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Line array opinions Turntables
Old 4th January 2017
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Thing is, they only use the term as a marketing 'trick' to reel in people who don't know better.
But they do employ either a ribbon treble driver or a compression driver with a waveguide that employs the same wavefront manipulation as those used in proper line array systems. That's why I concede that they have line array properties, even if they can't achieve true line-source behavior. I actually don't think that's much of a stretch. Point source speakers cannot achieve the narrow 9 degree vertical dispersion that a KLA12 can, and it's because of its "line array horn". That aspect makes KLA's much more useful in many situations than point-source.

I'd love nothing better than for there to be another name for near-planar horns, but "line array" is the most widely known term for that property. I don't think it's especially deceitful to adopt it. Let's not forget the bottom medium-field boxes in a typical line array are also not capable of line-source behavior, and also have 8-10 degree vertical dispersion rather than the 5 degrees of the upper boxes responsible for the long-throw line source behavior. Is anyone griping about those? No...

Fact is that if QSC made KLA's that used the exact same drivers but with 5 degree vertical dispersion waveguides and adjustable flying angles, they would be "true line array speakers" and the existing KLA12's would be appropriate for the bottom of the array. Using them like that would not disqualify the configuration as a line array with line-source behavior.

So that means every company that makes medium field line array speakers, from L'Acoustics to Meyer to D&B, is lying about calling them line array speakers. Or maybe folks can just untwist their knickers and concede some middle ground.
Old 5th January 2017
  #62
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Quote:
A line array is a group of omnidirectional radiating elements arrayed in a straight line, closely spaced and operating in phase with equal amplitude.
The quote above was taken from the paper that Wyllys linked to...I really encourage you to read it...The splay angle of the box, the type and placement of the components etc are not part of the definition of a line-array system that included. Plus, a single box that's only inches high is not a line-array box/loudspeaker, a line-array is an array of elements/loudspeakers.
Old 5th January 2017
  #63
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You can't possibly be suggesting that dipole speakers would be appropriate for a line array in a live venue. What constitutes a line array on paper isn't necessarily what works best in the field. The designs that work best for real world line arrays are what have become to be known as "line array speakers". Some of those used for specific purposes within practical line arrays are not practical for producing line-source behavior on their own, but are still called "line array speakers", since they were originally designed only for use in practical line arrays. However, they have found use in configurations other than in line arrays. Then some companies made similar speakers to those and called their product a "line array speaker" since it does the same thing as the other "line array speaker".

And that's all for me folks. If you're craving more elementary logic, please google "Why is the sky blue?"
Old 5th January 2017
  #64
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The definition is self explanatory, I strongly suggest you read the article...Nexo used a dipole design for their GEO D line-array elements and d&b uses a dipole loud speaker arrangement in several of their line source boxes by the way.

Last edited by Samc; 5th January 2017 at 06:01 AM..
Old 5th January 2017
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
And as long as people like you aren't bothering, it'll never get better. It's a bit like saying we shouldn't try to avoid global warming because the amount a single person can contribute barely makes a difference anyway. It took me a while, but I guess this is American thinking; "why would I care? I'm just fine right here!".


Dutchy
Hey now, don't be making broad characterizations... sold any tulips lately?

<caveat - this was intended to be good humor, not an insult or an attack>
Old 5th January 2017
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I've long maintained that mixing audio is not engineering and that sound mixers are not any more engineers than bush-doctors are actually doctors...a lot of people here don't agree.
Agree - Designing, testing and troubleshooting a system (live or studio, no difference) is engineering. Operating and maintaining it requires skills, both technical and creative, but it's not engineering.

The folks on tour I think of as "engineers" are the ones I think are called "system techs" - the guys who tailor and set up the system night after night for each unique venue. That work comes closer to "engineering" than mixing does, in my opinion, but it's still not at the level of engineering performed by the guy(s) back at HQ who decided what components were gonna be on the truck for the system tech to assemble.

This is NOT a measure of disrespect to mixers. Engineering doesn't require ears or creative judgement, you could have a deaf guy design and set-up and align your system to spec.

I'll also say that as organizations get smaller, you'll often have people wearing multiple hats - so they may be both "engineer" and "mixer".
Old 6th January 2017
  #67
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Dutchy15's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Engineering doesn't require ears or creative judgement, you could have a deaf guy design and set-up and align your system to spec.

I don't agree. I am convinced that some 90% of a system engineer's work can be done without listening, but in order to really make it great he/she will need to actually listen to what they've done. Also, listening is much faster than putting a measurement mic in a ton of positions and walking back to see the results.

I do agree that designing and tuning PA systems is much closer to "real engineering" than mixing. The same could be said for stagehands though, unless it's a very large scale production they usually figure out power supply, cable runs, rigging and audio patching on the spot. I think most people who work in the audio business are engineers, just not in the traditional sense.

Back on topic; where's the OP gone?


Dutchy
Old 6th January 2017
  #68
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Engineering doesn't require ears or creative judgement, you could have a deaf guy design and set-up and align your system to spec.
well, maybe _you could, but, no thanks, not on my gig. no blind LD's, or "dumb" TM's either. But, to each their own. :/
although, you might be on to something - maybe if you assembled a team consisting of a deaf engineer, a blind lighting guy, a tour manager who couldn't speak, and a band who couldn't play, and put that show on, it would make artistic history.

Last edited by edva; 6th January 2017 at 12:28 PM.. Reason: c+
Old 6th January 2017
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
I do agree that designing and tuning PA systems is much closer to "real engineering" than mixing. The same could be said for stagehands though, unless it's a very large scale production they usually figure out power supply, cable runs, rigging and audio patching on the spot. I think most people who work in the audio business are engineers, just not in the traditional sense.
None of these stage jobs require specific engineering training or experience to perform...they are all technicians in my opinion, there is no such thing as traditional and non-traditional engineers, you are either an engineer or you're not.

The internationally accepted criteria and standard for calling yourself an engineer is very clear...there are no vagaries here.

The margin of operation of the stage crews falls within the boundaries that are defined and set by engineers who design the stage and all the components (including the setup software) that technicians use to determine what they do.
Old 6th January 2017
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Engineering doesn't require ears or creative judgement, you could have a deaf guy design and set-up and align your system to spec.
Really!?!? How?!?!
Old 6th January 2017
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
well, maybe _you could, but, no thanks, not on my gig. no blind LD's, or "dumb" TM's either. But, to each their own. :/
although, you might be on to something - maybe if you assembled a team consisting of a deaf engineer, a blind lighting guy, a tour manager who couldn't speak, and a band who couldn't play, and put that show on, it would make artistic history.
Nowhere did I equate 'to spec' with 'the music sounds good'.
Old 6th January 2017
  #72
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Nowhere did I equate 'to spec' with 'the music sounds good'.
mostly said in jest. but, i still would not agree with that theory. of course, just my personal opinion. YMMV. Good luck.
Old 6th January 2017
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
mostly said in jest. but, i still would not agree with that theory. of course, just my personal opinion. YMMV. Good luck.
Like you, I was using hyperbole to make my point. Let me wander further down the path...

When an engineer says "in spec", he refers to quantitative, not qualitative measurements. So the spec for a system would consist of measurements taken under certain conditions, all spelled out. Thus, our deaf system tech simply has to take those measurements and adjust the system so he gets the values required, and the system is "in spec".

Whether that will sound pleasing is irrelevant, from the engineering standpoint.

What we want, of course, is something that passes both quantitative AND qualitative judgments. So our deaf system tech isn't much use.

Obviously, we want folks with both the technical knowledge and operational skills we associate with engineering, as well as the skills and talent on the mixing side.
Old 6th January 2017
  #74
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
Back on topic; where's the OP gone?
Dutchy
Still here... posted a few posts back, don't have a lot of line array experience other than flying them so I don't exactly have the highest quantity or quality of input. That being said. I've been following along this time.
Old 6th January 2017
  #75
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Like you, I was using hyperbole to make my point. Let me wander further down the path...

When an engineer says "in spec", he refers to quantitative, not qualitative measurements. So the spec for a system would consist of measurements taken under certain conditions, all spelled out. Thus, our deaf system tech simply has to take those measurements and adjust the system so he gets the values required, and the system is "in spec".

Whether that will sound pleasing is irrelevant, from the engineering standpoint.

What we want, of course, is something that passes both quantitative AND qualitative judgments. So our deaf system tech isn't much use.

Obviously, we want folks with both the technical knowledge and operational skills we associate with engineering, as well as the skills and talent on the mixing side.
Of course, and very well stated. I did not mean to offend. Having said that, we both know, in the real world, a deaf audio technician is an unlikely, if not impossible, scenario. And also of course, here on GS we often do wander down the path, and sometimes use hyperbole to try and make a point, because many of us are audio pro's, and we just enjoy bantering. No harm done, from my perspective at least. Some take it more seriously perhaps, and that's their right too, and equally valid. But I try to keep a lighthearted attitude about all of it. If we ain't having fun, what's the point. IMHO. YMMV. Thanks.
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