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Getting Choir Over The Band
Old 3rd December 2016
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
I've tried moving cardioid mics right next to sections. There are a host of frequencies that ring. One of the mics I may try is a Rode NTG-1 which is a shotgun with a super cardioid pattern. If I can get one section to pop, I'll try to add more. It's pretty much just what you're suggesting.
Remember you need to understand the different nulls of any mic polar patterns. The patterns are named for the relative shape of their pickup patterns. Your concern is where they reject sound.

This is where it is elpful to know the orientation of the mics relative to the loudspeakers and the distance between them. If the feedback path is the reflected sound off the big projection wall and the choir in front of that wall, there's no improvement to be made other than the choir singing twice as loud or the mics being individual hand helds, one to a person.

So how about it? Got the needed measurements and info required for accurate prediction and design?

FYI, here's how it's done for conferencing systems. There is great info which also applies to performance systems and some clear explanation of the "gotchas" involved.

https://youtu.be/G-v6VykZTLY
Old 3rd December 2016
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
You can 'cut' wood with a hammer?
No, you can't. That's my point.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Do you know if any of the solutions mentioned in that thread worked? Just seemed like a lot of people throwing out model numbers of microphones they probably never used before and without knowing where the monitors and FOH loudspeakers in relationship to the mic position.
I ended up getting three of the Neumann shotguns, and love them, a very "musical" sounding shotgun, and they work very well on choir and acoustic instruments. IMHO. Good luck.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
I ended up getting three of the Neumann shotguns, and love them, a very "musical" sounding shotgun, and they work very well on choir and acoustic instruments. IMHO. Good luck.
Thanks, Ed. I'll try the Neumanns.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Thanks, Ed. I'll try the Neumanns.
Remember that Eds situation and application was substantially different than yours. As I understand it, he needed to mic the choir from a distance while your needs are basically to have enough headroom to boost the choir to a level commensurate with or louder than a highly amplified band. These are VERY different. In your situation I can guarantee that it's the overall SYSTEM configuration which needs addressed, not just the type of mic. It's the APPLICATION that's the problem...that and the expectations which need to take in the physics of the situation.

Of course all this would be easier if you'd simply turn the band down 3-6dB...

There are some other mixing tips that would help and not cost anything, but it seems you want to wait until you've tried working out your ideas about solving it with mics. I'll wait until you're ready.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Thanks, Ed. I'll try the Neumanns.
Yes, thanks for the info Ed, now the OP will have to figure out if your situation matches his and if these will actually work for him too.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Remember that Eds situation and application was substantially different than yours. As I understand it, he needed to mic the choir from a distance while your needs are basically to have enough headroom to boost the choir to a level commensurate with or louder than a highly amplified band. These are VERY different. In your situation I can guarantee that it's the overall SYSTEM configuration which needs addressed, not just the type of mic. It's the APPLICATION that's the problem...that and the expectations which need to take in the physics of the situation.

Of course all this would be easier if you'd simply turn the band down 3-6dB...

There are some other mixing tips that would help and not cost anything, but it seems you want to wait until you've tried working out your ideas about solving it with mics. I'll wait until you're ready.
Do you set your lead vocal monitor in the null point of the vocal mic (i.e., behind for cardioid, 45 degree for hypercardiod)? I'm guessing you do. Does it give you more gain before feedback? Yes, it does. Does a less ambient sound sit in front of a mix better? Again, yes. Does a sound with less bleed sit better? More yes. I'm just applying these same principles.

We'll know when I try it. Have you ever even experimented to see if it helps? It's interesting that companies like Audix make a shotgun capsule for their choir mics. If not for situations like this, where would that capsule apply? You're just saying no, which is the worst approach I can think of.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #38
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Well, I just tried it at a rehearsal and guess what? It's perfect! The AT and Rode have different flavors because of their patterns and EQ curves, but they both work. I'm going to order a couple Neumanns and see if they are worth the extra expense. Thanks for the suggestion, Ed.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Well, I just tried it at a rehearsal and guess what? It's perfect! The AT and Rode have different flavors because of their patterns and EQ curves, but they both work. I'm going to order a couple Neumanns and see if they are worth the extra expense. Thanks for the suggestion, Ed.
Well good.

If you run into any more problems or this recurs for some reason, don't be afraid to ask for actual enginering tips.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Well good.

If you run into any more problems or this recurs for some reason, don't be afraid to ask for actual enginering tips.
Because mic selection isn't actual engineering. Dude, you're unreal. Now I remember why I hate this site. Get over yourself.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #41
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I'm glad you're making some headway, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 bits as food for thought . . . I have worked with this exact situation in a number of venues, mic'ing choirs that have to compete with both powerful acoustic and amplified instruments.

The point I'd like to emphasize is that you can't look at a microphone solely by it's general categorization of polar pattern, i.e. assuming that you're going to get similar results with any given SDC cardioid condenser in a given position. When you're pushing the edge of gain-before-feedback with microphones that are relatively far from the source, differences in the smoothness and character of the off-axis response can make just as much of a difference as the polar pattern, and this is an area where it's much more difficult to make a shotgun or hypercardioid perform as well as a comparable cardioid or omni.

My collection of SDC cardioids includes Schoeps CCM4s, Earthworks FMR720HDs, Shure KSM141s, AT4041s, Rode NT-5s, and AT PRO-37s, and I've had them all in front of choirs of wildly varying ages, sizes, and abilities in a sound-reinforcement context. In terms of gain-before-feedback, the Earthworks are head-and-shoulders above the rest. The Schoeps and Shure are next, with the Schoeps being better but not by whole lot. There's then a wide margin, with all the rest being vastly inferior . . . in fact the Schoeps CCM2S omnis when well-placed seem to be even a little better than the Rodes and ATs.

In any case, just wanted to throw this out there while you're trying different stuff.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
I'm glad you're making some headway, but I thought I'd throw in my 2 bits as food for thought . . . I have worked with this exact situation in a number of venues, mic'ing choirs that have to compete with both powerful acoustic and amplified instruments.

The point I'd like to emphasize is that you can't look at a microphone solely by it's general categorization of polar pattern, i.e. assuming that you're going to get similar results with any given SDC cardioid condenser in a given position. When you're pushing the edge of gain-before-feedback with microphones that are relatively far from the source, differences in the smoothness and character of the off-axis response can make just as much of a difference as the polar pattern, and this is an area where it's much more difficult to make a shotgun or hypercardioid perform as well as a comparable cardioid or omni.

My collection of SDC cardioids includes Schoeps CCM4s, Earthworks FMR720HDs, Shure KSM141s, AT4041s, Rode NT-5s, and AT PRO-37s, and I've had them all in front of choirs of wildly varying ages, sizes, and abilities in a sound-reinforcement context. In terms of gain-before-feedback, the Earthworks are head-and-shoulders above the rest. The Schoeps and Shure are next, with the Schoeps being better but not by whole lot. There's then a wide margin, with all the rest being vastly inferior . . . in fact the Schoeps CCM2S omnis when well-placed seem to be even a little better than the Rodes and ATs.

In any case, just wanted to throw this out there while you're trying different stuff.
That's solid advice! Thank you. I'll try some other options out.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Because mic selection isn't actual engineering. Dude, you're unreal. Now I remember why I hate this site. Get over yourself.
If simply swapping out mics can solve your problem, you either grossly mis-stated it, changed something else along with the mics or there was something wrong with your original mics. Did you ever even name the ones you were using?
Did you change or remove the compression from the choir mic signal chain when swapping mics?

Oh, well. Another thread simply seeking validation for a pre-conceived solution. What's new...
Old 3rd December 2016
  #44
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Just curious, it was probably easier to try the microphones than starting the thread, just wondering why the OP didn't do that first.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Just curious, it was probably easier to try the microphones than starting the thread, just wondering why the OP didn't do that first.
One wonders...
Old 3rd December 2016
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Just curious, it was probably easier to try the microphones than starting the thread, just wondering why the OP didn't do that first.
Because I asked for specific mic suggestions. Apparently some people can't read, are engineering geniuses, and love to troll.

Those who didn't fall into these categories were very helpful, and I thank you again.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Because I asked for specific mic suggestions. Apparently some people can't read, are engineering geniuses, and love to troll.

Those who didn't fall into these categories were very helpful, and I thank you again.
It's appropriate to list what you're using that seems to be giving you problems as a starting point, saving time and effort for the folks from whom you expect help, but you couldn't be bothered. There was every chance that with the help and experience available here you could have made it work with what you have, but you're too smart for that, right?

Enjoy your worship.
Old 3rd December 2016
  #48
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By the way, Wyllys. I set you on ignore about five posts ago, so I have no idea what ego you are barking. I'm not interested in your trolling.
Old 4th December 2016
  #49
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I've done things like this several times.
I don't think that you need to use a mic on every singer, but I'd probably start with 4 mics on the choir.
I'd then insert graphic EQs (or 8 band parametrics if you have them available) on all four mic channels and try to get the best gain before feedback.
I'd use the channel EQs almost exclusively for sound shaping.
Try to get the singers as close together as possible.

Shotguns are great if you have the choir close to or even in front of the PA or if you can't put the mics in front of the singers.
They aren't that great if you have a reverberant room and won't help you much if you can put the mics close to the choir that is relatively far behind the PA. If you want to somewhat evenly cover a choir, you'll have to move the shotguns quite far away, which will usually give you worse gain before feedback than cardioids closer to the choir.
Old 4th December 2016
  #50
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OP, did you make any other changes to your system or setup (processing or move something) besides changing the type of microphones, and how many shotguns are you using?
Old 4th December 2016
  #51
KEL
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I have a couple Rodes, they're ok and then quite good by the Ntg3 . I like the battery option in the NTG but frankly the Audio Technica are pretty nice if you don't want to spend for Neumann.

The 416 is pretty standard. I use them in TV production frequently. Good stuffs. Look for used on craigslist
Old 5th December 2016
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetam View Post
I've done things like this several times.
I don't think that you need to use a mic on every singer, but I'd probably start with 4 mics on the choir.
I'd then insert graphic EQs (or 8 band parametrics if you have them available) on all four mic channels and try to get the best gain before feedback.
I'd use the channel EQs almost exclusively for sound shaping.
Try to get the singers as close together as possible.

Shotguns are great if you have the choir close to or even in front of the PA or if you can't put the mics in front of the singers.
They aren't that great if you have a reverberant room and won't help you much if you can put the mics close to the choir that is relatively far behind the PA. If you want to somewhat evenly cover a choir, you'll have to move the shotguns quite far away, which will usually give you worse gain before feedback than cardioids closer to the choir.
This is what I was thinking too.

I am not wild about the shotgun mic idea; however, the general concept is on track.

I have frequently seen people get good results with 4 good cardioid (or hyper cardioid) microphones facing the choir back about 7 feet. In fact, just yesterday my kid's high school band and choir did exactly this on a stage that would be typical of many churches in my area (not superchurch sized by any means).

Make sure that the band is in the null area behind the mic (more perfect with a Cardioid btw).

Good luck and let us know how things work out.
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