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Thoughts on Behringer? Mixers (Digital)
Old 9th July 2018
  #601
Gear Nut
 

Don't worry, its all 'Behrimotions'
Old 10th July 2018
  #602
Lives for gear
At this stage it's all window dressing and black-catting. The X32 launched at a time when there was a vacuum in the low-end live sound/install market for digital consoles - the closest was the M series from Roland which ran around $7k once you added stage boxes.
Old 11th July 2018
  #603
Here for the gear
 

As someone else pointed out, the resale value is important factor when considering what to buy new. If a company has a bad reputation, even if some of their products are of good quality, it's going to be harder to resell their gear when you want to upgrade. I likely wouldn't buy anything Behringer unless it was a good deal used and I thought I could resell close to what I paid for it--not because their products are necessarily bad, I haven't compared them with other brands, but because of the general perception of Behringer in the industry.
Old 12th July 2018
  #604
Lives for gear
You can spend your money how you chose to. The Idea that you can get your money back selling Yamaha or Mackie audio gear second hand but just not on Behringer is plainly false.

All gear loses value the moment you take it out of the shop and it becomes "second hand".
People clutching at straws to support their own biases is NOTHING new. Car brand A vs car brand B is a classic topic when guys get together and talk smack. Just don't believe that its anything more than that.
Old 12th July 2018
  #605
Gear Maniac
 

Inspired by the post about resale values, and of course, the assumption that all Behringer kit is rip-off junk, I'll summarise my own experiences with kit I've owned, or spent a lot of time with over the last 20+ years. Some hits, some so-so, and a few complete turkeys. What surprised me most was the resale value for the kit I've moved on...

Mixers
MX3282 mixer - still going strong after 20 years in a church. Not the most sophisticated, but carries on doing a basic job, and huge value for money in terms of GBP per year. Needed attention to switches as they became a little intermittent in the last few years - basic servicing.
UB2222FX mixer - decent small mixer - replaced recently with an XR18, sold on ebay for reasonable 50% recoup of new price.
UB802 mixer - great little utility mixer. Used rarely, won't get rid of as there's always an odd job for this to do.
XR18 - awesome bang for buck. My go-to mixer for small events these days. Would have preferred it without the Hi-Z inputs, as they're slightly noisier than the regular mic-pres, but nothing out of order in this price range and for small events.
X32 - use this regularly in a venue. No complaints - does what it says on the tin, at a stupidly low price.

Outboard
MDX4400 4 channel gate/compressor - provided basic dynamics in an analog setup. Sold as no longer needed. Purchased used, eBayed 6 years later for original used price.
MDX2200 2 channel gate/compressor - had 4 of these. One developed a fault on the metering, but worked otherwise. Each cost GBP 10-25 used. No longer needed, have not got round to selling yet.
DSP1100 feedback destroyer - disappointing, as found by most users, and of course not the magic bullet hoped for. Ebayed 12 years later for 50% of new price.
DSP1024 Virtualizer multiFX - worked OK, and reasonable effects, but a near impenetrable interface. Ebayed for the original used price
FBQ3102HD Dual graphic EQ - used in a venue system on monitors - not very lovely - noisy. Was very happy when its owner removed it.
DC2496 speaker management - used in a church to provide delay & a little EQ for last 10 years - works very well.

Amplifiers
EP2500 power amp - 2 of these used to power FOH in a church for 12 years - very happy - keepers.
EPQ2000 power amp - used to power monitors - very happy - keeper.

Misc
DI-100 DI box - OK for budget use, and not a disaster at the price. I bought better ones, but will use these if presented with them at other places if I don't have my own.
DI-20 Dual DI box - Unusably noisy. Behringer's biggest turkey, unbelievable they're still selling. Ebayed for bizarrely just above the new price.
CT100 cable tester - brilliant. Absolute keeper.
Old 12th July 2018
  #606
Lives for gear
 

The (bad) reputation they have didn’t just fall from the sky, it was earned, and the fact that this persists despite all their success is their own fault. What is ridiculous is that some people (with an air of righteousness) are claiming that this is all bias and **** talking as if the experiences people have had were not real. As if the various transgressions were just made up by people who hate the company for no reason.

There are many companies in this industry that have been around for many more years who don’t carry this baggage around, and whose army of fan boys and ‘dedicated’ employees don’t have the need to constantly defend them and their history. Just saying.
Old 12th July 2018
  #607
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
The (bad) reputation they have didn’t just fall from the sky, it was earned, and the fact that this persists despite all their success is their own fault. What is ridiculous is that some people (with an air of righteousness) are claiming that this is all bias and **** talking as if the experiences people have had were not real. As if the various transgressions were just made up by people who hate the company for no reason.

There are many companies in this industry that have been around for many more years who don’t carry this baggage around, and whose army of fan boys and ‘dedicated’ employees don’t have the need to constantly defend them and their history. Just saying.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Brand loyalty and bias against the "other" brand is perfectly NORMAL human behaviour. This isn't a phenomena unique to Behringer because Behringer has done something to deserve it.

In Australia if your a fan of locally made cars then your a FORD guy or a HOLDEN guy.

You drive a Ford and you diss on Holden's or you drive a Holden and diss on Ford's.

They're both CARS! That's all.

Samc is entitled to his biases but that's it.
Old 12th July 2018
  #608
Lives for gear
 

There is a deeper philosophical question surrounding Beringer's history. Their blatant disregard of the legal rights to manufacture popular patented gear when packaged with extremely aggressive marketing efforts established a significant cash flow that enabled the purchase of several companies they had been stealing from.
The question is, has a parallel improvement of their corporate integrity matched the improvement of their balance sheet? Given their sordid business history, how can you work with an entity you don't fully trust?
Hugh
Old 12th July 2018
  #609
Lives for gear
Again. Behringer is not the first company in the World to have been accused of , or found guilty, of patent violations. Many have done it or been accused of it. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those complaining about patent violations by Behringer have not violated someone else's patents themselves.

Volkswagen are in big trouble at the moment for lying about emissions and a few other large car companies are likely to be found to have been doing the same thing soon.

The USA has Donald Trump.

Seriously. Why the unreasonable hatred for Behringer?
Old 12th July 2018
  #610
Lives for gear
 
mojo filters's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Brand loyalty and bias against the "other" brand is perfectly NORMAL human behaviour. This isn't a phenomena unique to Behringer because Behringer has done something to deserve it.

In Australia if your a fan of locally made cars then your a FORD guy or a HOLDEN guy.

You drive a Ford and you diss on Holden's or you drive a Holden and diss on Ford's.

They're both CARS! That's all.

Samc is entitled to his biases but that's it.
Your car analogy is a false equivalency, in respect of perceived bias and brand loyalty in this context. The various vehicles made in each class by Ford and Holden were generally of similar quality, and both brands have similar ranges spanning similar price points.

By contrast a Behringer fan here claimed the X32 was equivalent to a modern and lower priced LS9. As a regular user of the latter, I think that is grossly unfair to the Yamaha product.

Whilst the QL series are gradually taking over, I still have no problem hiring in an LS9. For the typical duties such small, low channel count and limited feature set products are used for, I don't see LS9s replaced with X32.

I've nothing against the X32, but I'm never going to choose one over an LS9 for 99% of the work I'd typically use such for. That's good, because it's still easier for me to spec and LS9 vs an X32.

Most of my usage is the polar opposite of heavy duty cycle, but there's a certain security in using a standard product which is a known quantity, even if it might be slightly dated in respect of certain more esoteric features.

I don't honestly think I've used enough Behringer gear to say I can speak with authority as to whatever reputation they have, nor if it is deserved. However the fact that I don't see folks who make a living investing in this type of product, buying big into Behringer - must be indicative of some reasonably coherent investment strategy.
Old 12th July 2018
  #611
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

Speaking philosophically: If a company has generated feelings of outright hatred as expressed by some in this thread, what would they have to do to become a company without the negative emotional attachment? My feeling is that for some here Behringer could solve half of the world's problems and it wouldn't matter. That no "salvation" is possible.

That seems unreasonable to me. You can choose not to purchase someone's products or patronize their business without having an unnatural ever-ending hatred for that company that eliminates any possibility of objective thought concerning their products.

At one point or another there have been companies in this industry who have perpetrated greater "atrocities" but do not generate the emotional responses associated with Behringer. It doesn't matter whether you would use their products, or consider yourself above their products. To deny that there is a market and a need would be to deny their undeniable success as an equipment manufacturer in an industry where failure is far more common than success.

Japanese electronics manufacturing was built on some of the practices for which Behringer is demonized. And there was certainly a backlash against their products, while still a healthy appetite for the same, as anyone who grew up in the 60's and 70's can attest. There are plenty of examples of companies who have taken over others to an extreme far beyond Behringer - such as Harmon. There have been products that should have never been released and sold to the public like certain period of Crown amps that blew up like every day was the 4th of July. There have been companies that have ruined their own products without any outside influence such as Gibson and Martin at certain points of time.

And so I have to assume that at some point we will achieve an equal resurrection of the ability to eliminate emotion from the evaluation of a company. I am genuinely curious as to what triggers this change in people's perception.

Regards,
Brock
Old 12th July 2018
  #612
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Samc is entitled to his biases but that's it.
This is like saying people who wash their hands when they go to the toilet or are careful when they cross a busy street paranoid...and your car analogy is so wrong it’s totally irrelevant and useless in this discussion.

The discussion is not about another product being better or not, it’s about what’s wrong with Behringer.
Old 12th July 2018
  #613
Lives for gear
 

Apparently the argument that others have been bad too is the new justification and excuse...
Old 12th July 2018
  #614
Gear Head
 
Holden Sandman's Avatar
A few of years ago I would never have thought I would have Behringer made synthesisers in my studio.

Now I have a Model D and Deepmind 12 which are both superb.

Personally I am brand agnostic. I don't care who the manufacturer is, I care about the sound and result I'll get from the product.

Behringer are pushing hard into the synth market right now, they are filling gaps that the incumbents have left open for years. If other manufacturers feel heat from Behringer then that's a good thing, because for years the big names have ignored the demands of the marketplace.
Old 12th July 2018
  #615
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post

The discussion is not about another product being better or not, it’s about what’s wrong with Behringer.
Freudian slip here Samc.

Your clearly demonstrating that you just want to prove that Behringer is guilty of some sort of misdemeanour and nothing else matters to you.

In your eyes Behringer are incapable of redemption although you probably don't ponder for a second the transgressions of Big Oil companies when you buy petrol/Diesel for your car/van.
Old 12th July 2018
  #616
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Freudian slip here Samc.

Your clearly demonstrating that you just want to prove that Behringer is guilty of some sort of misdemeanour and nothing else matters to you.

In your eyes Behringer are incapable of redemption although you probably don't ponder for a second the transgressions of Big Oil companies when you buy petrol/Diesel for your car/van.

Exactly why he's on my ignore list. This thread isn't "about what's wrong with Behringer" as Samc professes. Which does take a bit of hubris to believe this thread is all about your point of view. In fact, it is "thoughts about Behringer". Which would presume to leave room for different points of view and indeed not be a "what Samc thinks is wrong with Behringer" thread. Which, as we are well aware, is that he thinks everything is wrong with Behringer; that they are the most devilish, corrupt, morally bereft company in all of manufacturing history with absolutely no redeeming values or hope for rehabilitation.

Enjoy hell, Uli. You are beyond salvation.

Have a great day everybody!
Brock
Old 12th July 2018
  #617
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 View Post
Person one: the Volkswagen revolutionised transportation
.....
Here we go again!

Maybe I should start an off-topic thread about gun control - it'd go in just about the same circular arguments...
Old 12th July 2018
  #618
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstapper View Post
Exactly why he's on my ignore list.
I don’t know why you keep making this proclamation, it might be a big deal for you, or maybe you mistake me for someone who gives a rat’s ass that I’m on your
Ignore list.
Old 12th July 2018
  #619
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecSp View Post
Here we go again!

Maybe I should start an off-topic thread about gun control - it'd go in just about the same circular arguments...
Or....you could just stop participating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecSp View Post
Inspired by the post about resale values, and of course, the assumption that all Behringer kit is rip-off junk, I'll summarise my own experiences with kit I've owned, or spent a lot of time with over the last 20+ years. Some hits, some so-so, and a few complete turkeys. What surprised me most was the resale value for the kit I've moved on...
Old 14th July 2018
  #620
Gear Maniac
 
RetroFunk's Avatar
I use B kit for PA, used the MX2004A for many, perfect item, used with their Graphic EQ, perfect. Although the Graphic EQ can suffer with by-pass relay, psu rectifier failures (easy fix though).

Good point about the Feedback Destroyer, mine being a DSP1100 (post #605 ) - in theory it should work, it's all designed correctly but in practise, I found to not quite there so I wouldn't consider this for real feedback suppression, better to learn how to do it "the old fashioned way". But as a midi CC controllable 24 band parametric eq, it's really GOOD! I've read of people finding uses for it other than it's original intention.

That DI-20 box = poop. As mentioned it's way too noisy, it has some really good features, but just too noisy, it's one product B really should stop selling, it's poop.

For the geeks, if you ever get some free tech time, run some tests on B kit, you may well be surprised. I ran some basic tests on a mixeramp and was amazed at the performance!
Old 14th July 2018
  #621
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo filters View Post
By contrast a Behringer fan here claimed the X32 was equivalent to a modern and lower priced LS9. As a regular user of the latter, I think that is grossly unfair to the Yamaha product.

Whilst the QL series are gradually taking over, I still have no problem hiring in an LS9. For the typical duties such small, low channel count and limited feature set products are used for, I don't see LS9s replaced with X32.
I have personally seen several LS9's replaced with an X32. I know of many other sound professionals who have replaced their LS9 stock with X32's.

I did not claim that the X32 was equivalent, I claim that it is superior in nearly every way. It sounds better, it is easier to use, it has better app support, and a better support infrastructure.

Please let me know what an LS9 does better than an X32. I have worked on both quite a bit.
Old 14th July 2018
  #622
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

The LS9 was obsolete years before the x32 came out. Yamaha got as much as they could out of those puppies.
Old 15th July 2018
  #623
Gear Nut
I'd like to address the rip off argument from a chip manufacturers point of view. When you buy A2D or D2A chips, you can get recommended circuit designs right from the chip manufacturer. There's really no need to dissect the competition's design to come up with a great working circuit. That's the underlying reason so many products have similar feature sets. Many on this forum familiar with building their own computers and the reason that most are successful is that all the components are made to work together from the get go. Building a digital audio product is much the same way. Not much secret sauce required.
Old 15th July 2018
  #624
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstapper View Post
The LS9 was obsolete years before the x32 came out. Yamaha got as much as they could out of those puppies.
Indeed.

The LS9 really introduced digital mixing to the bar-band/festival/HOW level market. It was silly reliable and held many advantages over the analog consoles it replaced.

It was expensive, and hard to use. It didn't sound as good as some analog boards that could be had at the same price point. Still, it did many things better, and had a smaller footprint than the competition.

The tech was simply outdated. The X32 was designed with the advantage of 15 years newer work flows and chip designs at its disposal.

IIRC, in its day, the LS9 actually displaced many sales of the M7CL which was considered a "big boy" digital mixer in comparison (and which was priced 2 times as high as the LS9).

Yamaha really established the <30K digital mixer market. Behringer established the <3K digital mixer market though..... and that is QUITE a bit of difference.
Old 15th July 2018
  #625
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post
I'd like to address the rip off argument from a chip manufacturers point of view. When you buy A2D or D2A chips, you can get recommended circuit designs right from the chip manufacturer. There's really no need to dissect the competition's design to come up with a great working circuit. That's the underlying reason so many products have similar feature sets. Many on this forum familiar with building their own computers and the reason that most are successful is that all the components are made to work together from the get go. Building a digital audio product is much the same way. Not much secret sauce required.
[chuckles]

First thing I tell all my junior engineers .... "Don't deviate from the application notes without a damn good reason!".

... and you are correct, today, you buy the chip, follow the app notes, and you will get nearly perfect A2D and D2A conversions. The "secret sauce" lies elsewhere
Old 15th July 2018
  #626
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
Indeed.

The LS9 really introduced digital mixing to the bar-band/festival/HOW level market. It was silly reliable and held many advantagesrs over the analog consoles it replaced.
This is heresy! As far as I know this title belongs to the Yamaha 01V which was released in 1998 followed by the 01V/96 which was released five years later in 2003. The LS9 was only released in 2006 and while they claimed it was based on L7CL technology, it had more in common with the 01V and was relevant because of the immense popularity and success of the latter.

The 01V/01V96 were everywhere, and every rental house carried them...they were principal mixers in small venues of all types, for smaller bands, studios and sub-mixers in bigger bands, venues and festivals. I’m pretty sure the LS9 did not sell as well as the 01V / 01V/96.
Old 16th July 2018
  #627
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
This is heresy! As far as I know this title belongs to the Yamaha 01V which was released in 1998 followed by the 01V/96 which was released five years later in 2003. The LS9 was only released in 2006 and while they claimed it was based on L7CL technology, it had more in common with the 01V and was relevant because of the immense popularity and success of the latter.

The 01V/01V96 were everywhere, and every rental house carried them...they were principal mixers in small venues of all types, for smaller bands, studios and sub-mixers in bigger bands, venues and festivals. I’m pretty sure the LS9 did not sell as well as the 01V / 01V/96.
Arguably, the 01V (and its many iterations), didn't reach a maturity of features which made a compelling argument against the analog mixers of the time with similar channel count until later in its life cycle.

Not sure about the sales figures; however, I will give you they predate the LS9. The 01v was not popular in my neck of the woods for live mixing due to the horrendous work flow (worse than the LS9 even). Perhaps your experience is different. I would argue that the 01v never made a dent in the live mixing market. In the entire life cycle of the 01v, I never once saw it in a club as the venue's console or had a local band using one (exclusively analog mixers with some Presonus studio live .... although one could argue that the Presonus was not a fully digital mixer easily .... it certainly lacked some of the critical features).

I would provide an educated guess that there are 10 times more X32's out there than the combined total sales of the 01v and LS9 put together.
Old 16th July 2018
  #628
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post

Please let me know what an LS9 does better than an X32. I have worked on both quite a bit.
Ability to handle 64 channels, 32 faders on hand. If you want these features the x32 is dead in the water.
Old 16th July 2018
  #629
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil0 View Post
Ability to handle 64 channels, 32 faders on hand. If you want these features the x32 is dead in the water.
If you want those features, and you buy an LS9, people are gonna laugh and point.
Old 16th July 2018
  #630
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneEng View Post
Arguably, the 01V (and its many iterations), didn't reach a maturity of features which made a compelling argument against the analog mixers of the time with similar channel count until later in its life cycle.
There were only two additional versions, both of which provided a marked improvement on the original because they were based on customer requests, but it was the plain 01V and 01V/96 that brought digital mixing to the masses worldwide, there is absolutely no question about that. In fact there are a few still being used as sub mixers in bigger rigs today because of the simple fact that they are bulletproof and are rack mountable.

Quote:
Not sure about the sales figures; however, I will give you they predate the LS9. The 01v was not popular in my neck of the woods for live mixing due to the horrendous work flow (worse than the LS9 even). Perhaps your experience is different. I would argue that the 01v never made a dent in the live mixing market. In the entire life cycle of the 01v, I never once saw it in a club as the venue's console or had a local band using one (exclusively analog mixers with some Presonus studio live .... although one could argue that the Presonus was not a fully digital mixer easily .... it certainly lacked some of the critical features).
My observations are not limited to a specific geographical region and can easily be verified, and in 1998 they had no competition so their workflow was the “standard”. They were bulletproof, which did a lot to convince sceptics about the reliability of digital consoles...the fact that they were relatively compact, easily transportable and could fit into a standard rack case, made them even more popular. By the year 2000 it seemed that every bar/cover band and small venue were using it, and it was quickly integrated into bigger pro rigs as a sub mixers...your observation about the impact on the live mixing market is very wrong.

Quote:
I would provide an educated guess that there are 10 times more X32's out there than the combined total sales of the 01v and LS9 put together.
And you are probably correct, but that is not what’s being disputed here, plus, despite the impressive sales figures I personally don't see the X32 in as many pro situations as the 01V...and this is not revisionist theory or history.
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