The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
iPad Pro 2018 .. Your Thoughts Keyboard Controllers
Old 4th April 2018
  #1
Lives for gear
 

iPad Pro 2018 .. Your Thoughts

So I've been reading about and watching these rumors on the upcoming 2018 iPad Pro's. Not sure I'm into having a screen with no bezel (or close to none) for hand held use. Also not sure I like getting rid of the headphone jack and home button. The more powerful processor would be welcome of course. I still have about a week to return this new 2017 10.5" iPad Pro I just bought direct from Apple .. I may or may not return it and wait till June for the official announcement from Apple .. So what are your thoughts?
Old 5th April 2018
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

If you don't need it and can wait until June, return it. You can always get it again either on sale when the new ones come out or as a refurb for less.
Old 6th April 2018
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bioroid View Post
If you don't need it and can wait until June, return it. You can always get it again either on sale when the new ones come out or as a refurb for less.
I was thinking of doing that .. don't really need any of it, you can see in this pic how I'm using the iPad .. its out of sheer laziness so I can kick back on the couch and run everything from the Roland A-49 and iPad (that maple rack the JD-800 sits on is full of synths too) It gets tiring sitting in that office chair all day everyday staring at those three monitors full of VST plugins, my other rig (bottom pic) in the other room is even more uncomfortable to work at .. the couch rules With my new iPad Pro 10.5 in the pic, its sitting on an IK Multimedia adjustable angle stand I really like .. but with my new iPads thin bezel, the stand arms at the bottom already block parts of the lower screen and require me to use a stylus to move faders, add track names, etc. down low on the screen. With no bezel like rumors are talking about on the upcoming new iPad Pro's, it would take a whole new stand setup that doesn't have those arm thingies that keep an iPad from sliding forward off the stand to be able to access everything at the bottom of the screen (like Auria faders for instance) So I think I'm keeping this one as it fits the setup like a glove, plus I was able to get it with that no interest Apple financing deal, if I return it and wait three months for the new one I'll need to come up with 1k cash which I don't have :(


Old 1st May 2018
  #4
If they ditch the headphone jack, it's still possible to route sound via USB/lightening, but no headphone out is going to make me sad.
Old 6th May 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

The headphone jack's been gone from iPhones for almost two years now, and for legacy connectivity they come with a dongle in the box (which Apple also sells for $8) for the Lightning port. (Also, 3rd parties also sell splitters so you can power your device while using headphones). Kind of a non-issue to me.

Because of the way we hold iPads you probably won't see a bezel reduction as radical as on the iPhone X. Lack of a home button is no impediment with the iPhone X - in fact, the two methods for app switching are together superior in real-world use, and FaceID works damn well, so I don't really miss TouchID.

Given the speed of current 5-core iPad Pros I'm pretty excited by rumored performance from new processors of the upcoming models; the main rumor from last year is that TSMC is fabbing 8-core A11x chips for new iPad Pros which will also use the M11 co-processor and NPU. The thing should scream.

Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference is in a month, and given that that's a year after the last announcements it would be logical for new models to be announced there.
Old 6th May 2018
  #6
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

I don't know what issues you're referring to, but with 200 million iPhones sold in the last 12 months alone (with around 10% of those being iPhone X), we'd have heard if there were serious problems with the tech. Last week Apple announced the iPhone X outsold all its other phones last quarter, despite the higher price.

For music-making, differences in processor speed and power between models is stagering over what you have in iPhone 5/6. The Multicore Geekbench 3 score for the iPhone 6 is 2319 (itself a 50% improvement over the iPhone 5), but the iPhone 8/8Plus/X score at 10,125 (with last year's 10.5" iPad Pro clocking in at 9,304). Even the new $329 iPad kills those old iPhones, with a score of 5,874.

iOS Benchmarks
- Geekbench Browser


PerformanceTest Mobile's Passmark benchmarks are similar:
  • iPhone X: 438,923
  • iPad Pro 10.5": 379,496
  • iPhone 6S: 92,801
  • iPhone 5: 23,849

And the A11X chips expected in the iPad Pros coming out this year, with smaller die sizes, more cores and faster processors, are expected to yield significant performance improvements over the machines currently being sold.

So, if you really fear buttcrackid continue to enjoy Apple's older, deprecated hardware, but don't be surprised if newer, more powerful mobile music software will come to require a more powerful computing platform than one made in 2013/2014.

Indeed, the iPhone 5 cannot even run iOS 11 - the last iOS version you can run is 10.3.3, which came out last summer.
Old 7th May 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Ah, the old '11.5 hours battery life sux and whattaboutstarvingafricans' argument.

And I see you deleted your original comment, which had nothing to do with anything mentioned in your last post. (hmm)
Old 7th May 2018
  #8
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

I think if you have a phone under warranty that only stays on for a half hour, Apple would replace it after looking at it. I'm not interested in continuing this ridiculous a discussion from someone whose arguments change (and disappear), sorry.
Old 8th May 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Well the great thing about these iPads is even as they become obsoleted by the newer ones I always find a use for the older ones. I now have six iPads from a 2nd gen up to the latest pro, but what I'm really hoping for is 8gb of ram. I may just skip this new one coming up and go for a 12" Macbook instead, these two here are getting a little long in the tooth lol









Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
I don't know what issues you're referring to, but with 200 million iPhones sold in the last 12 months alone (with around 10% of those being iPhone X), we'd have heard if there were serious problems with the tech. Last week Apple announced the iPhone X outsold all its other phones last quarter, despite the higher price.

For music-making, differences in processor speed and power between models is stagering over what you have in iPhone 5/6. The Multicore Geekbench 3 score for the iPhone 6 is 2319 (itself a 50% improvement over the iPhone 5), but the iPhone 8/8Plus/X score at 10,125 (with last year's 10.5" iPad Pro clocking in at 9,304). Even the new $329 iPad kills those old iPhones, with a score of 5,874.

iOS Benchmarks
- Geekbench Browser


PerformanceTest Mobile's Passmark benchmarks are similar:
  • iPhone X: 438,923
  • iPad Pro 10.5": 379,496
  • iPhone 6S: 92,801
  • iPhone 5: 23,849

And the A11X chips expected in the iPad Pros coming out this year, with smaller die sizes, more cores and faster processors, are expected to yield significant performance improvements over the machines currently being sold.

So, if you really fear buttcrackid continue to enjoy Apple's older, deprecated hardware, but don't be surprised if newer, more powerful mobile music software will come to require a more powerful computing platform than one made in 2013/2014.

Indeed, the iPhone 5 cannot even run iOS 11 - the last iOS version you can run is 10.3.3, which came out last summer.
Old 28th May 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
i love the iphone jack on my ipad pro because i can both charge it’s battery *AND* listen to music. anything else is sh!tty

i hate my iphone because it doesn’t have a headphone jack and my next phone will be one that does. it drives me crazy. “oh that tune you were talking about? yeah I have it right...well...is that a blue tooth speaker? No? ummm...headphones, yeah so nice cans but dink dink dink no 3.5mm jack..so I’ll play it on speaker and just imagine the bass that kicks in right here...”

most of the dongles that charge and do audio break pretty much instantly, so I’m done. yes I get I should be paying $400 to look like a dork with those unicorn penises in my ears but they are uncool, so not doing it apple bros...

/rant
Old 28th May 2018
  #11
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

I think this thread should move into the Moan Zone.

For the minority of people with millions of iPhones (or coming: iPads) since last year they've been able to charge and listen for free (with wireless headphones) or with one of several available dongles:
  • iPhone Lightning Dock
  • Belkin Lightning Audio + Charge RockStar (double Lightning ports)
  • Belkin 3.5mm Audio + Charge RockStar
Old 29th May 2018
  #12
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post

For the minority of people with millions of iPhones (or coming: iPads)
[/LIST]
Its still poor form that apple took a functional process and made it non functional. Ipads and iphones are inherently portable and these dongles arent built to travel. Extra stuff because...no reason? Its not even gold in apples pocket.

I have broken all dongles—typically the lightening connection goes first, so now i have to take a spare or else carrier termination/end of line baby! It sux0rs.
Old 29th May 2018
  #13
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
Its still poor form that apple took a functional process and made it non functional.
People wrongly moaned about Apple's moving forward when it
  • abandoned the floppy drive
  • abandoned the parallel port
  • abandoned the serial port
  • abandoned the ADB port
  • refused to make a phone with button keys
  • removed the DVD drive
  • killed iWeb
  • killed the hard disk iPod, and jog-wheel
  • killed the 30-pin connector
  • killed the OpenDoc software framework
  • moved on from FireWire

"Poor form" lol.

You can "both charge it’s battery *AND* listen to music" with an iPhone without a 3.5mm jack, either for free or (if you're in the small minority who want to remain connected by cable and charge simultaneously) with a $30ish dongle.

But if you prefer to abandon that ecosystem, and its UI and apps (and speed and better privacy, etc) because you don't like the idea that Apple is being Apple (and there's an argument in favor of each of those moves it's made above) when you have easily available workarounds, then go ahead. (shrug)
Old 29th May 2018
  #14
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
You can "both charge it’s battery *AND* listen to music" with an iPhone without a 3.5mm jack, either for free
How?

I dont think im in the small minority of people eho have been bit by bluetooth interference and have had that crap out. Or had ipad low on battery but no worries in eithet case, i can just charge while i 3.5mm my way into 2 track rca Return.

The dongles ive had for my iPhone have broken to the point where ive given up. Yes, thanks to this nonsense, i now get the joys of selecting my phone speaker over other speakers that are now miles away as i try to go on speaker phone.

Look, i get if apple wants to decide that it is unicorn penises or nothing...for my phone i can just live wothout. Im sure spotify is happy with my nonbusiness.

For the ipad, that is a damn shame because its nice to have an option that always ‘just works’ in a pinch. Im not saying take away unicorn peni options for those that want to lose them. For a ‘pro’ setup...its nice to have a steady standard—3.5mm.

Fwiw there is a ton more rca inputs in an ecosystem that will leave apple behind than the other obsolence factors you listed.
Old 30th May 2018
  #15
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
How?
Answered:

iPad Pro 2018 .. Your Thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
I dont think im in the small minority of people eho have been bit by bluetooth interference and have had that crap out. Or had ipad low on battery but no worries in eithet case, i can just charge while i 3.5mm my way into 2 track rca Return.
"Rather than buy a fairly cheap adapter, I am going to change platforms because of this one thing." OK. I've never understood single-issue voters, but they exist.

Please start a thread in the Moan Zone, please. You complain about charging and listening and I address it - free and paid, so you move the goalposts and change it to something else. I was clearly addressing a small minority of the 100+ million people now owning iPhone 8, iPhone 8 Plus and iPhone X for whom this is not an issue for headphone listening use, most especially with good Bluetooth headphones.

Please feel free to buy whatever you want whenever you want. But Apple sold 52.2 million iPhone 8/X units in the last quarter alone, the vast majority of people have adapted, and the headphone jack's disappearance is a foregone conclusion for future products.

Last edited by skira; 30th May 2018 at 01:41 AM..
Old 30th May 2018
  #16
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Answered:

"Rather than buy a fairly cheap adapter, I am going to change platforms because of this one thing." OK. I've never understood single-issue voters, but they exist.
brah...this is an audio forum.

The current Apple iPad Pro 10.x” is a thing of *beauty*. It is an instrument into itself...I can compose, I can record, I can stream hi-quality audio...it’s wonderful.

And, if in a pinch, I can 3.5mm to rca l/r, with a simple audio cable that can be found anywhere, at all hours of the day, and not have to choose between audio and power. did so last week.

Now..name a console that records 32 channels of blue tooth audio. You can’t. Bluetooth audio—does apple even support the hq bt audio protocol— is simply not a reliable way to record audio.

Beyond this...it’s not moaning. It’s informing the OP, *be careful*. In that list, Apple included other options. The optical drive went away, the apple store opened up, and if you needed the dongle, it *worked*. The disc ipod went away, streaming audio came in.

The 3.5mm went away...and no intelligent replacement? Some bull**** dongle? Why not embed the 3.5mm cord into the power unit? It’s a sign of apple’s times. 1998 isn’t that far away; I’m passing on the apple home speaker because of lock in; amazon is honey badger and don’t give a f. I’m ditching my apple tvs because the remote is **** and they aren’t fixing that. LG says here, crufty, have a aremote that’s a remote, a mic and a mouse pad. Sweet! And no xtra components, your tv will handle that for you. Those movies you never watch on itunes...will you really miss them? Microsoft says they can stream too...and my kids can play real video games on them.

Google is whispering ‘hey crufty...if all you do is let your kids play fortnite/minecraft, stream flac and watch the occasional kitten youtube on your phone...we’ve got 3.5mm jacks for yah and our commercials are also fancy.’

the ipadpro is the one device, that today, is basically nailed.

circling back to op, I’d get an ipad w/a 3.5mm jack over one w/out it.
Old 30th May 2018
  #17
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
brah...this is an audio forum.


Brah, you hijacked the thread to moan.
Old 30th May 2018
  #18
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

I’ve never not used dongles, be it VGA, DVI, FireWire, HDMI, Ethernet, USB sticks, etc. Apple has a long history of discarding legacy or soon-to-be legacy ports, and it always results in gnashing of teeth for a while then stops ... especially as other companies meekly follow Apple's lead, with few to no outcries.

Are there lots of people still moaning about the loss of DVI or MagSafe dongles, or the switch from 30-pin iPod/iPhone connectors? Nah, people adjust, and the products are better in the long run.

Yeah, this is Gearslutz, and there will always be people who complain that about a USB-MIDI dongle too, but... (shrug)
Old 31st May 2018
  #19
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

"Usually" based on what specific metrics?
Old 31st May 2018
  #20
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
"Usually" based on what specific metrics?
The name “Charge Rockstar” is pretty much all that needs to be said, no?

At some level, I agree...I’m less pained by the missing 3.5mm and more pained by the lack of viable alternative.

In all the other examples cited, a viable alternative was presented.

how many consoles record 2 tracks of bluetooth much less 32? NONE. How many audio interfaces record bluetooth audio? NONE. How many computers can record bluetooth audio? Never tried but I’m guessing close to NONE. Why not?

because nobody in their right mind would waste their time trying to record bluetooth audio in a digital 2 digital setup. why?
https://darko.audio/2017/12/how-to-e...r-iphone-ipad/

no hq bt on ios.

So...now that bluetooth is out...what’s Apple’s soln? Here’s a lame ass $8 dongle that is a joke. THat’s what I”m moaning about. The lame ass $8 joke dongle. Like...if there was an $8 option to add a 3.5mm jack to my phone, totally would have done it.

Now I move on up...ok, $50 dongles that have audio and power. Gee is this really better then the 3.5mm jack? No. It’s not. It’s $50, no name (belkin isn’t exactly known for audio). It’s not even a pair of $200 unicorn peni I can stick in my console’s RCA jacks. Or even better, mic-pres powered by 48V that my ipad can stream l/r to via io’s ****ty lq bluetooth (since now I’m in fantasy land).

No, I have no options. Even 2x2+midi is a rare beast for iOS now that I think of it. AND YES, I know, I could duet it up and all that...that’s a great option right? Sure, and realistically, in the studio, the ‘right’ way to go.

But for just checking some cool tracks or jamming out on ios synths...I shouldn’t be trapped between POS and $$$, and to what end? That’s the beef.
Old 31st May 2018
  #21
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
i hate my iphone because it doesn’t have a headphone jack and my next phone will be one that does.......Here’s a lame ass $8 dongle that is a joke. THat’s what I”m moaning about. The lame ass $8 joke dongle.
Yes, it does seem silly when you put it that way.
Old 2nd June 2018
  #22
Lives for gear
 
spaceman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
. But Apple sold 52.2 million iPhone 8/X units in the last quarter alone, the vast majority of people have adapted, and the headphone jack's disappearance is a foregone conclusion for future products.
Most have adapted because 95% never even used any other headphones than the earbuds included by Apple. Even in super noisy environments like subways and airplanes, 95% of people i see with iPhones, even the super-expensive iPhone X just use the freaking Apple earbuds. It’s only the minority of people who use third-party earbuds and better quality headphones who are annoyed by the possibility of losing the tiny dongle ( the comparison with Mac dongles isn’t good as they are usually fixed to their peripherals, or not carried everyday from one jacket/pants to another, so they’re less likely to be lost ).
The included Apple earbuds are the only heaphones many people will ever know in their lives, sad as it may be. The majority doesn’t care one bit about sound quality. They will buy $1000 + HD tvs and BluRays, but will be content with a 20$ earbud.

Apple probably did a study and concluded that the iPhone headphone jack has never been used for anything else than Apples own earbuds, so they may as well get rid of it and increase their massive margins.

Anyway, to be on topic, i think it’s very unlikely that Apple will remove the jack on iPads in the near future. Maybe in a few years, but not right now. IPads are often used as presentation devices, embeded interactive kiosks, etc... so it’s more likey that the audio jack is used to connect to external speakers, etcc..

Last edited by spaceman; 2nd June 2018 at 04:19 PM..
Old 2nd June 2018
  #23
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
MApple probably did a study and concluded that the iPhone headphone jack has never been used for anything else than Apples own earbuds, so they may as well get rid of it and increase their massive margins.
lol. Yeah, after decades of moving forward and dropping old ports in favor of what they believed to be better options (with the market following their lead), this time they merely saw gold in dropping a single use 100-yea-old analog port. Yeah, forget that people can still use their headphones with a free, included adapter (cost compared to 3.5mm jack is what, exactly?), forget that the clear future of audio is wireless and we already see the market moving to wireless headphones with increasing numbers of users are not even using the jack, and just call Dan Riccio at Apple a liar when he simply says, “It was holding us back from a number of things we wanted to put into the iPhone. It was fighting for space with camera technologies and processors and battery life. And frankly, when there’s a better, modern solution available, it’s crazy to keep it around.”

As Buzzfeed news noted almost two years ago:

Quote:
At the top of both devices is something called the “driver ledge” — a small printed circuit board that drives the iPhone’s display and its backlight. Historically, Apple placed it there to accommodate improvements in battery capacity, where it was out of the way. But according to Riccio, the driver ledge interfered with the iPhone 7 line’s new larger camera systems, so Apple moved the ledge lower in both devices. But there, it interfered with other components, particularly the audio jack.

So the company’s engineers tried removing the jack.

In doing so, they discovered a few things. First, it was easier to install the “Taptic Engine” that drives the iPhone 7’s new pressure-sensitive home button, which, like the trackpads on Apple’s latest MacBook, uses vibrating haptic sensations to simulate the feeling of a click — without actually clicking. (Did we mention that Apple killed the physical home button too?) Taptic Engine vibrations will also be used to deliver feeling specific notifications — hitting the end of a scrolled page, for example. And because Apple has given developers an API for it, an awful lot of other stuff as well — particularly in games.

“You can’t make it feel like there’s an earthquake happening, but the range of customization lets you do an awful lot,” Apple SVP Phil Schiller explains. “With every project there are things that surprise you with the meaning they take on as you start to use them. The Taptic Engine API is one of them. It turned into a much bigger thing than we ever thought it would be. It really does transform the experience for a lot of software. You’ll see.”

Second, there was an unforeseen opportunity to increase battery life. So the battery in the iPhone 7 is 14% bigger than the one in its predecessor, and in the iPhone 7 Plus, it’s 5% bigger. In terms of real-world performance gains, that’s about an additional two hours and one hour, respectively. Not bad.

Even better, removing the audio jack also eliminated a key point of ingress that Riccio says helped the new iPhone finally meet the IP67 water resistance spec Apple has been after for years (resistant when immersed under 1 meter of water for 30 minutes).
so yeah, let's ignore the advantages discussed, the changing of the market itself, and let's even forget that multiple Android phones followed Apple as well. Let's just decide that the decision was made (minus the cost of the free adapter cable) purely for motives of "massive profit."
Old 2nd June 2018
  #24
Lives for gear
 
spaceman's Avatar
 

If there’s anything to LOL at, it’s your naiveté. It’s actually kinda sweet. Apple has been removing more and more accessories recently , that they usually included. All these amount to HUGE savings when you sold so many units. I recently bought a new Macbook (the new tiny ones) , lovely little machine. When i opened the box, i kept looking for the extension cord. None. You get a short cable, and the same kind of adapter as the iPad ( with USB-C ). Extension power cord ? Optional.
Now, i’ve been using Apple products for nearly three decades ( yes i’m that old ), had powerbooks since the black and white one (with a trackball ! ), and extension power cord have always been included. Any «*advantage*» in not including one ? Did people suddenly decide overnight they didn’t need one because power outlets pop magically no further than a couple of centimeters when they see a Macbook approaching ? Is it in the name of a wireless power future ? It’s a saving, period.
The recent Apple Watches don’t even get a power supply anymore. I bet they won’t even include power units or cables or heaphones anymore with iPhones or iPads in the future. It’s all going to be optional, while the devices themselves will be priced the same.

Keep dreaming about your All Wireless Audio. Not going to happen anytime soon before a decade. And longer in the pro-audio world.

Quote:
and just call Dan Riccio at Apple a liar when he simply says
Oh, no ! I wouldnt even dare imagine that someone working for one of the most controlled and secret companies in the world would say anything else than what has been vetoed by the marketing and PR department ! ( not saying that’s bad. All big companies try to control their public communication as much as they can. Understandable )

Like I said, such naïveté is kinda sweet.

That said, I’m not going to switch anytime soon to MS ( they’re getting better but i still prefer MacOS by far, and their phone division is now dead ) or Google ( one of the scariest and most unethical companies in the world ).

Last edited by spaceman; 2nd June 2018 at 05:32 PM..
Old 2nd June 2018
  #25
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Enjoy your fact-free tinfoil hat conspiracy theories!
Old 3rd June 2018
  #26
Lives for gear
 
crufty's Avatar
Why would the ipad pro have the same design challenges as the iphone?

For the iphone, why isnt there a 3.5mm jack on the battery pack case?

Little things
Old 3rd June 2018
  #27
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Add to the price of a battery case for something people don't need (since they have a free dongle)? Gee, I have no idea....
Old 3rd June 2018
  #28
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

Are you by any chance out of arguments?
Old 3rd June 2018
  #29
Lives for gear
WHO CARES

Try writing some music in your head, then singing the idea into a tape recorder

Don't need some crappy app to do for me, what I have the ability to do with nothing

Pasting together pre-fab music from loop packs and apps is to writing music what doing a jigsaw puzzle of a Picasso is to painting.
Old 4th June 2018
  #30
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 

It's a "I reported your posts for irrelevant obtrusiveness." Now, unless you're going to delete those posts (like you did two earlier ones in this thread, apparently out of embarrassment), please just keep to the topic.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump