The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Midas MR18!? Behringer XR18?? Mixers (Digital)
Old 23rd January 2017
  #61
Lives for gear
I own the XR and the UI. IMO, the largest area for improvement in the XR series is further enhancement of the apps, particularly the android app in comparison to the brilliant GUI experience on the ui using android. I would pay for that kind of software for the XR.
Old 25th January 2017
  #62
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
"trimode" router != "better" router
Right. But it still doesn't have MiMo (you can tell by the single antenna), which is half of what helps a better external router sort out your tablet in a busy WiFi environment.

We often talk about 5Ghz, but that's because 1) people don't understand the importance of MiMo and 2) MiMo usually comes with 5Ghz on even mediocre external routers.


You'll still want an external router with this Midas unit.

-Stephen
Old 25th January 2017
  #63
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebulb View Post
I think the PC app and the ability to hardwire the XAir and X32 to your laptop puts the Behringer over the A&H. everything else with A&H looks to be designed better but the lack of backup connection to me is more than a niggle.. If they made a PC app I think the QuSb would offer the best features/price for stage box mixer on the market currently.

the Qu app is cool, feels way better than X Air apps which I agree are a mess. The situation with the X Air apps and Behringers apathy around their development is turning me off buying XR18 altogether. all things considered X32 rack is still the best of the bunch IMO but that's got some drawbacks also.. been a number of years now since these mixers started coming onto the market and I still cant say one company has gotten it all right for what I need.
Agreed. The iOS app hasn't been updated in a year and a half, and they didn't write the Android app in the first place. The XRs have some cool features, but many of them are unavailable on iOS, and clunky on Android.

If you need to use a tablet, that would be a HUGE turn-off for me. But if you can get by with your MacBook or something...

-Stephen
Old 25th January 2017
  #64
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsteve9 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
"trimode" router != "better" router
Right.
Er, no.
In Music Group's speak, "Tri mode" is referring to the three networking modes with which you can use the XR/MR18. Both models claim this.
Old 25th January 2017
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecSp View Post
Er, no.
In Music Group's speak, "Tri mode" is referring to the three networking modes with which you can use the XR/MR18. Both models claim this.
!= means "Not the same". So... Yes, Tri-mode != "Better"
Old 25th January 2017
  #66
Lives for gear
I've never seen any comment from Behringer about this, but there's a post from the Soundcraft rep in the ui thread that seemed to me to indicate that there is a regulatory limitation on the power of built in routers in audio devices.

Absent a misunderstanding on my part (entirely possible), I assume that the internal routers can only go so far...and therefore, external routers will continue to be needed for the best signal strength in live applications because human bodies absorb wi fi signal.

Computer routers generally vary in user satisfaction. I wouldn't expect a $200 router to be built into a $249 XR12.
Old 26th January 2017
  #67
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
I've never seen any comment from Behringer about this, but there's a post from the Soundcraft rep in the ui thread that seemed to me to indicate that there is a regulatory limitation on the power of built in routers in audio devices.
My understanding is that there are different power limits in different countries. Particularly, I believe that the US may allow higher power devices than the UK. For a "simple" device like the XR series, I'd expect Behringer to have complied with the lowest common denominator, which appears to be the case.

The XR specs quote the output as 19dBm (802.11b) /18dBm (802.11g) , which equates to approx 80 mW.

I found this table of Maximum wifi transmission power per country which, if reliable, appears to indicate that the UK max power on channels 1-11 is 100mW in the UK, but 1,000mW in the US. If all this holds together, then the XR's built-in wifi is way below the maximum permitted power in the US, so I'd definitely expect a locally sourced external router to have more power available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
!= means "Not the same". So... Yes, Tri-mode != "Better"
Guilty as charged of not reading carefully enough - sorry!
Old 26th January 2017
  #68
Lives for gear
^that is very useful information to consider if those are the power limits that apply to the XR and the UI versus an external router. 80 or maybe 100mw v 1000mw would seem to be an eye opening difference in power. If we could then numerically determine how much signal is absorbed by the human body, then perhaps we'd get a better indication of how much of that 80 mw or 100mw signal is effectively available for use when an audience is present.
Old 1st February 2017
  #69
Lives for gear
MR18 now showing as available for preorder from Sweetwater.
Old 1st February 2017
  #70
Lives for gear
Hopefully this is good news for current X-air mixer owners as far as app updates go. I'm going to be torqued off if the MR18 gets a fully functioning iPad app and the Behringer version isn't compatible or it's own app updated.
Old 1st February 2017
  #71
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by abzurd View Post
Hopefully this is good news for current X-air mixer owners as far as app updates go. I'm going to be torqued off if the MR18 gets a fully functioning iPad app and the Behringer version isn't compatible or it's own app updated.
Pretty confident the apps will work across both lines, just as they do for X/M 32. It would be a rather daft engineering decision to make the OS different across the two.

And, BTW, why not try an Android device - they work fantastically!
Old 1st February 2017
  #72
Old 2nd February 2017
  #73
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
screen shot of the app
I'd take that with a pretty big pinch of salt!

Look closer at the iPad picture and you'll see they've (badly) superimposed a screen picture onto a picture of an iPod - notice the partial home button at the other end of the screen. Think you'll need to wait for the app to arrive and then see what it's got.

Old 2nd February 2017
  #74
Gear Maniac
 

Just noticed new firmware & PC app available this week.

Firmware 1.15
NEW FEATURES
• Support for Midas M-AIR mixers
• USB player (of MR12, XR12 and XR16) can now be routed to input channels 1-16
• AUX 17/18 Input (of MR18, XR18 and X18) can now be routed to input channels 1-16
• New Lock function using X-TOUCH (DISPLAY + GLOBAL VIEW + FLIP to lock, FLIP + GLOBAL VIEW
+ DISPLAY to unlock)
ENHANCEMENTS
• Automix handling of low-level signals improved
• Crash with unidentified MIDI controllers fixed
• X-Touch DCA display fix (FX edit mode)
• USB recorder fix for sporadic XR12/16 distorted recording (buffer sync problem)
• Automix gain reduction meter scaling corrected
X-AIR EDIT 1.5
X AIR EDIT 1.5 features new improved EQ graphic routines.
We were also able to improve the performance and CPU load on Apple Mac considerably.
X AIR EDIT 1.5 enables sending Aux In 17/18 (or USB Playback on XR12/XR16) signals to any of the input channels 1-16, a new routing feature of firmware 1.15.
Keyboard shortcuts have been improved as well as the Wifi password indication. We also fixed a number of small glitches, please see details in the release notes.
Old 2nd February 2017
  #75
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecSp View Post
Pretty confident the apps will work across both lines, just as they do for X/M 32. It would be a rather daft engineering decision to make the OS different across the two.

And, BTW, why not try an Android device - they work fantastically!
That's kind of like buying a new car with a flat tire and being told to use the temporary spare

I have used the android app and don't really care for it. Aesthetics aside, it only shows half the channels at a time and I find it more "clunky" to navigate. I also only have a larger Android tablet and use an ipad mini to mix. Being the lead singer it needs be as unobtrusive as possible. I also have a teleprompter app on the ipad for the 3-4 songs a night I don't have committed to memory yet.

Bottom line.... I shouldn't have to sacrifice. This is a TABLET MIXER! The software should not be an afterthought with bugs and advertised features not addressed, with the last release being September 7, 2015. Nowhere on their site does Behringer explain that the iPad software is crippled and that they may or may not get around to fixing it.

IMO, it's a middle finger from Behringer to leave the iOS app in the state it's in, instead putting resources towards the roll-out of similar product instead.

Last edited by abzurd; 2nd February 2017 at 04:29 PM..
Old 2nd February 2017
  #76
Quote:
Originally Posted by abzurd View Post
That's kind of like buying a new car with a flat tire and being told to use the temporary spare

I have used the android app and don't really care for it. Aesthetics aside, it only shows half the channels at a time and I find it more "clunky" to navigate. I also only have a larger Android tablet and use an ipad mini to mix. Being the lead singer it needs be as unobtrusive as possible. I also have a teleprompter app on the ipad for the 3-4 songs a night I don't have committed to memory yet.

Bottom line.... I shouldn't have to sacrifice. This is a TABLET MIXER! The software should not be an afterthought with bugs and advertised features not addressed for over a year. Nowhere on their site does Behringer explain that the iPad software is crippled and that they may or may not get around to fixing it.

IMO, it's a middle finger from Behringer to leave the iOS app in the state it's in, instead putting resources towards the roll-out of similar product instead.
Actually, it's a COMPUTER mixer. Not, specifically, an iPad mixer.
Old 2nd February 2017
  #77
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Actually, it's a COMPUTER mixer. Not, specifically, an iPad mixer.
By Behringer's own marketing, it's primarily a tablet mixer (see below). The top of the XR18 page on the Behringer site is a pic of the mixer AND iOS app (because that app looks a lot better). I'm just calling it like I see it. With the last post here I see there's new software/firmware so hopefully the shortcomings have been addressed. We'll know soon enough.

BTW, no new iPad app at the Apple App store yet.

18-Channel, 12-Bus Digital Mixer for iPad/Android Tablets with 16 Programmable MIDAS Preamps, Integrated Wifi Module and Multi-Channel USB Audio Interface
Old 2nd February 2017
  #78
Lives for gear
One has to wonder what B is thinking. The MR18 has Midas features, but are they worth the increase in price over the XR18? Will the new software appeal enough to buyers at the $900 price point? Can B afford not to improve the Ios app if it wants to sell MR18s---my thought here being that Ios users are willing to pay for premium performance in buying an Ipad in the first place and expect premium performance in any Ios app.

Behringer's having one software for PC, another for Android, another for Ios, would seem to put Behringer at a disadvantage versus the Soundcraft Ui approach of a single GUI that works the same across OS systems.

And soon buyers will be looking at whether to buy the MR18 or the Soundcraft ui24r since they are in the same price ballpark. And knowledgeable buyers will be looking at both the performance of the hardware and the software and connectivity reliability.

IMO Behringer can't afford to not be competitive on the software side of things relative to the Soundcraft Ui if it wants to sell lots of MR18s.
Old 2nd February 2017
  #79
Different thread was bemoaning how a chrome update "broke" the UI interface... so it's not a panacea.
Old 3rd February 2017
  #80
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsteve9 View Post
Right. But it still doesn't have MiMo (you can tell by the single antenna), which is half of what helps a better external router sort out your tablet in a busy WiFi environment.

We often talk about 5Ghz, but that's because 1) people don't understand the importance of MiMo and 2) MiMo usually comes with 5Ghz on even mediocre external routers.


You'll still want an external router with this Midas unit.

-Stephen
MIMO is only important for bandwidth intensive applications.

The importance of 5Ghz in this application (and many others) isn't bandwidth, but rather the presences of many times the number of interference free channel numbers to choose from. The fatal flaw of the 2.4Ghz wireless was that only 3 non-overlapping channels existed. 5Ghz has many more than that (the exact number varies from country to country).
Old 3rd February 2017
  #81
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by abzurd View Post
That's kind of like buying a new car with a flat tire and being told to use the temporary spare

I have used the android app and don't really care for it. Aesthetics aside, it only shows half the channels at a time and I find it more "clunky" to navigate. I also only have a larger Android tablet and use an ipad mini to mix. Being the lead singer it needs be as unobtrusive as possible. I also have a teleprompter app on the ipad for the 3-4 songs a night I don't have committed to memory yet.

Bottom line.... I shouldn't have to sacrifice. This is a TABLET MIXER! The software should not be an afterthought with bugs and advertised features not addressed, with the last release being September 7, 2015. Nowhere on their site does Behringer explain that the iPad software is crippled and that they may or may not get around to fixing it.

IMO, it's a middle finger from Behringer to leave the iOS app in the state it's in, instead putting resources towards the roll-out of similar product instead.
Granted. Behringer's iOS app updates have been behind the Android apps in both the X-Air and X32 hardware. I haven't used the Android app for X-Air (only the iPad and PC apps), but on the X32, you can not only create custom layers, you can adjust how many faders you want to see on the screen at the same time. Is this not the case for the X-Air android app?

I will give it to you. The Android app is not as pretty, but it has considerably more features.

With respect to the comparison to the Ui application, I would say that the work-flow in the Ui app is VERY well thought out.

On the flip side, the Ui hardware is way more limited in functionality than the X-Air, so some of the complexity of the Behringer applications are brought on because of the vast number of features included. Perhaps Behringer would have been well served by creating a "simple" view that would have limited functionality, but be very easy to navigate.

The Ui GUI certainly has hit a good mix of functions vs usability.
Old 3rd February 2017
  #82
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Different thread was bemoaning how a chrome update "broke" the UI interface... so it's not a panacea.
I don't have the technical background to know whether a GUI based on html platform is more prone to connection problems than apps custom tailored to specific operating systems. If so, maybe Behringer opted for apps custom tailored to specific operating systems? Is that why there are so many OS apps for the XR series?
Old 3rd February 2017
  #83
Lives for gear
 
dickiefunk's Avatar
I just noticed that the Soundcraft is a much heavier mixer than the Behringer XR18/Midas MR18. The XR18 weighs 3.2 kg and the Soundcraft Ui24 weighs 13kg. Whilst the Soundcraft is still not that heavy that is double what my A&H QU-PAC weighs.
Old 3rd February 2017
  #84
Lives for gear
That's an interesting observation. Wonder why the SC is so much heavier? Would be nice to have someone open one up and tell us what's really inside.

Briefly looked at the new PC edit version 1.15 last night. It appears to be a further refinement of the previous software, but generally speaking retains the look and feel of the previous version. Also uploaded firmware 1.15 to an XR16 quickly and painlessly.
Old 4th February 2017
  #85
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
I don't have the technical background to know whether a GUI based on html platform is more prone to connection problems than apps custom tailored to specific operating systems. If so, maybe Behringer opted for apps custom tailored to specific operating systems? Is that why there are so many OS apps for the XR series?
The apps behringer use are compiled using "native compilers".... meaning that they are using development environments that are created for that platform exclusively.

HTML5 is exactly what it sounds like .... an upgrade to HTLM which the web page you are looking at is described in (Hyper Text Markup Language). HTML5 supports embedded Javascript. Javascript is code written into the markup language so to speak. When you open the web page, the code is included.....literally.

So within the web page, the browser reads the text associated with the Javascript, and interprets what the code text means "if (x>0) then "do something". This is referred to as an "interpreter" since it interprets the code by reading the text then doing something.

There are two issues associated with browser based interpreters. The first is that it is many times slower than code compiled to run natively on a computing platform. The second is that each browser version on each operating system can interpret the code differently making it so it may or may not work on every combination.

The advantage of browser based code is that it is delivered just by opening a web browser. The second is that it will run on anything that has a web browser so you only have to write it once.

Most apps that require high performance, or native access to hardware, or require lower resources (memory or processor performance) are written using a native environment and language.
Old 6th February 2017
  #86
Lives for gear
I don't know what's inside these things, but I'm guessing there is some kind of processor in there to process the html5 code?

Hypothetically, if users were experiencing connection freezes, would you start looking at how the code is written or would you start looking at the processor power of the hardware? Let's also assume hypothetically that the connection seems to be fine on Android, but if you add a windows 7 pc, the connection freezes.

From a purely technical standpoint, what would you look at to diagnose this kind of situation?
Old 6th February 2017
  #87
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
I don't know what's inside these things, but I'm guessing there is some kind of processor in there to process the html5 code?

Hypothetically, if users were experiencing connection freezes, would you start looking at how the code is written or would you start looking at the processor power of the hardware? Let's also assume hypothetically that the connection seems to be fine on Android, but if you add a windows 7 pc, the connection freezes.

From a purely technical standpoint, what would you look at to diagnose this kind of situation?
I'd look at your Windows 7 PC , firewall/security software, and the browser.

Well the FIRST thing I'd do is use a WIRED ethernet connection to see if the problem changed between wired and wireless.
Old 6th February 2017
  #88
Here's an example - the Grace M108 is a high end preamp, and offers custom control software as well as a web interface... however:
"The m108 has a built-in web browser controller allowing remote control from most web enabled Mac, Windows, iOS and Android devices. This control has been optimized for Chrome, but will operate on most modern web browsers (excluding Internet Explorer)..."

You can see that a browser is not a browser is not a browser.
Old 6th February 2017
  #89
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
I don't know what's inside these things, but I'm guessing there is some kind of processor in there to process the html5 code?

Hypothetically, if users were experiencing connection freezes, would you start looking at how the code is written or would you start looking at the processor power of the hardware? Let's also assume hypothetically that the connection seems to be fine on Android, but if you add a windows 7 pc, the connection freezes.

From a purely technical standpoint, what would you look at to diagnose this kind of situation?
Connections are handled at a pretty low level. The driver in the OS is one place to look, and the firmware within the radio itself. The high level code that calls for a connection (in this case the Javascript) has little to do with the stability of the connection. The hardware itself could also be the problem (integrated wifi antenna orientation/layout, noise in the hardware, etc). If the latter is the case, there is very little that can be done that will do anything but marginally improve the situation.

You could potentially do some background checking of signal strength and test the connection in a background loop, then disconnect and re-connect to correct the problem, but as we all well know, wireless connections take time to make. They take more time when the wifi conditions are poor to begin with.
Old 7th February 2017
  #90
Lives for gear
 
dickiefunk's Avatar
Just noticed the M-Air app for the Midas MR12 and MR18 is now available to download from the App Store.

https://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/m-air/id1171110774?mt=8
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump