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Midas MR18!? Behringer XR18?? Mixers (Digital)
Old 22nd December 2016
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixieotronic View Post
The inbuilt routes are worthless and I agree that it would be nice to have a PC app, but that alone doesn't put the XR over the QU-Sb, it's just a niggle that might be addressed by A&H. By the way, the Qu app is nothing like the piece of crap that Behringer servers to its customers, it's stable, up to date, responsive and controls all the mixer's functions. It's just a different level of support and security and you get what you pay for.
I can't agree that the Behringer apps are "crap", and I suspect that if you used them, you would likely agree.

I do agree that Behringer needs to spend more time on the apps side of things.

The Qu app (what little I have done with it) seems "OK". There is nothing inherently better about it than the Behringer apps that I can see.

One feature that the X32 apps have that NEITHER the X-Air or Qu-pad apps have is the full time mini full meter bridge at the top of the screen. I have become so used to this feature that I really can't imagine living without it.

The absence of an off-line editor for the Qu-Pad would be a real turn-off for me personally. Others may not think of it as much of a big deal at all.
Old 22nd December 2016
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixieotronic View Post
The inbuilt routes are worthless and I agree that it would be nice to have a PC app, but that alone doesn't put the XR over the QU-Sb, it's just a niggle that might be addressed by A&H. By the way, the Qu app is nothing like the piece of crap that Behringer servers to its customers, it's stable, up to date, responsive and controls all the mixer's functions. It's just a different level of support and security and you get what you pay for.
Generally speaking I like A&H waaaaay more than Behringer, but what you're saying simply isn't true. Yes, the Qu app is fine NOW, but it too was released to the public incomplete. A&H took a long time to get to where it is now. So, to that end, A&H provided the same level of support. Like the Behringer app, it also would occasionally quit unexpectedly.

Edit: I just found this - Here's the Qu-Pad webpage. Notice the first thing they say under "feature summary" is - Version 1.9 now provides full control including mixing and setup functions. That's great, but the mixer was released in May of 2013. Version 1.9 came out in May of 2016, a full 3 years later.

For the love of God, please stop making me defend Behringer
Old 22nd December 2016
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixieotronic View Post
The inbuilt routes are worthless and I agree that it would be nice to have a PC app, but that alone doesn't put the XR over the QU-Sb, it's just a niggle that might be addressed by A&H. By the way, the Qu app is nothing like the piece of crap that Behringer servers to its customers, it's stable, up to date, responsive and controls all the mixer's functions. It's just a different level of support and security and you get what you pay for.
Funny we've mixed the x air and x32 series here. The apps for the x32 are quite good.
Old 23rd December 2016
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixieotronic View Post
The inbuilt routes are worthless and I agree that it would be nice to have a PC app, but that alone doesn't put the XR over the QU-Sb, it's just a niggle that might be addressed by A&H. By the way, the Qu app is nothing like the piece of crap that Behringer servers to its customers, it's stable, up to date, responsive and controls all the mixer's functions. It's just a different level of support and security and you get what you pay for.
I think the PC app and the ability to hardwire the XAir and X32 to your laptop puts the Behringer over the A&H. everything else with A&H looks to be designed better but the lack of backup connection to me is more than a niggle.. If they made a PC app I think the QuSb would offer the best features/price for stage box mixer on the market currently.

the Qu app is cool, feels way better than X Air apps which I agree are a mess. The situation with the X Air apps and Behringers apathy around their development is turning me off buying XR18 altogether. all things considered X32 rack is still the best of the bunch IMO but that's got some drawbacks also.. been a number of years now since these mixers started coming onto the market and I still cant say one company has gotten it all right for what I need.
Old 23rd December 2016
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abzurd View Post
Generally speaking I like A&H waaaaay more than Behringer, but what you're saying simply isn't true. Yes, the Qu app is fine NOW, but it too was released to the public incomplete. A&H took a long time to get to where it is now. So, to that end, A&H provided the same level of support. Like the Behringer app, it also would occasionally quit unexpectedly.

Edit: I just found this - Here's the Qu-Pad webpage. Notice the first thing they say under "feature summary" is - Version 1.9 now provides full control including mixing and setup functions. That's great, but the mixer was released in May of 2013. Version 1.9 came out in May of 2016, a full 3 years later.

For the love of God, please stop making me defend Behringer
Yea, I have been getting a kick out of reading your posts Never thought I'd see the day!

Abzurd purchasing a Behringer mixer .... and defending it. It has indeed been a crazy year here in the US!
Old 23rd December 2016
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebulb View Post
I think the PC app and the ability to hardwire the XAir and X32 to your laptop puts the Behringer over the A&H. everything else with A&H looks to be designed better but the lack of backup connection to me is more than a niggle.. If they made a PC app I think the QuSb would offer the best features/price for stage box mixer on the market currently.

the Qu app is cool, feels way better than X Air apps which I agree are a mess. The situation with the X Air apps and Behringers apathy around their development is turning me off buying XR18 altogether. all things considered X32 rack is still the best of the bunch IMO but that's got some drawbacks also.. been a number of years now since these mixers started coming onto the market and I still cant say one company has gotten it all right for what I need.
I agree .... and not just because I own one ... Ok, that might be part of it

With the X18 able to be had at silly low prices ..... you can buy 2 of them for the price of one X32 Rack (which run around $1000 to $1200). The features are more complete on the apps for the X32, but then again, they have been around quite a bit longer. The X32 is significantly more powerful in terms of channel count, and processing slots (more than double); however, for guys like Abzurd who have a normal band and frequently mix from stage, the XR mixers are more than enough mixer to get the job done.... and because it is less flexible, the routine and usage of the X-Air mixers are easier to understand than the X32's as well (this is also true of the Qu mixers for the same reason IMO).

In addition, I found that I liked the processing on the Behringer mixers more than that on the Qu mixers .... but I haven't owned both. Abzurd what are your feelings about the sound quality having owned both for more than enough time to tell the difference?
Old 23rd December 2016
  #37
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i just saw a response from A&H saying they have no plans to develop a PC application for QuSb.. that is a shame and i think might cost them some sales..

I hope NAMM17 brings some cool announcements, if I'm in the market to buy a digital mixer early next year I want to feel more confident than I currently do about the options.
Old 23rd December 2016
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixieotronic View Post
The inbuilt routes are worthless...
Sorry, but this isn't completely true. It depends entirely on the gig and what sort of environment you are in. As I've said elsewhere, I've now done 30-40 gigs mixing on-stage for my band at smallish venues (c100-300), and I've only experienced one connection dropout, and that was instantly rectified by clicking the 're-connect' button that popped up.

I always scan the room with the Airport utility app on my phone just before the gig and set my mixer to an unused , or low-usage channel, and I 'm sure this helps.

Maybe I wouldn't need to bother with that if I had an external router, but since it only takes a few seconds, I can live with it for the time being.
Old 23rd December 2016
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
Yea, I have been getting a kick out of reading your posts Never thought I'd see the day!

Abzurd purchasing a Behringer mixer .... and defending it. It has indeed been a crazy year here in the US!

I rationalized the purchase for 2 reasons. First, the XR series is actually what I consider a unique product and not just a copycat. The main reason though is that Behringer bought my beloved TC-Helicon. I've owned 7 of their products (4 currently). They also now own 10 other brands and arguably all are top shelf names. Time will tell what influence Behringer will be, but the Behringer line is blurred with all the recent acquisitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
I agree .... and not just because I own one ... Ok, that might be part of it

... Abzurd what are your feelings about the sound quality having owned both for more than enough time to tell the difference?
At a base level, I can't tell the difference. They are both clean and do the job. The increased functionality and plugins make the Behringer "sound better" because I can do more to the sound. There are more types of EQs on the channel strips, more types of compressors, including a multi-band which is pretty slick for taming instruments like guitar and keys, which use multiple patches with varying EQs.
Old 23rd December 2016
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abzurd View Post
I rationalized the purchase for 2 reasons. First, the XR series is actually what I consider a unique product and not just a copycat. The main reason though is that Behringer bought my beloved TC-Helicon. I've owned 7 of their products (4 currently). They also now own 10 other brands and arguably all are top shelf names. Time will tell what influence Behringer will be, but the Behringer line is blurred with all the recent acquisitions.
I own several TC products (both TC Electronics and TC Helicon). Great stuff.

Both the X-Air line and the X32/M32 line are pretty original. Seems kinda weird seeing other companies following Behringer's lead in technology.

Quote:
At a base level, I can't tell the difference. They are both clean and do the job. The increased functionality and plugins make the Behringer "sound better" because I can do more to the sound. There are more types of EQs on the channel strips, more types of compressors, including a multi-band which is pretty slick for taming instruments like guitar and keys, which use multiple patches with varying EQs.
Good feedback. Thanks.

Most of the new mixers seem to be pretty capable. I still feel that the old Behringer Xenix / Euromix, Mackie VLZ's, and Yamaha MG's don't cut the mustard with respect to sound quality .... but these are all a cut below the market we are talking about here.

The X-Air mixers just offer so much for so little, they are nearly impossible not to recommend (my bass player has one we use as a backup to the X32 Rack). It is really silly good. I paid $1000.00 for my MixWiz .... 15 years ago! Nearly half the money today gets you way more mixer.... and mixing on-stage with a tablet is WAY more convenient that anything I ever accomplished with the MixWiz.
Old 23rd December 2016
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post

The X-Air mixers just offer so much for so little, they are nearly impossible not to recommend (my bass player has one we use as a backup to the X32 Rack). It is really silly good. I paid $1000.00 for my MixWiz .... 15 years ago! Nearly half the money today gets you way more mixer.... and mixing on-stage with a tablet is WAY more convenient that anything I ever accomplished with the MixWiz.
As a backup is how it started. I picked up a new X18 for $400 just to play with in hopes it would be a viable back up as my previous backup was just a simply 12 channel analog board with no processing. So the X18 would give us the same practical functionality as the Qu-16 and could just live in the "spares" bin.

I used it for a few gigs to get it set up and be familiar. Realizing it had been nice not bringing in a 200lb 14U rack (it also has our cables and wireless gear in it but I had backup wireless stuff), I used it for a few more. It was also nice that I could easily take the mixer into the house remix the show and make finished recordings. That's really what sold it.

What I didn't like about the X18 is that it's not rack mountable and has TRS auxes. I had this ugly plastic bin contraption that held everything, but it really wasn't suitable long term and I ended up buying an XR18. Now I have redundant mixers and one lives in the trailer while the other one can be brought in for mix downs and the odd show where I need 2 sound systems.

I ended up putting it in a 4U case. Using both sides of the case I got everything I needed in it. PICS HERE
Old 23rd December 2016
  #42
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Looking at your photos reminded me that the XR being not quite half a rack deep and so lightweight lends itself to mounting other gear on the opposite side of the rack as you've done.

I think rack design needs to better evolve to rack and carry routers/laptops/tablets that are necessary for mixing with XR type mixers.

It would even be handy if there were standard cell phone charging ports on our rack mounted power strips.

For those of us racking power amps with the XR, it's helpful to add some standoffs with holes to pass cords back through to the amp.
Attached Thumbnails
Midas MR18!? Behringer XR18??-xr16-mod.jpg  
Old 23rd December 2016
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abzurd View Post
As a backup is how it started. I picked up a new X18 for $400 just to play with in hopes it would be a viable back up as my previous backup was just a simply 12 channel analog board with no processing. So the X18 would give us the same practical functionality as the Qu-16 and could just live in the "spares" bin.

I used it for a few gigs to get it set up and be familiar. Realizing it had been nice not bringing in a 200lb 14U rack (it also has our cables and wireless gear in it but I had backup wireless stuff), I used it for a few more. It was also nice that I could easily take the mixer into the house remix the show and make finished recordings. That's really what sold it.

What I didn't like about the X18 is that it's not rack mountable and has TRS auxes. I had this ugly plastic bin contraption that held everything, but it really wasn't suitable long term and I ended up buying an XR18. Now I have redundant mixers and one lives in the trailer while the other one can be brought in for mix downs and the odd show where I need 2 sound systems.

I ended up putting it in a 4U case. Using both sides of the case I got everything I needed in it. PICS HERE
Nice gig rig! Lighting controller and all.

I ended up getting one of these: SKB Roto Rolling Rack - 6 Rack Spaces w/Wheels | Sweetwater.com

It holds everything except the speakers, microphones, mic stands, and cords.... and it rolls with a handle

I don't miss my large, heavy, mixer/instrument rack at all. That thing weighed around 140lbs.
Old 2nd January 2017
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
I'm wondering if perhaps eventually they might just retire the Behringer line of.....
I think you're onto a larger scheme there. Herr Uli paid a lot of money for those "other" companies, their techs and their R&D; the origin company is just one of a gaggle under TMG umbrella so the question for me is how long before the one with the rider-toxic name fades into "Behringer is now Agilent" or whatever functional equivalent the logo consultants recommend.

We'll know as soon as someone does a YT video cracking open the two XR18s, whether they changed a few op amps or no. I think no, "Midas-designed preamps" says enough but maybe they made a new surface-mount board. The software does look a little different & "blingie".
Rgds
WalterT
Old 2nd January 2017
  #45
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the screenshot of the app on that MR18 pdf is the same layout as the app for XR18 just with different graphics.. its probably the exact same software just with a different skin/theme..
Old 2nd January 2017
  #46
S21
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S21's Avatar
 

Uli is following the only workable pathway seeking to being the best sound equipment company, given that it is already an established mature industry.

It's a pathway companies like Toyota have taken many decades ago. If you start with premium products the established and well funded companies will crush you. There is a need to start so low and so cheap that the premium companies won't seek to compete. Market share is eroded from below, taking the lower margin lower dollar sales away from the premium players who internally justify the loss of market share by saying "we didn't want to be in that market anyway".

Rinse and repeat. The challenger builds capital and capability and creeps their products upwards slowly, incrementally capturing the market.
Old 2nd January 2017
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by audibell View Post
I think you're onto a larger scheme there. Herr Uli paid a lot of money for those "other" companies, their techs and their R&D; the origin company is just one of a gaggle under TMG umbrella so the question for me is how long before the one with the rider-toxic name fades into "Behringer is now Agilent" or whatever functional equivalent the logo consultants recommend.

We'll know as soon as someone does a YT video cracking open the two XR18s, whether they changed a few op amps or no. I think no, "Midas-designed preamps" says enough but maybe they made a new surface-mount board. The software does look a little different & "blingie".
Rgds
WalterT
There are internal pictures floating around. Internals are different.
Old 2nd January 2017
  #48
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dickiefunk's Avatar
There is some more info here if you translate the page :-

Wireless Mixer: Midas MR18 und MR12 › Production Partner

Apparently the differences between the Midas M12/M18 and the Behringer counterparts are like the differences between the Midas M32 and the Behringer X32. From what I've read on the MusicGroup forums the M12/M18 mixers have upgraded Midas Pro preamps, better digital converters and higher output?
Old 2nd January 2017
  #49
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mintaka007's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
There is some more info here if you translate the page :-

Wireless Mixer: Midas MR18 und MR12 › Production Partner

Apparently the differences between the Midas M12/M18 and the Behringer counterparts are like the differences between the Midas M32 and the Behringer X32. From what I've read on the MusicGroup forums the M12/M18 mixers have upgraded Midas Pro preamps, better digital converters and higher output?
Where did you see converter difference between m32/x32. All literature I have seen says the only 2 differences are the preamps, chassis design and faders. All other internals and software are the same. In the case of the xr18 and mr18, it would just be preamps and maybe "tri mode router".
Old 2nd January 2017
  #50
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dickiefunk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mintaka007 View Post
Where did you see converter difference between m32/x32. All literature I have seen says the only 2 differences are the preamps, chassis design and faders. All other internals and software are the same. In the case of the xr18 and mr18, it would just be preamps and maybe "tri mode router".
I read this on the MusicGroup forum. The Behringer X-Air mixers already have Tri-Mode routers.
Old 2nd January 2017
  #51
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I used chrome to translate the review linked a few posts above. This is the interesting bit.


"The Midas MR12 resp. MR18 differ among themselves in particular in the number of inputs / outputs. The input and output stages have been significantly revised compared to the Behringer variants. The maximum output level has also been raised in this context. As one could see from R & D in Willich, which is still working with the R & D in the UK to develop the product, it was a challenge to keep this additional hardware effort purely mechanical in the supercompact housing Cosmetics against the Behringer X-AIR."
Old 2nd January 2017
  #52
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dickiefunk's Avatar
With the upgraded mic preamps and outputs I'm very keen to try out the Midas MR12 mixers. As I mentioned, I had the Behringer X-Air 12 here and did a comparison with my A&H QU-PAC and found the preamps on the Behringer to be noticeably noisier! If the new Midas preamps are as quiet as the QU-PAC, I will be picking up one of the MR12's or even the MR18 as a replacement for my A&H ZED 10fx.
Old 22nd January 2017
  #53
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dickiefunk's Avatar
Has there been any news on these mixers at NAMM? I really want to try one of the MR12's and am wondering when these will be available to buy?
Old 22nd January 2017
  #54
Latest I heard was April for availability, and the series gets new apps at that time too.
Old 22nd January 2017
  #55
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dickiefunk's Avatar
Great! Look forward to trying the MR12 out!!
Old 23rd January 2017
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Latest I heard was April for availability, and the series gets new apps at that time too.
Any word whether the existing XR line will also get new apps? Or are they limited to the new Midas product?
Old 23rd January 2017
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Any word whether the existing XR line will also get new apps? Or are they limited to the new Midas product?
my understanding is both.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Any word whether the existing XR line will also get new apps? Or are they limited to the new Midas product?
I depends...
I believe that the iPad app is expected to be updated - and that it's well overdue.
Mixing Station for Android is already frequently updated.
The PC client is in pretty good shape.

Of course, if Music Group do any firmware update at this point, which is likely to apply to the XR line too, then app upgrades may be required to address any new/changed functionality.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #59
Exactly. Just as in the M32/X32 series, the "computer" portion of the mixers is identical, what's different are the AD/DA sections. So I'd expect new firmware and apps to service the XAir/Midas devices.
Old 23rd January 2017
  #60
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
Interesting thought. I was thinking that as well.

With the M32, there was a complete mechanical overhaul in addition to the preamp changes. IMO, this justified the price difference and product differentiation (better faders, more robust chassis, more viewable angle on the UI).

This one seems a bit strange.

Why not just make an XR18 rev 2? Keep the preamps, but fix the router.

The MIDAS version seems a bit out of place. I agree.

Our local theatre has an M32 and they have had numerous problems with the belts on the faders. I'm not convinced that they are much better either mechanically and sonically I would defy anyone to here a decernable difference.
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