit of subjective sound-quality improvements. But in making recommendations to somebody with minimal live-sound experience, I think it best to point them towards products that not only have I personally used with success in a similar situation . . . but products that have general technical attributes that make them likely to work well even if some of the operating conditions may vary.

So in this context, I'll absolutely stand by my recommendation to the OP to avoid purchasing large-diaphragm condensers for his stated primary purpose of sound reinforcement, covering a pot-pourri of drums and percussion instruments. Especially given that he's talking about products in the $400 range.
Old 1 week ago
  #66
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Stedman View Post
Stopped here just to offer some microphone options. Really can't go wrong with these in any setting.

Kicks:
Neumann 47 FET
Beta 52
Shure SM91

Under Snare:
Shure KSM141

Top Snare:
Shure SM56 (a half sized 57 to save space from heavy handed drummers who like to hit mics)
Shure SM57

Hats:
Neumann 84
Shure KSM141

Overheads:
Neumann U47 TUBE
ZMI 67
Yes, but...

Quote:
...OP's stated budget of $400.
Old 1 week ago
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
Sam, the relationships between a microphone's diaphragm size and its polar/frequency response are certainly not "false"
Your 'general' rule is not universal and to declare that it is a general rule is false...anybody can put up a pair of good LDC or SDC microphones over a kit and get good sound (and no problems) without too much fiddling, technicians do this on thousands of stages all over the world every single day despite what your measurements say.

Making the point that The off axis response of a small diaphragm is typically more uniform than LDC's in general is one thing...declaring it a general rule however does not properly educate the inexperienced and is how urban legends are born.
Old 1 week ago
  #68
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
Sam, the relationships between a microphone's diaphragm size and its polar/frequency response are certainly not "false" . . . I have personally calculated, modelled, and measured them. I also think the correlation between the smoothness of a microphone's off-axis response and its effect on a PA system's gain-before-feedback characteristics is pretty well established.

I agree that the U67 is a fabulous transducer, as is the AKG C12 . . . I'd agree that some versions of the C414 managed to get most of the C12's mojo . . . and I agree that these mics can indeed sound fabulous. But if you think that their off-axis response is anywhere near as smooth and consistent as a good small-diaphragm condenser, you're mistaken. Again, I have personally measured many of them.

I'm not saying that is an application deal-breaker . . . seasoned professionals will have no problem working with mics that are somewhat less feedback-resistant, and gladly do so in pursuit of subjective sound-quality improvements. But in making recommendations to somebody with minimal live-sound experience, I think it best to point them towards products that not only have I personally used with success in a similar situation . . . but products that have general technical attributes that make them likely to work well even if some of the operating conditions may vary.

So in this context, I'll absolutely stand by my recommendation to the OP to avoid purchasing large-diaphragm condensers for his stated primary purpose of sound reinforcement, covering a pot-pourri of drums and percussion instruments. Especially given that he's talking about products in the $400 range.
Which means octava mc 012's are his best choice. Because they are killer OH's.
Old 1 week ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
Yes, but...OP's stated budget of $400
OOPS! That wasn't in the original post so I must've missed that reading thru the thread. Now that I re-read thru the whole thread again, I noticed some others missed that too. Because it was never actually stated anywhere in the thread to my knowledge. Maybe the original post was edited? I don't know.

Good luck OP! 3 channels and a $400 budget with a lot of percussion to pick up sounds tough, but it's doable I guess and limitations are fun. Let us know what you decide on, I'm interested in knowing the outcome.
Old 1 week ago
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Your 'general' rule is not universal and to declare that it is a general rule is false...anybody can put up a pair of good LDC or SDC microphones over a kit and get good sound (and no problems) without too much fiddling, technicians do this on thousands of stages all over the world every single day despite what your measurements say.

Making the point that The off axis response of a small diaphragm is typically more uniform than LDC's in general is one thing...declaring it a general rule however does not properly educate the inexperienced and is how urban legends are born.
I may be mistaken here, but I don't think I represented anything as a "general rule" and certainly I didn't declare it to be "universal". Rather, they are simply my recommendations - those of a random schmoe on the internet. I do strive to state clearly exactly what experiences, theory, and data upon which I make a recommendation, such that an intelligent reader can consider this and come to whatever conclusion they like from my recommendations.

Based on your background and experiences, you may have different and recommendations, and I respect that . . . and likewise, readers of your posts can come to their own conclusions. But when you say something is "false" . . . this is a declaration of a Boolean condition. And it doesn't take a whole lot of logical rigor to understand that it's impossible for a statement such as "technicians do this on thousands of stages all over the world" to provide any confirmation, either positive or negative, on a Boolean condition. Perhaps this is a type of reasoning that works for you, and perhaps it works for many readers of these fora . . . and if it does, more power to you. I'm not here to tell anybody how to approach their craft . . . merely to give some thoughts and insights that they may or may not find valuable.

By the way, it's only possible for a person to do something "despite what measurements say" if they have measurement data, understand them, and act in contrary to them. If measurement data are unavailable, then actions are taken without the benefit of them. If one has measurement data but doesn't understand or consider it, then their actions are made in ignorance of measurements. These same classifications can be applied not just to measurement data, but to theoretical knowledge, direct experience, and advice . . . every practitioner of a given discipline engages in all of these modes of action whether they know it or not. The rigorous ones take effort to understand which apply for the actions they take.
Old 1 week ago
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Stedman View Post
...I re-read thru the whole thread again...
Good god, man, that's like staring at the sun.

Therapy is available.
Old 1 week ago
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
By the way, it's only possible for a person to do something "despite what measurements say" if they have measurement data, understand them, and act in contrary to them. If measurement data are unavailable, then actions are taken without the benefit of them. If one has measurement data but doesn't understand or consider it, then their actions are made in ignorance of measurements. These same classifications can be applied not just to measurement data, but to theoretical knowledge, direct experience, and advice . . . every practitioner of a given discipline engages in all of these modes of action whether they know it or not. The rigorous ones take effort to understand which apply for the actions they take.
Wow...!

I use a lot of LDCs & SDCs on stage and don't generally have the problem you mentioned...Did your testing show/prove that all LDCs have poor off-axis response and is it accepted fact...? if no, I think your statement is too broad an could be misleading...just saying.
Old 1 week ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shufflebeat View Post
Good god, man, that's like staring at the sun.
Ha, I was actually reading the thread though. Not just looking for that part. I'm curious what OP decides on.
Old 1 week ago
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Stedman View Post
Ha, I was actually reading the thread though. Not just looking for that part. I'm curious what OP decides on.
Me too.

We may revolutionise theory... but I bet we don't.
Old 1 week ago
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Wow...!.
Yeah . . . sometimes the 'ol brain goes a bit off the rails when a migraine starts kicking in . . . especially after working to meet deadlines writing certain types of documents. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I use a lot of LDCs & SDCs on stage and don't generally have the problem you mentioned...Did your testing show/prove that all LDCs have poor off-axis response and is it accepted fact...? if no, I think your statement is too broad an could be misleading...just saying.
I always hesitate to make generalizations like "all" . . . because I'm obviously the kind of guy who can parse words . . . and I agree that with the mics you've cited as examples . . . there's something that doesn't seem correct if one's describing any of their attributes as being "poor".

But yes, I can confidently say that the polar response of a U89Ai (which may be my overall favorite mic ever) is somewhat less consistent than even a cheap SDC like the A-T Pro37. This is because being physically smaller is a clear advantage in achieving the particular engineering goal of obtaining a consistent polar response. In the real world nobody would have to scratch their head in choosing between them for any application, but I think that understanding how they compare in measurement does give some valuable real-world insight. The problem with the Pro37 isn't its off-axis response . . . it's its all-axis response. The polars hold together okay like the theory predicts from a SDC . . . but it doesn't matter because it has such a crappy response everywhere. And the U89Ai is so wonderfully smooth and musical to begin with, that having some undulations in the polar response (which are very small for an LDC) isn't that much to worry about.

More realistically though, when choosing between two more comparable microphones of different types for a live application . . . in my case maybe a Schoeps CCM4 and a Neumann TLM193 . . . I do find it helps to understand the natural strengths and weaknesses that come along with their most fundamental design decisions. For me, it gives precise, logical reasons behind the question as to why different types of excellent products can produce different types of excellent subjective performance, and what their Achilles' heel may be in application. (BTW, there's no LDC that's even in the same league with the CCM4 in terms of polar-response consistency.)

So yes, I continue to feel that when shopping for live-sound use amongst the multitude of moderately-priced condensers . . . choosing an LDC brings the necessity of being more cognizant of idiosyncrasies in their off-axis response. And if you're in a situation where you're packed on a tight stage, musicians and/or monitors around you may be loud, feedback has been a concern, and you're not in control of the sound (somebody else is mixing) . . . spending $300-$400 for an SDC is a safer bet in getting good, consistent results than spending a similar amount on an LDC.

But I'll shut up about it now . . . probably overdue . . .
Old 1 week ago
  #76
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I’m not against serious scientific testing and study, I am a (real) engineer...but at the end of the day I’m going to put the mic on a stand in front of the source and take a good listen before I make a decision. Because while they’re important, the measurements will not tell me everything or cover ‘every’ real-world situation.

I still say that you should be careful about stating your opinions as if they are facts, many people here do not have the knowledge or experience to weed out the facts from the abundant fiction. There are many (me included) who would disagree with your ‘opinion’ of the CCM4....maybe you’ve tested it against every LDC.
Old 1 week ago
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I still say that you should be careful about stating your opinions as if they are facts, many people here do not have the knowledge or experience to weed out the facts from the abundant fiction. There are many (me included) who would disagree with your ‘opinion’ of the CCM4....maybe you’ve tested it against every LDC.
There's a good chance that I'll have the speaker/mic polar test rig set up at some point in the next year or so . . . and I do own the CCM4s. If you have any suggestions of an LDC that would prove my conclusions wrong . . . provided it's common enough to borrow or rent, it's feasible that I could test it. Seriously, I respect where you're coming from, and I'd do such a thing just to satisfy my own curiosity.
Old 1 week ago
  #78
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Test some Brauner and MBHO microphones...
Old 4 days ago
  #79
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
SDC versus LDC
here's another opinion on condenser mics:

most of my jobs consist of putting up some 20-40 condenser mics (no clips) and maybe a dozen dynamics; i have the option of putting up sdc and/or ldc mics.

if less mics are required, i go by what i think suits the instrument/soloist best (mostly a combination of sdc and ldc). beyond 12-16 condensers, i feel more comfortable with the majority beeing sdc due to the fact that some ldc have a hotter output than most sdc and therefore may be seen more critical in a live situation...
Old 4 days ago
  #80
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Thread Starter
10 more shows to go and have ran into some issues.

Kick Drum mic works perfectly, no issues. No surprises there.

2 issues that work as one.

I play very lightly 60-70% of the time with brushes and rods.
The overheads (SM81s) have to be pushed down so close to the cymbals to pick up my playing. This interferes with my playing because I am playing around 2 mics. The other part of the issue is that I am very close to the mains so the more the overheads are turned up, the more they feedback. A lot of people after the show commented how they could see me doing a lot of playing, but they couldn't hear it.
Old 4 days ago
  #81
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightmeanslove View Post
10 more shows to go and have ran into some issues.

Kick Drum mic works perfectly, no issues. No surprises there.

2 issues that work as one.

I play very lightly 60-70% of the time with brushes and rods.
The overheads (SM81s) have to be pushed down so close to the cymbals to pick up my playing. This interferes with my playing because I am playing around 2 mics. The other part of the issue is that I am very close to the mains so the more the overheads are turned up, the more they feedback. A lot of people after the show commented how they could see me doing a lot of playing, but they couldn't hear it.
So i see 2 options, play harder or move the drums.
Old 4 days ago
  #82
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Thread Starter
I'll just tell everyone else to play quieter
Old 4 days ago
  #83
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There's no magic, play louder. Everybody else playing quieter won't make the mics pick up your playing...
Old 4 days ago
  #84
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Thread Starter
I was being a sarcastic smart ass.

I'm already at the max at what brushes will project. I can use sticks on on the few that rods are usually used, but not on the brush work pieces.

Moving is not an option either.
Old 4 days ago
  #85
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Old 3 days ago
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightmeanslove View Post
I was being a sarcastic smart ass.

I'm already at the max at what brushes will project. I can use sticks on on the few that rods are usually used, but not on the brush work pieces.

Moving is not an option either.
While i believe your problem is real, i have never experienced cymbals not being loud enough before, the volume of the cymbals is the main issue, yes?
If the mics are close and the engineer knows what they are doing, i am at a loss. Do you have a pic of the stage set up?

You dont have to 81s pointing into a close by monitor do you?

Last edited by GreenNeedle; 3 days ago at 04:28 PM..
Old 3 days ago
  #87
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Thread Starter
Sounds crazy, I get it. Most other gigs there are other solutions like moving the drummer, isolating, more drum channels to work with, less instruments to compete with, less monitors on stage, or in this case a more experienced sound man who can think of solutions rather than a "this is here, this is the mic you use unless you bring your own" old bat mentality.

There is a monitor close by but the mics are never pointed at them.
Old 3 days ago
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightmeanslove View Post
Sounds crazy, I get it. Most other gigs there are other solutions like moving the drummer, isolating, more drum channels to work with, less instruments to compete with, less monitors on stage, or in this case a more experienced sound man who can think of solutions rather than a "this is here, this is the mic you use unless you bring your own" old bat mentality.

There is a monitor close by but the mics are never pointed at them.
That would be your main contender for feedback, can you take the 81s out of those mons? If the 81s are pointing toward the floor and the mons are on the floor that is good enough to cause trouble, especially if the 81s are hot.

You could swap the 81s for 57/8s and probably solve the problem too. Dynamics were used for years as oh's.
Old 3 days ago
  #89
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If convenient . . . I also wouldn't mind seeing a pic of your setup, if even just to see the arrangement you work with given the variety of instruments.
Old 3 days ago
  #90
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Thread Starter
Don't have a picture, but can paint the scene.

Starting stage left and moving right there is drums, next is usually piano, Cello, violin with vocal, stand up bass, banjo/mandolin with vocal, guitar with vocal, Harp with vocal, and an additional vocalist that does some hand percussion at times like tamborine or shaker.

4 monitors across the stage in front of musicians. Average stage width is about 36-40ft.
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