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600 seat Church Install
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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Thread Starter
600 seat Church Install

I am doing an Install in a Church and I am not 100% sure on what speakers I should use, I am looking at the DXR15 (4-6 with at least 4 delays) or 2 DSR 215 with 2-4 DSR115 for delays. I am not exactly sure how the throw with these speakers will be in such a large open venue. I have used them a lot before in mid-small size venues before and they sound great. I will need to hang them permanently in the Venue.

Any recommendations on overhead choir mics would be appreciated as well, I have not used them before. I am Micing a choir of about 20 people that are on an elevated platform at the back of the Church(in front of the PA).
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I am doing an Install in a Church and I am not 100% sure on what speakers I should use, I am looking at the DXR15 (4-6 with at least 4 delays) or 2 DSR 215 with 2-4 DSR115 for delays. I am not exactly sure how the throw with these speakers will be in such a large open venue. I have used them a lot before in mid-small size venues before and they sound great. I will need to hang them permanently in the Venue.

Any recommendations on overhead choir mics would be appreciated as well, I have not used them before. I am Micing a choir of about 20 people that are on an elevated platform at the back of the Church(in front of the PA).
The almost total lack of information pertaining to the room dimensions and shape, the type of sound to be reproduced and the expectations of clergy, music ministry and congregation hints at a critical lack of the experience required to design and install sound equipment in a public space.

You also should specify how power will be supplied where needed, signal cable routing and who will provide the engineering certification for the hanging of any speakers. Are you bonded and insured to do this type of work? If not, you will almost certainly void any liability coverage the facility has.

Sorry, but the make and model of the speakers are not the problem.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I am doing an Install in a Church and I am not 100% sure on what speakers I should use, I am looking at the DXR15 (4-6 with at least 4 delays) or 2 DSR 215 with 2-4 DSR115 for delays. I am not exactly sure how the throw with these speakers will be in such a large open venue. I have used them a lot before in mid-small size venues before and they sound great. I will need to hang them permanently in the Venue.

Any recommendations on overhead choir mics would be appreciated as well, I have not used them before. I am Micing a choir of about 20 people that are on an elevated platform at the back of the Church(in front of the PA).
Get a professional installer to handle the job.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

I have to say, I don't think Wyllys or Samc are wrong.

How can you sell yourself to clients - who will be expecting a professional service - when you clearly do not understand what you are doing?

It's ethically wrong that you could perform an install, taking somebody else's money, on the basis of advice you received on an internet forum.

Pass the job up to a local professional. For your own benefit. Doing a bad job isn't in the best interests of you, or the client.
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Gear Nut
 

Will you also install a processor for the delay, or will you just hang the speakers? Can you calculate where to install the delay lines?
Maybe a photo of the venue would help.

Is it an ancient church or a modern one? Depending on when they have been built, they'll be acoustically very different. And I'd try to have a system as coherent as possible to the place and the feeling it gives you.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Dutchy15's Avatar
"If you don't know, say so - mind your own business and let it alone."

Clearly you don't know what you're doing if you are asking such questions here. Leave this job to a professional or you will convert yet another house of worship to the growing group of churches that believe the only good PA is a line-array


Miking a choir is not necessarily difficult but overhead mics are generally no good, people sing forward rather than upward don't they?

Also, 15" woofers for delay speakers would seem a bit overkill to me. Pictures and specifications of the room (both technical and acoustical) are necessary here. Depending on the shape you might not need any delays at all. Have you thought about cable runs, acces to power and the distribution of that power? Any subwoofers? Which controls will be used to feed the PA (desk, outboard, system processing, etc.)?

How will you decide whether any delays are necessary? And how will you align them?


Dutchy
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

This group has been very helpful to a number of persons seeking help with church installs over the last several months (at least). They're being honest and helpful here also. A person, whether volunteer or not, offering technical services to a church of 600 needs to know substantially more than what you're showing to provide an ethical proposition. The best consultation you can provide the church is to hire a professional with experience doing installs of that size to work with you.

The Yamaha speakers you mentioned are basically portable speakers for temporary setup by DJ's, weddings, and bar bands. Some churches under 75 people might use them in leased or rented spaces. Speakers for a 600 seat auditorium install are a completely different category. It's not that they cost more than a half-dozen DXR's, but that they are optimized for installations to meet the requirements of a particular space. It isn't just a brand or model because every space is different.

But the speakers are just one point, and you cannot do well to resolve that issue alone. There are much more substantial challenges you are facing that a professional can help you with. Find a few options, meet with them a first time, and then ask questions about which one you should continue to work with.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Calneva: It doesn't need to be a 'professional consultant' as you are making it sound like, that'll probably be costly and unnecessary.

Realistically, this is a job that you can hand over to a decent PA hire / sales company and they will handle it. The benefit of this approach is they'll likely absorb the consultancy fee into the sale and install price. So you won't pay for their knowledge, in addition to the supply and install - it'll be included.

This isn't a major complex job. But it's still a job for somebody who doesn't know enough, that they have to ask the internet for help.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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The company that takes on this job should be experienced, licensed and insured...If the so called "decent PA hire / sales company" does not have these three things they should not qualify to manage this project in my opinion...and depending on where the church is located they may not legally qualify either.
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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Thread Starter
I love the assumptions in this community....

I have over 10 years experience in live events,Corporate events, Bar gigs to 30,000+ festivals. Mainly audio and video. I have done over 15 bar installs(much higher budget then this church job)I also do lighting and rigging.I mainly mix FOH these days usually on a X32 or Digi venue, if its analog I prefer Midas. I am also CM and TourStar Certified.(cheaper to fix your hoists on the road)

I already have the cable runs/picks and power mapped out(2x 30 amp drops, one beside the choir and one at the back of the venue and a 60 amp drop at the panel if i need it) I appreciate the concern but this is a very easy install that I am doing pretty much Pro Bono, just the cost of gear and any labor I need to hire. The church wants the job at under 10K, thats why I am looking at cheaper active speakers I can get at a good price, I am not going to quote a VDOSC system on that budget. I already have 2 mixers a 32 band EQ and a delay unit picked out.

why on earth would you install a Line Array in a church.....

The choir and Clergy are very happy with the volume of the band/organ, they just want the vocals more prominent and full coverage in the venue.

I am looking at overhead choir mics because this is what the client requested.... I suggested standard vocals mics on stands(group and solo), the client did not want this as they don't want to tear it down in between services and avoid the risk of theft.

All I wanted was suggestions on some comparable speakers meant for installs.... Again I was looking at something cheap(in the budget) That I have used before and would provide ample coverage for vocals in the venue.

I admit I should have given more detail about the venue and requirements of the job, I made the post after working a 16 hour Corp gig so I should have thought it threw a lot more.

The Floor is a medium carpet, walls are brick with a deep(1/2") indent in between each row of bricks. The ceiling is 3 stories high at the alter sloping to 2 stories high at the back of the venue. The ceiling is white stucco with 5 I-beams in an arching pattern from the alter one is dead center(the one I plan to fly speakers on). Wooden Pews, the building itself is not that old about 1980s construction. The acoustics in the Venue are very airy, almost like an arena but in a much smaller building, the high ceiling and heat during a summer service makes the high end hard to hear in the center middle and back.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

This is just a rough layout I put together to give you guys a better idea, I am still waiting on floor plans from the venue.
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
The company that takes on this job should be experienced, licensed and insured...If the so called "decent PA hire / sales company" does not have these three things they should not qualify to manage this project in my opinion...and depending on where the church is located they may not legally qualify either.
I have an Incorporated business with 2 Million in liability insurance. I have done 7 bar/medium venue installs in the last 8 months all of which but one I sold L'acoustic Arc systems to and they could not be happier. My issue with this job is the budget. I have never used cheap speakers on installs or done a church before but from what they want its not much different then corporate, clear vocals are the most important thing to them, the band is already loud enough.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I am doing an Install in a Church and I am not 100% sure on what speakers I should use, I am looking at the DXR15 (4-6 with at least 4 delays) or 2 DSR 215 with 2-4 DSR115 for delays. I am not exactly sure how the throw with these speakers will be in such a large open venue. I have used them a lot before in mid-small size venues before and they sound great. I will need to hang them permanently in the Venue.

Any recommendations on overhead choir mics would be appreciated as well, I have not used them before. I am Micing a choir of about 20 people that are on an elevated platform at the back of the Church(in front of the PA).
Why are you doing this job? There is more to it than throwing up some speakers and mics. Do you know what PAGNAG is?
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Will you be using the "cheap" loudspeakers based solely on internet recommendations or will you test different models before making a choice?

In principle, there is nothing wrong with hanging the microphones from the ceiling...but if the acoustics of the room are not good be prepared for a world of hurt.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
Calneva: It doesn't need to be a 'professional consultant' as you are making it sound like, that'll probably be costly and unnecessary.

Realistically, this is a job that you can hand over to a decent PA hire / sales company and they will handle it. The benefit of this approach is they'll likely absorb the consultancy fee into the sale and install price. So you won't pay for their knowledge, in addition to the supply and install - it'll be included.

This isn't a major complex job. But it's still a job for somebody who doesn't know enough, that they have to ask the internet for help.
If you select the correct firm, consulting may be part of the package. There are too many unknown variables for any professional with a clue to offer help. No professional would. Why would they?

If the church is serious, they should be considering legit insured business, with excellent references, doing this as their primary vertical.

I think it is laughable that people assume highly educated, experienced, certified professionals are a waste of money. How many of you like working for free? You probably aren't any good at what you do, and aren't in demand, if you do.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhandy View Post
Why are you doing this job? There is more to it than throwing up some speakers and mics. Do you know what PAGNAG is?
the "more" part of it I don't need advice on, pretty sure I made that clear. I only use the acoustic gain formula for small conference rooms. I use SMAART and a earthworks M23 to ring out every PA I set up/install. I never have a problem with feed back.(unless the vocalist has no idea what mic control is)
Old 1 week ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post

I have over 10 years experience in live events,Corporate events, Bar gigs to 30,000+ festivals. Mainly audio and video. I have done over 15 bar installs(much higher budget then this church job)I also do lighting and rigging.I mainly mix FOH these days usually on a X32 or Digi venue, if its analog I prefer Midas. I am also CM and TourStar Certified.(cheaper to fix your hoists on the road)

And I still need to ask a bunch of random strangers on the internet which speakers to use in my installs
Fixed for you, free of charge


Also on a side note, why do you make reference to the fact that you're CM and TourStar motor certified. I would not go to a motor workshop to ask for a speaker install.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post

why on earth would you install a Line Array in a church.....
Because choosing line array is about looking at the room, the source material, the audience, the desired levels on- and off-site, etc etc.

Some churches will absolutely need a line array. Some absolutely will not. Some could go either way. But looking at the picture you've given, I wouldn't rule out arrays. It could be quite sensible, depending on of course - everything else.

Quote:
I have done 7 bar/medium venue installs in the last 8 months all of which but one I sold L'acoustic Arc systems to and they could not be happier.
So how come you sold L'Acoustics line array systems to all the other venues, but this venue doesn't require one? Why is the church - just because it's a church - less in need of / suited to, a line array; than a bar or medium venue?
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Will you be using the "cheap" loudspeakers based solely on internet recommendations or will you test different models before making a choice?

In principle, there is nothing wrong with hanging the microphones from the ceiling...but if the acoustics of the room are not good be prepared for a world of hurt.
I have used the DXR and DXS as last min monitor replacements and once at a small bar show I went to a few months ago, I was quite surprised at the sound from them, nice mid-range, clear high end, bass is lacking without a sub but the church dose not want or need a sub. I wanted recommendations on similar(spec wise) speakers meant for installs.
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
Because choosing line array is about looking at the room, the source material, the audience, the desired levels on- and off-site, etc etc.

Some churches will absolutely need a line array. Some absolutely will not. Some could go either way. But looking at the picture you've given, I wouldn't rule out arrays. It could be quite sensible, depending on of course - everything else.



So how come you sold L'Acoustics line array systems to all the other venues, but this venue doesn't require one? Why is the church - just because it's a church - less in need of / suited to, a line array; than a bar or medium venue?
I have said, the budget is very limited, I am doing this Pro Bono.

I would love to install an L'Acoustic system, but they can't afford it.

For this particular denomination a Line Array will never happen, its too big and dose not fit aesthetically with the church.

The Churches in my area are all quite small so I would never consider a line array, its just massive overkill.
Old 1 week ago
  #20
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
Fixed for you, free of charge


Also on a side note, why do you make reference to the fact that you're CM and TourStar motor certified. I would not go to a motor workshop to ask for a speaker install.
I don't know cheap gear and I am not afraid to admit it, I don't like using it and I try to stay away from it, usually causes nothing but problems. However I am forced to look at cheaper gear for this job so I wanted recommendations on what the best value for the money is.

I mentioned my motor certs to quell any doubts about my rigging ability.

Most companies would disagree with you, using one company/vendor for all your A/V needs is much easier then going to 5 different one. When something breaks/ stops working 99% of the time the client calls who ever installed/sold it to them, so why would I not get certified to fix what I sell if I can make more money while doing it?
Old 1 week ago
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I would love to install an L'Acoustic system, but they can't afford it.

For this particular denomination a Line Array will never happen, its too big and dose not fit aesthetically with the church.

The Churches in my area are all quite small so I would never consider a line array, its just massive overkill.
You know that ARCS is a Line Array, right?

I'm not saying you should be using an array, but I think to dismiss the technology on the basis of size is wrong. Line arrays are more about coverage, than actual size of the venue. There are some extremely small arrays available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I mentioned my motor certs to quell any doubts about my rigging ability.

Most companies would disagree with you, using one company/vendor for all your A/V needs is much easier then going to 5 different one. When something breaks/ stops working 99% of the time the client calls who ever installed/sold it to them, so why would I not get certified to fix what I sell if I can make more money while doing it?
1) Being a motor tech doesn't make you a qualified rigger. The 2 are completely different. No rigging skills are taught on the motor course.

2) Most companies would not disagree with me. If you need motors servicing you go to a motor servicing company. If you need a PA you go to a PA company. If you need a PA you do not go to a motor servicing company.

Yes it's good if the PA company can service their own motors. But my point is that being qualified to fix motors will not win you any work installing speakers!
Old 1 week ago
  #22
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
You know that ARCS is a Line Array, right?

I'm not saying you should be using an array, but I think to dismiss the technology on the basis of size is wrong. Line arrays are more about coverage, than actual size of the venue. There are some extremely small arrays available.



1) Being a motor tech doesn't make you a qualified rigger. The 2 are completely different. No rigging skills are taught on the motor course.

2) Most companies would not disagree with me. If you need motors servicing you go to a motor servicing company. If you need a PA you go to a PA company. If you need a PA you do not go to a motor servicing company.

Yes it's good if the PA company can service their own motors. But my point is that being qualified to fix motors will not win you any work installing speakers!
I would not use ARCs for a full line array, I generally do larger scale then that if its a line array, and I usually use the K-Series for that.

I use ARCs flying 2-3 at a time max, usually 2 on 1 sub stage left and right is what i use for bar installs.

I should look at some smaller line arrays its been quite awhile.

We can talk about line arrays all day but all of this is out of their budget....

I do know a few motor techs who can't Rig for ****, but its pretty rare.

A company that only services motors is rare, usually your distributor will repair them, at a large cost. This is why alot of companies do it in-house

a lot of companies already do this...

Solo Tech

PRG

Christie Lites(yes I know, a lighting company, that also sells and services motors)

Clair Brothers

I can keep going...
Old 1 week ago
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

You're not getting the points.

1) ARCS is line array so if you spec ARCS you are spec'ing a line array.

2) No it isn't rare at all. Motor techs do not need to have any rigging ability because their job is to fix motors. You do not need any rigging training to be a motor tech (or any extensive motor knowledge to be a rigger). Motor techs normally work in the hire company's workshop... not on the arena beams.

3) I am not denying that many lighting companies and PA companies own motors, and service their own motors. But if somebody chooses PRG to light their tour, it's not because they can service their own motors, is it? It's because they can do the lighting that the LD wants, at the price the production wants to pay. Their ability to service their own motors will not be of any benefit or hinderance to them getting the gig. It's not the LD's problem. Likewise, no PA installer will ever be chosen because they can fix their own motors. They'll be chosen because they can supply the PA that the designer / engineer wants for the budget the production wants to pay.

It is like claiming that somebody would choose a particular car because the manufacturer services their own air compressors.
Old 1 week ago
  #24
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
You're not getting the points.

1) ARCS is line array so if you spec ARCS you are spec'ing a line array.

2) No it isn't rare at all. Motor techs do not need to have any rigging ability because their job is to fix motors. You do not need any rigging training to be a motor tech (or any extensive motor knowledge to be a rigger). Motor techs normally work in the hire company's workshop... not on the arena beams.

3) I am not denying that many lighting companies and PA companies own motors, and service their own motors. But if somebody chooses PRG to light their tour, it's not because they can service their own motors, is it? It's because they can do the lighting that the LD wants, at the price the production wants to pay. Their ability to service their own motors will not be of any benefit or hinderance to them getting the gig. It's not the LD's problem. Likewise, no PA installer will ever be chosen because they can fix their own motors. They'll be chosen because they can supply the PA that the designer / engineer wants for the budget the production wants to pay.

It is like claiming that somebody would choose a particular car because the manufacturer services their own air compressors.
1- ARC is a Line SOURCE speaker, LINE ARRAY is a grouping of speakers flying and or arranged in a line. Hence the term- Line Array - some clarity on the definition

2- In my personal experience all of the motor techs I know(about 23 at last count) only 2 of them have no rigging experience, most of the motor techs I know are on tour or if they are working in a shop its after at least 10-20 years of touring, rigging almost every day.

3- I never said/expected to get any job solely based on the fact I have motor certs. All I said is why not service your own gear and gear you have installed to make more money. This is why the other guys do it too, to lower costs and have an addition source of income/another service you can offer to your clients to make their life easier.

If a company matches a competitors price and throws in 5 years of service on all the motors. What contract are 99% of people going to take?(on a install)

the fact that a company can do it all makes it very appealing and generally cheaper then getting 3-5 other specialist companies to do the job.
Old 1 week ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
1- ARC is a Line SOURCE speaker, LINE ARRAY is a grouping of speakers flying and or arranged in a line. Hence the term- Line Array - some clarity on the definition
Yes so if you're flying 2-3 of them then is that not a 'grouping'?

Quote:
2- In my personal experience all of the motor techs I know(about 23 at last count) only 2 of them have no rigging experience, most of the motor techs I know are on tour or if they are working in a shop its after at least 10-20 years of touring, rigging almost every day.
OK well that might be true... but the point is that having a motor tech certificate does not prove that you are a competent rigger. Are you ETCP certified too? That would be what I would list.

Quote:
3- I never said/expected to get any job solely based on the fact I have motor certs. All I said is why not service your own gear and gear you have installed to make more money. This is why the other guys do it too, to lower costs and have an addition source of income/another service you can offer to your clients to make their life easier.
Well why did you list the certs then? I just don't understand what you were trying to get at by saying that you are suitably qualified and competent to take on a job installing PA speakers in a church because you're a certified motor tech.

Quote:
If a company matches a competitors price and throws in 5 years of service on all the motors. What contract are 99% of people going to take?(on a install)
99% of people will go for the contract with the company who has offered to do the best job, and has the best reputation. Again if I was choosing 1 of 2 cars, I would not choose one on the basis that the manufacturer offers to perform 5 years of free servicing on my lawn mower.
Old 1 week ago
  #26
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by de003 View Post
Yes so if you're flying 2-3 of them then is that not a 'grouping'?



OK well that might be true... but the point is that having a motor tech certificate does not prove that you are a competent rigger. Are you ETCP certified too? That would be what I would list.



Well why did you list the certs then? I just don't understand what you were trying to get at by saying that you are suitably qualified and competent to take on a job installing PA speakers in a church because you're a certified motor tech.



99% of people will go for the contract with the company who has offered to do the best job, and has the best reputation. Again if I was choosing 1 of 2 cars, I would not choose one on the basis that the manufacturer offers to perform 5 years of free servicing on my lawn mower.

3-4 speakers barely counts as a line array. I mean technically sure, but its a sad excuse for one, go big or go home.

My point in saying why I got my motor cert was that I fly PA so often I made more money by getting my motor cert, subtext- I fly a lot of PAs so I have a lot of experience in Rigging.

ETCP is pretty pointless as it stands, (for me as a business owner) personally anyway, it will look good on a resume but that's about it. It provides no cost savings, insurance or otherwise and its not required so I don't see a point in spending money on it. I know a few guys who got Rig Star certs and they all say its just a waste of money, experience is what you need.

99% of people take the contract with the best price and or value for the money nowadays, experience and reputation do count but saving money counts more, that's the post recession economy for you.
Old 1 week ago
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

This isn't the first time we've seen a church with no budget but an awesome sound pro working pro-bono to help them out. Why would you want to tarnish your reputation with the poor results that will come spending a wedding DJ budget on a 600 seat auditorium? And why would you want to enable the church to waste their scarce resources on something that will give a poor result? Those little resources they do have could be contributing toward a proper solution. The church might need to be helped in their resolve to do the job properly because of their lack of understanding in what is required to do so. As a knowledgeable sound professional, it's your responsibility to advise them accordingly. By refusing to be involved in a half-assed solution, you would be sending the clearest message to the church's leadership of the result they can expect.
Old 1 week ago
  #28
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calneva View Post
This isn't the first time we've seen a church with no budget but an awesome sound pro working pro-bono to help them out. Why would you want to tarnish your reputation with the poor results that will come spending a wedding DJ budget on a 600 seat auditorium? And why would you want to enable the church to waste their scarce resources on something that will give a poor result? Those little resources they do have could be contributing toward a proper solution. The church might need to be helped in their resolve to do the job properly because of their lack of understanding in what is required to do so. As a knowledgeable sound professional, it's your responsibility to advise them accordingly. By refusing to be involved in a half-assed solution, you would be sending the clearest message to the church's leadership of the result they can expect.
Thanks, best advice I have gotten so far.

I have already tried to convince them their budget is far too small, I am just going to quote a proper install, probably 4 Arc Wides. They can increase their budget or not do it at all.
Old 1 week ago
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
My point in saying why I got my motor cert was that I fly PA so often I made more money by getting my motor cert, subtext- I fly a lot of PAs so I have a lot of experience in Rigging.

ETCP is pretty pointless as it stands, (for me as a business owner) personally anyway, it will look good on a resume but that's about it. It provides no cost savings, insurance or otherwise and its not required so I don't see a point in spending money on it. I know a few guys who got Rig Star certs and they all say its just a waste of money, experience is what you need.
Sorry, we will have to disagree - I still do not see a correlation between having a motor servicing certificate and being competent in rigging, or flying PAs. (That's because there isn't one). I am a former head rigger at a major hire company and my workshop techs were all CM and LEEA certified and none had ever flown a PA. The two are completely separate. Your conclusion seems to be that all mechanics are automatically good at driving.

ETCP is far more relevant in proving you are competent in rigging, than a CM motor tech certificate. ETCP actually requires knowledge of rigging. (The British NRC is the one to really have - as it actually requires a theory and 2 practical tests, as well as work-based experience signed off by other qualified riggers).

It's all irrelevant to this but I still think that you cannot go round telling people you are competent to install a flown PA because you are certified to service chain hoists!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I have already tried to convince them their budget is far too small, I am just going to quote a proper install, probably 4 Arc Wides. They can increase their budget or not do it at all.
So a line array then? Ironic seeing that 5 posts ago, you would never install a line array in a church! But I'm glad we got that cleared up anyway
Old 1 week ago
  #30
Gear Nut
 

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Originally Posted by mastodon View Post
I have an Incorporated business with 2 Million in liability insurance. I have done 7 bar/medium venue installs in the last 8 months all of which but one I sold L'acoustic Arc systems to and they could not be happier. My issue with this job is the budget. I have never used cheap speakers on installs or done a church before but from what they want its not much different then corporate, clear vocals are the most important thing to them, the band is already loud enough.
And yet, you don't know how to engineer a job. This business is full of people like you, screwing churches.
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