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Favorite effects settings, X32 & X-Air
Old 27th December 2015
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adastra View Post
Just a small thing about delays, but don't always feel beholden to exact tempos. Some of the coolest delay effects are off time or by triplets. Delay can do so many things. It can work very subtly, almost indistinguishable from a verb, or it can obviously be very over the top. A big thing for me was learning to get away from just riding delay returns and instead to ride delay sends. This can open up a lot of really different sounds. A favorite of mine is to ride the send up on a vowel sound in the middle of the phrase with a long delay, and then let it ring out underneath the live vocal. If you pick the right vowel and time it right it works like a synth bed, creating a harmony underneath the main vocal line.
Another technique is to run delays into verbs or vice versa, just another way to create new sounds. Finally, I tend to be a bit extreme with EQ on effect returns. I probably spend more time on that than on the reverb parameters. Just me, and it always depends on the sound, but its worth mentioning just as an option.
These are techniques that experienced reggae and dub mixers use, verb into delay, two different delays on certain inputs and using the send as you described on certain vocal passages or horn riffs are almost standard fare especially for older Jamaican mixers.

Quote:
Also, I wouldn't necessarily pressure yourself to have highly specific fx on every single song. A good way to get going could be do have a default that will work in general, but over time find a couple songs where something different will work better. Then maybe you go back to "home base" until you have a good reason for another "special" effect.
I usually use a stereo reverb to put the band in the same space, everything that gets reverb gets some off this...some channels got more than others obviously and while other reverbs may get readjusted (during the performance) I almost never adjust the parameters of this reverb, it's sole purpose is to put everybody in the same acoustic space.
Old 27th December 2015
  #62
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Dutchy15's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
I usually use a stereo reverb to put the band in the same space, everything that gets reverb gets some off this...some channels got more than others obviously and while other reverbs may get readjusted (during the performance) I almost never adjust the parameters of this reverb, it's sole purpose is to put everybody in the same acoustic space.
This is very interesting. Is this something you do for a certain genre only? I can imagine a heavy rock band doesn't benefit from such a reverb. Also, I can imagine this depends quite heavily on the venue's acoustics. A lot of indoor venues already have rather lively acoustics, though for an outdoor gig it makes all the sense in the world.

Is there a specific type of reverb you would use for this? A room or dark hall perhaps?

@adastra; EQ on fx returns is usually a lot of cutting in the lows and highs with me. Is there anything specific you like to do here?

Riding the send levels is something I'll try for sure! I certainly see a lot of BE's do it, it always makes me happy to see somebody has to work on such details that make great mixes stand out.


Dutchy
Old 28th December 2015
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchy15 View Post
This is very interesting. Is this something you do for a certain genre only? I can imagine a heavy rock band doesn't benefit from such a reverb.
No, it's not genre specific, I try to put the entire band in a space because it adds to the effect of them playing together. Room acoustics, genre and the performance dictates the decay, the pre delay and the blend but usually it's almost subliminal.

Quote:
Also, I can imagine this depends quite heavily on the venue's acoustics. A lot of indoor venues already have rather lively acoustics, though for an outdoor gig it makes all the sense in the world.
Obviously the venue's acoustics play a role but I often use it in a live room because I can still use it on certain instruments to establish a particular space. I can also use EQ or filters to target a specific frequency band and stay out of the room's way.

Quote:
Is there a specific type of reverb you would use for this? A room or dark hall perhaps?
It's usually a room or hall which may also be coupled to a stereo delay...it depends.
Old 28th December 2015
  #64
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@adastra,

Quote:
Sorry, but this absolutely false and honestly very counter to good engineering practices. A great vocalist on an appropriate mic can be absolutely exquisite with little to no help. Yeah, I pretty much always do a little HPF, but you think Tony Bennet needs a bunch of parametric correction? Not likely. And in the bigger picture, its just missing the point that good sound happens at the source. No correction or processing you can do at the board will ever be as good as getting the right source. Another way of putting this is that Tony Bennett will sound infinitely better through a 58 and a mackie than Kelly Osbourne through a Neumann and an SD7.

Does processing help? Of course it can, but its always essentially damage control. Performance first, capture second, and process last. That should be the priority list. This is worth emphasizing because unfortunately the wealth of tools available to the beginner these days tends to emphasize the opposite approach, basically encouraging a "**** it, fix it in post" mentality.
I was actually assuming that someone had a gross amount of eq on the vocal, not that the lack of eq would make or break a great vocalist with a great microphone, but I can see how this could get missed reading my post. I should have emphasized this point.

I think that poor speakers and microphones require a fair amount of eq to get a good sound out of (in general) while really good microphones and speakers require little or none at all.

Thanks for your information on verbs.

I have also seen a delay used in a way that came off much like a reverb.

I took another look at my setup. I am in fact using a room on my snare, not a hall (20mSec pre delay and 2.16 sec decay). I misspoke.

As for the choir or BGV's, I have heard some recommend creating a subgroup and applying some compression to it in order to glue the voices together more tightly. I haven't done it, but then again, my background "group" is only 2 people Maybe if I were doing a larger group this would be worth while. I hadn't thought about using a different verb for the background vocals though. Thanks. It sounds like a good idea.

Quote:
Also, I wouldn't necessarily pressure yourself to have highly specific fx on every single song. A good way to get going could be do have a default that will work in general, but over time find a couple songs where something different will work better. Then maybe you go back to "home base" until you have a good reason for another "special" effect.
Good advice. I am still working on getting a quick way to boost the lead some pre-determined amount of DB from current level, and doing something similar (boost, or lower) for vocal lead changes (will likely use DCA's for this so the overall mix stays constant). Those two things are on the top of my show automation list. I am thinking of using the X32 scenes/snipits/cues features in concert with a small MIDI pedal.
Old 28th December 2015
  #65
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
No, it's not genre specific, I try to put the entire band in a space because it adds to the effect of them playing together. Room acoustics, genre and the performance dictates the decay, the pre delay and the blend but usually it's almost subliminal.
This is a myth taken from the recording world rarely working in real acoustic environments where live music happens except some outdoor situations or nearly deadened rooms. In all other cases this technique will not be 'almost subliminal' but considering the reverberant space of the auditorium either unheard or overdone.
In real environments for concerts the artificial reverb mostly stays 'effect' for some sources and you are unable to create a 'room within a room'.
Old 28th December 2015
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
In all other cases this technique will not be 'almost subliminal' but considering the reverberant space of the auditorium either unheard or overdone.
In real environments for concerts...
He isn't speculating, he's saying that he actually does this.

Chris
Old 28th December 2015
  #67
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
No, it's not genre specific, I try to put the entire band in a space because it adds to the effect of them playing together. Room acoustics, genre and the performance dictates the decay, the pre delay and the blend but usually it's almost subliminal.


Obviously the venue's acoustics play a role but I often use it in a live room because I can still use it on certain instruments to establish a particular space. I can also use EQ or filters to target a specific frequency band and stay out of the room's way.


It's usually a room or hall which may also be coupled to a stereo delay...it depends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
This is a myth taken from the recording world rarely working in real acoustic environments where live music happens except some outdoor situations or nearly deadened rooms. In all other cases this technique will not be 'almost subliminal' but considering the reverberant space of the auditorium either unheard or overdone.
In real environments for concerts the artificial reverb mostly stays 'effect' for some sources and you are unable to create a 'room within a room'.
I'm going with Sam on this. He clearly states that the technique is venue/situation specific and applied at a level so subtle as to be subliminal. I do...or try to do...the same thing.

As to "artificial reverb", the technique takes into account the "natural reverb" and uses it as a basis for creating/simulating/maintaining a coherency characterized as a "room". It is not an "effect".

But it all depends on whether you practice "sound reinforcement" or simply use raw amplification.
Old 28th December 2015
  #68
Gear Head
 

Yes he's doing but as a recommendation it seems to be nearly worthless.
Old 28th December 2015
  #69
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Wyllys's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
Yes he's doing but as a recommendation it seems to be nearly worthless.
It is certainly NOT worthless. It requires some thought and a depth of understanding of the basic nature of sound and how to reproduce it in the most natural manner. That in itself is worth considering.
Old 28th December 2015
  #70
Gear Head
 

Oh, thank you for the lesson. I already know a bit about the physics of reverberation ...
Old 28th December 2015
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
Yes he's doing but as a recommendation it seems to be nearly worthless.
Have you ever tried this technique...more than once, and if yes can you give the specifics of what you did?
Old 28th December 2015
  #72
Gear Head
 

Yes I did some thousand times in the last fourty years with the results mentioned above. I did it from starting with the early good sounding units like lexicon 200, 300, 480, tc M5000 to the new hardware units like pcm92, reverb 4000 and bricasti and the more or less good sounding console built ins in midas pro, Yamaha CL, DiGiCo SD, A&H ilive and GLD. I tried it embedding or combining by using predelay, slower buildup as you can manage with the shape and spread parameters in the lexicon algorithms and with and without different ER levels and patterns. Nature is too complex and parameters of the algorithms are too simple to get reliable results in time from show to show. I love good sounding reverb but i'm disillusioned about the use of this studio technique in reverberant environment.
Perhaps you should reevaluate your practice possibly finding some sort of self-deception.

Last edited by gundula; 28th December 2015 at 05:43 AM..
Old 28th December 2015
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
Nature is too complex and parameters of the algorithms are too simple to get reliable results in time from show to show.
Artificial reverb may not suite your taste but I'm able to get satisfactory results night after night by adjusting the parameters of the reverb as needed.

Quote:
I love good sounding reverb but i'm desillusioned about the use of this studio technique in reverberant environment.
Are you saying it doesn't work, or are you saying it doesn't work in reverberant rooms?

Quote:
Perhaps you should reevalue your practice possibly finding some sort of self-deception.
At best all you can say is that you don't like it because it does work...you not liking it is your prerogative, but it's really important that you realize that this is just your opinion, nothing else.
Old 28th December 2015
  #74
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Old 28th December 2015
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundula View Post
Considering that https://www.gearslutz.com/board/live...ose-forum.html thread, this is a not too amazing course ... with not too deep insight in human nature and the way forum heroes argue...
Ah, the reality of course is that you came here to pick a fight...but your attitude gave away the plot already, you came in a tad too hot there sunshine.
Old 28th December 2015
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Ah, the reality of course is that you came here to pick a fight...but your attitude gave away the plot already, you came in a tad too hot there sunshine.
Ok, I tried to help you looking into the mirror and I'm pleased to be the sunshine
Old 29th December 2015
  #77
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S21's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by adastra View Post
Hope I'm not being pedantic here, but to address a lot of the back and forth in this thread, I will say this. Its absolutely worthwhile to exchange ideas about FX, to share techniques and favorites and all that. What diminishes the value in the discussion is to frame it as "which preset on board X is your favorite?" Instead, why not discuss the real meat and potatoes, meaning - what types of verbs do you use for various things, what parameters do you like on those verbs and why. No need to limit it to one desk, and no need to limit it to those predefined versions. Wouldn't everyone learn more about the fundamentals by discussing the actual FX, not simply listing off their favorite preset number?
There really aren't "presets" on these behringer boards. There are just loads of emulated outboard fx units.

In the past everyone's FX racks were a little unique. Now there are 100,000 people around the world with the same 30 emulated outboard FX. Lots of users with the same tools, working on different projects. I was hoping that there was something to be shared.
Old 30th December 2015
  #78
Gear Maniac
 

The gates and compressors definitely have built in presets. All the other fx can load presets but they don't come pre loaded. There isn't much documentation for them, apparently they are copies of famous outboard gear, so the best thing to do is look at the "original" manuals for guidance.
Old 30th December 2015
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 View Post
There really aren't "presets" on these behringer boards. There are just loads of emulated outboard fx units.

In the past everyone's FX racks were a little unique. Now there are 100,000 people around the world with the same 30 emulated outboard FX. Lots of users with the same tools, working on different projects. I was hoping that there was something to be shared.
There are some preset packs that Behringer put together with the 2.X firmware release. You can download them from the website.

I agree with you. If you can find someone who has a set of FX settings they use for different purposes, this can be a great learning tool and help you get better sound.

I have even been to a show where an X32 was being used that I liked what I heard and got the scene file from the sound engineer who was glad to share it with me.

Your chances are pretty good btw. If you post over on the Behringer forum, there are several guys that run sound companies that have patterned their sound from their old analog rigs that might be willing to share scenes with you. I doubt you will get a huge line of them telling you that it is "silly".
Old 30th December 2015
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil0 View Post
The gates and compressors definitely have built in presets. All the other fx can load presets but they don't come pre loaded. There isn't much documentation for them, apparently they are copies of famous outboard gear, so the best thing to do is look at the "original" manuals for guidance.
You know .... now I just feel dumb. I don't know why I never thought of this. Great idea. Thanks for the post.
Old 30th December 2015
  #81
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Could someone who owns a PCM70 post the settings for the Rich Plate?
Old 3rd January 2016
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixieotronic View Post
A nice discussion derailed by the usual suspect, the ignore list is a godsend
Can you please direct me to the ignore list?
Edit: never mind, found it.
Old 12th January 2016
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Ah, the reality of course is that you came here to pick a fight...but your attitude gave away the plot already, you came in a tad too hot there sunshine.
Pot calling the kettle black there sunshine. You're demonstrating an incapability to grasp that other people's backgrounds, circumstances and situations might be different than your own. It takes grace to allow others the room to express their ideas freely without feeling the need to badger and hector them, even if they're not working in the same arena professionally as you.

Last edited by ray_subsonic; 12th January 2016 at 05:21 PM..
Old 12th January 2016
  #84
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Why don't you do something useful and post your favorite settings...have the grace to allow me to express myself freely instead of trying to teach me how to suck eggs. Have a nice day.
Old 15th January 2016
  #85
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MixingWizard's Avatar
I kinda took this thread to mean "what programs don't suck". For instance, on an M7 the standard plate setting is BAAAD but the Plate-x is actually pretty good (I think it was a software update.) We don't always get the time to run through 40 different reverb types, so it's good to know where to start.

I'm afraid I haven't used the x32 enough to remember any of the verbs though so I can help you!
Old 16th January 2016
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixingWizard View Post
I kinda took this thread to mean "what programs don't suck". For instance, on an M7 the standard plate setting is BAAAD but the Plate-x is actually pretty good (I think it was a software update.) We don't always get the time to run through 40 different reverb types, so it's good to know where to start.

I'm afraid I haven't used the enough to remember any of the verbs though so I can help you!
Completely off topic, but your avatar gave me a good laugh I think I have heard that band before!
Old 25th October 2016
  #87
Wow this thread is such a waste of time, thanks guys ! 3 pages of arguments.

Can anyone give insight on the quality of Behringer's emulation? LA2a, dbx etc... any " particularly good to me" effect on different sources ( whatever they are) would be a good place to start tweeking when I receive my X-18

for example in the software domain, the Metric Halo gate in the channel strip is way more delicate and useful than most I ve used. Any effect in the X series console "work" particularly good ?
Old 19th June 2017
  #88
Gear interested
 

What I learned in this thread: there are some serious jacka$$es inhabiting this site.

JFC - if you don't like the question being asked - how about you move the f@#$ along rather than berating everyone on the thread? Pompous *********s are abundant here, clearly.
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