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AKG d112 or Shure beta 52a for live kick drum
Old 2nd March 2017
  #121
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
This is an intolerable interpretation of what I wrote but of course makes Roland happy ... OK you want the extended version and here it is as another test of reading difficulties (as you know perhaps 'reading' is not the process of picking one sequence of a post that slightly rotated gives a support to one's own opinion):

When i started my career as a sound engineer in 1976 there was no D112 (launch 1986). The microphones used for kick drum were D12, RE20, M88, MD421 that's it. In that times even the most beautifull live sound console midas pro had no sweepable but switchable filter frequencies in the early models and even with its latest extended featured input module pro40 with sweepable frequencies there was definitly no sweepable bandwidth. I had two of the D12E (horrible because the screws keeping the dynamic motor in its suspension got loose every month) and i soon prefered the RE20 using exactly the same arguments as you use today (sounding 'neutral', gives the most genuine sound of the source, gives a maximum of freedom in using EQ an so on ...).

When the D112 came out in 1986 i frequently used a Soundcraft 800B (launch 1984) with no sweepable bandwith input filters and using the two semi-sweepable mid filters in any extend allways produced the 'cardboardie' thing absolutely inacceptable for the style of music and the artists i worked for in Germany ( Earth, Wind & Fire, Chaka Khan, Mother's Finest and so on ... ) So in that time that microphone came out of my interest and i didn't do any further tests on the D112 when the XL3 (launch 1990) PM400 (launch 1992) i worked on came out.

The Beta52 (launch 1989) also was not mine and reinforced my bias on the preshaped kick microphones long before the D6 was launched.

Meanwhile i learned a lot about the physics of microphones thanks to the support of microphone manufacturers like Schoeps ( based in my home town ), Beyerdynamic and my studies in electroacoustic engineering.
One of the fundamentals about the electrodynamic transducer design is that without adding any damping and resonators to the transducer itself the frequency range of each of those microphones would be as midrangy as you never would expect from a microphone. That helped to become tolerant to the shaping and gave me the insight, that there is no dynamic microphone that can be called 'neutral'.

Today i have about 480 microphones in my inventory know the colour of each of them and know which one to use for which sound desired and needless to say also know how to process them for the desired result and the D6 is one that gives usefull results with the right treatment for a certain wanted sound as many others do you are used to work with.
Ok so what are you saying? Forget the D112, B52, Sennheiser 421, M88, RE20, the D6 is a better alrounder than any of those?

I'm not going to argue that on the right drum, with a compatible style of music or used in conjunction with another mic, it might get you a good sound, it's not for me, but then some people like the Audix om's, go figure.

We've come a long way off topic which originally was B52 or D112, pretty obvious reading the thread the B52 is more popular in here. My only bug bear is the suggestion the D6 is as versatile as a B52, it isn't, not even close for all the reasons Samc said.
Old 2nd March 2017
  #122
Gear Nut
 

As every one can see now ... reading difficulties ... ... and no, no, no it's not my english ... think about your german ... and read twice ... does anything in my post read 'D6 better as' ? ... no i wrote 'as many others do you are used to work with' ... is there anything missunderstandable? Am i in toto way off topic to D112 and B52? ...

Last edited by gundula; 2nd March 2017 at 10:44 PM..
Old 2nd March 2017
  #123
Gear Nut
 

But ... perhaps this may help and give an adequate information on topic and to the leading authors of this thread:
Nowadays in Germany D112 is frequently called 'the youth center kick microphone' ...

Last edited by gundula; 2nd March 2017 at 10:59 PM..
Old 4th March 2017
  #124
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
This is an intolerable interpretation of what I wrote but of course makes Roland happy ... OK you want the extended version and here it is as another test of reading difficulties (as you know perhaps 'reading' is not the process of picking one sequence of a post that slightly rotated gives a support to one's own opinion):

When i started my career as a sound engineer in 1976 there was no D112 (launch 1986). The microphones used for kick drum were D12, RE20, M88, MD421 that's it. In that times even the most beautifull live sound console midas pro had no sweepable but switchable filter frequencies in the early models and even with its latest extended featured input module pro40 with sweepable frequencies there was definitly no sweepable bandwidth. I had two of the D12E (horrible because the screws keeping the dynamic motor in its suspension got loose every month) and i soon prefered the RE20 using exactly the same arguments as you use today (sounding 'neutral', gives the most genuine sound of the source, gives a maximum of freedom in using EQ an so on ...).

When the D112 came out in 1986 i frequently used a Soundcraft 800B (launch 1984) with no sweepable bandwith input filters and using the two semi-sweepable mid filters in any extend allways produced the 'cardboardie' thing absolutely inacceptable for the style of music and the artists i worked for in Germany ( Earth, Wind & Fire, Chaka Khan, Mother's Finest and so on ... ) So in that time that microphone came out of my interest and i didn't do any further tests on the D112 when the XL3 (launch 1990) PM400 (launch 1992) i worked on came out.

The Beta52 (launch 1989) also was not mine and reinforced my bias on the preshaped kick microphones long before the D6 was launched.

Meanwhile i learned a lot about the physics of microphones thanks to the support of microphone manufacturers like Schoeps ( based in my home town ), Beyerdynamic and my studies in electroacoustic engineering.
One of the fundamentals about the electrodynamic transducer design is that without adding any damping and resonators to the transducer itself the frequency range of each of those microphones would be as midrangy as you never would expect from a microphone. That helped to become tolerant to the shaping and gave me the insight, that there is no dynamic microphone that can be called 'neutral'.

Today i have about 480 microphones in my inventory know the colour of each of them and know which one to use for which sound desired and needless to say also know how to process them for the desired result and the D6 is one that gives usefull results with the right treatment for a certain wanted sound as many others do you are used to work with.
FWIW, I found your information on eq for the D112 very useful. I no longer own one, but the darned things are out there like mosquito's in the swamp and I find myself working with them from time to time if I like it or not

Next time I may have a better chance of getting the "cardboard" out of the sound!
Old 4th March 2017
  #125
Lives for gear
 

I am flabbergasted that it literally took you guys years to figure out how to use this microphone...I mean really!?!? Don't you know what to cut or boost once you hear the sound? Okay, you can't identify frequencies but don't you guys experiment when you're not gigging...try different things just because?

You're not curious to know what will happen if you twist that knob with that mic connected and pointed at that instrument? You don't ask questions when you don't understand something?
Old 4th March 2017
  #126
Gear Nut
 

OK Sam I unterstand. Too many words for someone who writes much but reads less. Strongly simplified my strange time lack results from:
Not enough EQ in the ancient consoles inputs to do it to taste with D112 in 1986 -> no need and no interest to do it on that single microphone later. But after all i was able at least to observe and understand what the colleague did. Are you completely free from making such "mistakes"?

Last edited by gundula; 4th March 2017 at 03:14 PM..
Old 4th March 2017
  #127
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
OK Sam I unterstand. Too many words for someone who writes much but reads less. Strongly simplified my strange time lack results from:
Not enough EQ in the ancient consoles inputs to do it to taste with D112 in 1986 -> no need and no interest to do it on that single microphone later. But after all i was able at least to observe and understand what the colleague did. Are you completely free from making such "mistakes"?
I'm pretty sure the other people who used it and made it the most popular bass drum mic in 1986 were using the same consoles as you were back then...just sayin'.
Old 4th March 2017
  #128
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I'm pretty sure the other people who used it and made it the most popular bass drum mic in 1986 were using the same consoles as you were back then...just sayin'.
Are you shure to know what was 'most popular' in 1986?

When i open the mic drawers of the bigger hire companies everyone has D112s but everyone has three to four times more Beta52s for example so what is this information good for?

... and 'the popularity':

1. Price cheap new as well as the thousands cheaper in the used gear market -> good way for a microphone to live in a youth centre
2. name of the company getting famous long before the launch of D112 and with lots of totally different products
3. shape 'the egg' good for human memory and good for marketing

......

Last edited by gundula; 4th March 2017 at 06:40 PM..
Old 4th March 2017
  #129
Gear Nut
 

ah...Sam ... may i help your Memory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
... the usual microphone choices are SM57 on snare top and bottom, MD 421 on toms and EV RE20 or a combination of SM91 and a B52 on kick. ..... a boost in 4k-5k region for the "click" on the kick plus a rediction of the low mid centered at around 200Hz and a wide Q boost at around 63Hz (I've seen this technique credited to Metalica but was already being used in the early 70's in Jamaican Dub) ...
it's like we all know ...

Old 4th March 2017
  #130
Gear Nut
 

quotation of a recording newspaper about the microphones recording engineers used to use or used to endorse... Not very helpfull information for judging live sound reality.
My estimation is like 'OneEng' supposed:
It's not about microphones, it's about obstinacy and having the last word.
Old 4th March 2017
  #131
Gear Nut
 

@ OneEng
It's not human, it's a loop, endless repeating and locked for taking up any new information...
Old 8th March 2017
  #132
Lives for gear
 
Wyllys's Avatar
 

I, too, have hundreds of mics including a couple of D-6's. I'd rank them in the lowest 5% of the inventory for usability. They live in the barn with the rest of the horses, but they really are a one-triCK pony.
Old 8th March 2017
  #133
Lives for gear
 
norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
I, too, have hundreds of mics including a couple of D-6's. I'd rank them in the lowest 5% of the inventory for usability. They live in the barn with the rest of the horses, but they really are a one-triCK pony.
Yup. Now, its a great pony if you want to do that trick. IME, its good for live "modern rock" bands. Just like my old Aphex type C is good for getting a certain "click" in the kick sound on metal or punk shows. Put a rockabilly band up there and someone is usually asking pretty quickly if I can make the kick sound "more authentic and less metal"
Old 9th March 2017
  #134
Lives for gear
 

The thing is, that one-trick boom click is fast becoming the sound for all kick drums and musical styles...convenience, (and laziness) determine what is supposedly "good" and authentic.
Old 9th March 2017
  #135
Deleted User
Guest
Im keeping both mics.

I like the sound of both mics.

Thanks everyone!
Old 9th March 2017
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Im keeping both mics.

I like the sound of both mics.

Thanks everyone!
Sounds like a good plan
Old 29th April 2017
  #137
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Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Again: this particular discussion started because I said I don't care what the audience thinks, as long as the band is happy, I'm happy. This is NOT about my relationship with the band which is my only concern when I'm mixing.
It is definitely not my point that I take advice from the audience, rather that the bands discussions will be influenced by feedback from trusted friends, colleagues, etc. These people may or may not speak to you directly, but musicians tend to draw comment from many camps an d often, not always, but often their opinions will be formed from all of this feedback as well as their own personal experience. I most definitely do not change my approach because a punter makes comment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Ultimately, I hope the audience like the show, but that is not my concern, and it shouldn't be the concern of any sound mixer. It's not part of our job description and any mixer who get caught up with that is being presumptuous and is trying to make the job about himself or herself. That's my opinion of course.
Having said the above, I will simply agree to disagree with you here. It is certainly not about the Engineer to care about the sustainability of the act. At least not beyond future employment.
Old 30th April 2017
  #138
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisle 6 View Post
Having said the above, I will simply agree to disagree with you here. It is certainly not about the Engineer to care about the sustainability of the act. At least not beyond future employment.
We seem to agree on this.
Old 30th April 2017
  #139
Who said anything about the sustainability.
The sound engineer is there to see that what happens onstage translates to what the audience hear.
We are ALL there to care what the audience thinks to a certain degree.
They bought the tickets, or the show wouldn't happen.
If the band love the sound onstage, but the sound engineer says the stage sound is so loud it sounds crap in the venue, what are you going to do? Say screw the audience?
Any ensemble I've ever played with have tried to moderate the stage experience to make the PA sound better.
Old 30th April 2017
  #140
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Any ensemble I've ever played with have tried to moderate the stage experience to make the PA sound better.
You would agree though that ultimately this is the band's call...and ultimately, the sound person only need to care what the band thinks about his/her work.

If the sound person respects the band's needs (and wants) chances he/she will have nothing to worry about, yes, band's typically hire mixers they trust...they trust sound person to help them manage the technicals aspects of the show, interpret their needs and to help them translate what they do to their audience in a way that is consistent with their needs.

The fact is that the sound mixer cannot do things that are counter to the bands wishes...not for long anyway.

Fans buy the tickets and that makes the concert possible, they buy tickets because they like the band.
Old 30th April 2017
  #141
Lives for gear
The D112 is in my opinion the most flexible kick drum mic in it's price range.
If you know what you're doing, you can make it sound at least decent in pretty much any situation.
Old 1st May 2017
  #142
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Aisle 6's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Who said anything about the sustainability.
Well I deal in sustainability as I tend to work with an artist for many many years. So I build a relationship and provide a service that they desire and as long as I continue to be of assistance to their development then I have a job. Hence job sustainability.
Old 2nd May 2017
  #143
Gear Nut
 

Would actually suggest the Telefunken M-82. Has 2 switches so your D6/B52/D112/ATM25 sounds are all achievable
Old 29th May 2017
  #144
Here for the gear
 

I'd definitely go with the 52A out of the two options for plug & play-ability.

I put together a little blog post on this topic actually and I know you said you wanted to stick to those two, but I'd definitely check out the Sennheiser e902.
Old 29th May 2017
  #145
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Im keeping both mics.

I like the sound of both mics.

Thanks everyone!
Attn: shreedan
Old 29th May 2017
  #146
Lives for gear
 
Pro Sound Guy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
Yea, but they also have that goofy mic clip going on making it a PITA to get into a drum hole if you want to close mike the drum head. They also rumble more that the other mics mentioned here IME.

Yes, the D6 gives a consistent sound on all kicks. If you simply want the kick to sound good all the time, it is a good mic to use. If you actually get the sound the kick is making, you frequently find that all you are amplifying is crap and will struggle to get anything good at all to come through the PA with most drummers in typical bar bands.

If you are working with great talent, then I agree. Other mic choices will bring out the nuances of the artists kit much better than a D6.

Wouldn't it be great if every drummer in every bar band was a great artist
I have used many different kick mics and the D6 I cant stand.
If I want a Metallica kick sound that is the mic I can think of.

My absolute favorite is the Audio Technica ATM25 for kick. Or just whatever
drum mic.
Like the 421 it is an all around killer drum mic.

Press Release - Audio-Technica Reintroduces its Classic ATM25 Hypercardioid Dynamic Instrument Microphone with Limited Edition A-T 50th Anniversary Model || Audio-Technica US
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