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why not go after pirates? Channel Strip Plugins
Old 19th May 2009
  #1
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

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why not go after pirates?

why not go after pirated software user and prosecute to the extent of the law?
Old 19th May 2009
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60 View Post
why not go after pirated software user and prosecute to the extent of the law?
IMSTAs charter is as an educational organization...the RIAA's approach has not done record sales any good, and the same goes for software..
There are organizations that do go after violators. It is not what we do. We are more interested in being the Carrot then the stick
Old 19th May 2009
  #3
Gear Head
 

Thanks!

As Michael has said above, IMSTA faces the software piracy problem from an educational angle. Therefore, we can never get involved in enforcement.

Paul
Old 19th May 2009
  #4
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I think the total cost of prosecution of a single person is simply not worth it - it takes months and months, scary bills form lawyers, bad publicity, going to court only to find out that this person has no money to pay all the costs.

Prosecution of a company would end up the same.

Dry up the source (by making it more difficult for people to get their hands on the official disks) would be more effective. As stated in my other post, I think 80 percent of the software is copied by employees of the company that bought the software.
Old 20th May 2009
  #5
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[QUOTE=mxeryus;4201898]I think the total cost of prosecution of a single person is simply not worth it - it takes months and months, scary bills form lawyers, bad publicity, going to court only to find out that this person has no money to pay all the costs. Prosecution of a company would end up the same.



I totally agree....

Education is the long-term solution.

Paul
Old 20th May 2009
  #6
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[QUOTE=IMSTA;4204839]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxeryus View Post
I think the total cost of prosecution of a single person is simply not worth it - it takes months and months, scary bills form lawyers, bad publicity, going to court only to find out that this person has no money to pay all the costs.
I hate the idea of taking money from people who can't afford to pay, so I'll tell you who can:

The ISP's!

You can educate these people till the cows come home, but you'll never see a cent -- or you can sue them for selling stolen music, software and movies.
Old 21st May 2009
  #7
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[QUOTE=author;4205337]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMSTA View Post
I hate the idea of taking money from people who can't afford to pay, so I'll tell you who can:

The ISP's!

You can educate these people till the cows come home, but you'll never see a cent -- or you can sue them for selling stolen music, software and movies.
Going after the ISP is tough as they would have to be able to monitor customer traffic. Monitoring a web site for content is one thing. Sniffing customer network traffic for illegal downloading, especially peer to peer, is another thing entirely and would be both expensive and represent an invasion of privacy.

I agree that education is key. As long as there is a demand there will be a supply. The key, as with other 'wars' against illegal activity, is to attack the demand side of the transaction.
Old 21st May 2009
  #8
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[QUOTE=denismcd;4207219]
Quote:
Originally Posted by author View Post

I agree that education is key. As long as there is a demand there will be a supply. The key, as with other 'wars' against illegal activity, is to attack the demand side of the transaction.

You got it. We have to reduce the demand for pirated material. When there is less demand, there will be a reduction in the supply as well. It is just the natural laws of supply and demand.

Paul
Old 21st May 2009
  #9
MMI
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[QUOTE=author;4205337]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMSTA View Post
You can educate these people till the cows come home, but you'll never see a cent -- or you can sue them for selling stolen music, software and movies.
You know at one time the people who campaigned to end Slavery in the Americas were thought of as idealistic dreamers. People said that Slavery was an economic necessity and that paying everyone to work would destroy economies. They also cited the historical fact that Slavery was with us since before Jesus time. They argued that setting out on a mission to abolish Slavery was akin to going against human nature and doomed to miserable failure.

We reversed thousands of years of human behavior didn't we? You really don't think that we can reverse 10 years of human behavior? Do you really think that our fellow humans can't get to the point where you and I are at? I buy all my software and I believe I am not morally superior to anyone. I believe that other people could do the same if they really think about it. So we educate and we wage our war against ignorance. Join us and we will get there a bit quicker.
Old 21st May 2009
  #10
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aeonsound's Avatar
 

because they have muskets, cutlasses and whatnot?
Old 21st May 2009
  #11
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pashatom's Avatar
 

sinking sands of being cheated

When someone always gets things for free, they are unable to place or to feel a value of that thing. It becomes worthless and that person eventually feels cheated - by themselves or whoever sold them the idea of getting it for free. They also lose their moral ground which is even worse.

A person with no ethics is like a ship with no rudder, it goes round in circles and has no direction.

Conversely, when what we desired or even needed cost us, we feel it is worth something. That in turn changes our attitude towards working with it. we study it, check-it-out, learn and generally become determined to get the maximum out of it. That in turn makes vast improvements on our music and gives us not only a direction and a feeling that we are going somewhere, but a feeling that we have some moral ground to stand on instead of sinking sand.
Old 21st May 2009
  #12
Gear Head
 

i buy all of my software as well. no crack allowed on my computer
BUT, let us also go after software companies that make/sell................................. BUGGY UNSTABLE SOFTWARE
software that is advertised to do something and when installed clearly doesn't work correctly
Old 22nd May 2009
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IMSTA View Post

I totally agree....

Education is the long-term solution.

Paul
If education is key as you said, wouldn't it make sense to educate young comers to the industry, that are still in school and give them sensible academic discounts and encourage them to purchase legit products at an early stage in their careers?

There are only a handful of companies out there that offer academic discounts and I applaud them, most offer nothing, why not make academic discounts mandatory.

Us pros we don't need the academic discounts if we really need a specific software we buy it because it is an investment for our livelihood and will pay itself back in due course. But for students not the same can be said so they use pirate software instead.
I don't know just makes sense to me to encourage legal buying of software.
Old 22nd May 2009
  #14
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While I certainly wouldn't want to discourage the education route as it is indeed helpful, I don't see it as a solution. Just like educating people on stealing physical property is not a solution to theft.

If people have a choice between free and paying and there is no consequence, then no amount of education is going to stop most people from going with the free route. Sure the education may make them feel more guilty about what they are doing, but their personal needs and the lack of any consequences will override that.

Why is it that kids don't go around stealing CDs from music stores or software stores at the rate they do digital online music/software? What are the consequences faced when they do it in a store? They go to jail. What are the consequences when they steal via online? Nothing.

I think the cause of the problem is really pretty simple. The solution, not so much.
Old 22nd May 2009
  #15
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
While I certainly wouldn't want to discourage the education route as it is indeed helpful, I don't see it as a solution. Just like educating people on stealing physical property is not a solution to theft.

If people have a choice between free and paying and there is no consequence, then no amount of education is going to stop most people from going with the free route. Sure the education may make them feel more guilty about what they are doing, but their personal needs and the lack of any consequences will override that.

Why is it that kids don't go around stealing CDs from music stores or software stores at the rate they do digital online music/software? What are the consequences faced when they do it in a store? They go to jail. What are the consequences when they steal via online? Nothing.

I think the cause of the problem is really pretty simple. The solution, not so much.
until their is some degree of ethics, morality, and respect, once again being taught ( and enforced, consequences for actions ), then thievery will continue to run rapid: (~
education is key, but so is the notion of consequences for actions.

its okay, everyone dose it!
Old 23rd May 2009
  #16
Gear Head
 

[QUOTE=Barbary Ape;4209941]If education is key as you said, wouldn't it make sense to educate young comers to the industry, that are still in school .......


Yes, it does. In 2008 IMSTA started the educational institutions membership program and now has several institutions onboard. They help us by spreading our message to their students. We welcome schools from all around the world join IMSTA.

Universities, colleges, private colleges, vocational schools, music schools...

It will not cost them anything.

Also, IMSTA currently has branches in Canada, France, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, United Kingdom, and United States. Anyone interested in helping in her/his country can contact the IMSTA Ambassador in that country. You can find them on the IMSTA web site www.imsta.org .

Should anyone want to help in another country, they can contact any of the ambassadors too; or they can contact the International head office in Toronto, Canada. Remember, we do not need enforcers. We need educators...

Paul
Old 24th May 2009
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiiMCorp View Post
IMSTAs charter is as an educational organization...the RIAA's approach has not done record sales any good, and the same goes for software..
There are organizations that do go after violators. It is not what we do. We are more interested in being the Carrot then the stick
Can't we just lure the pirates with carrots... get them all in one spot.. then beat them with the sticks?
I applaud IMSTA (though admittedly this is the first i've heard of them). I agree with the education portion of the puzzle... but i believe it's just part of the picture. If we are to just rely on people's good will...well...you have more faith in humanity than i.
Old 25th May 2009
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I applaud IMSTA (though admittedly this is the first i've heard of them). I agree with the education portion of the puzzle... but i believe it's just part of the picture. If we are to just rely on people's good will...well...you have more faith in humanity than i.

Thank you for the kind words.

Absolutely! We believe that the majority of the musicians are good people and that they can be educated to do the right thing. Not everyone will change his/her behavior; however, we believe that in time, the majority will. Some won’t and we can’t dismiss our efforts on their account. We just have to keep going.

Paul
Old 26th May 2009
  #19
MMI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
While I certainly wouldn't want to discourage the education route as it is indeed helpful, I don't see it as a solution. Just like educating people on stealing physical property is not a solution to theft.
This is completely false. The vast majority of people in the world do not steal. And the vast majority of the ones who steal feel bad about it. This "thou shalt not steal" education has been drilled into us since we were toddlers.
Old 27th May 2009
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMI View Post
This is completely false. The vast majority of people in the world do not steal. And the vast majority of the ones who steal feel bad about it. This "thou shalt not steal" education has been drilled into us since we were toddlers.
I agree, and I don't claim that they are all bad people who steal. But even the noblest of people when presented with such easy temptations and presented with no consequences will steal. It's about self benefit vs consequences.

If one knows that there is no way anyone can tell if they have stolen, no way for anyone to catch them, no way for the victim to even know if they are being stolen from, and there is no immediate victim caused by that one person, but rather a large collective, they will do so. And I think the plugin theft from a few years ago before the iLok pretty much demonstrates that.

For physical theft, it's not simply education that has drilled that bible quote into us, it's the enforcement of the law that has. Most kids steal. And they get caught which then teaches them the consequences of stealing. Usually this happens with something minor like a piece of candy. No one has the opportunity to learn this lesson because there is no enforcement of right and wrong and no consequences like with physical property.

A large majority is stealing right now. Do you think that they are all oblivious to the fact that they are stealing and that stealing is wrong?
Old 27th May 2009
  #21
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
I DO NOT, NOR WILL I STEAL!
i can not imagine a situation in which i would.
Old 27th May 2009
  #22
MMI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
I agree, and I don't claim that they are all bad people who steal. But even the noblest of people when presented with such easy temptations and presented with no consequences will steal. It's about self benefit vs consequences.
It is about self-benefit and consequences. There are software companies that have disappeared with their ideas depriving you and I of new tools for applying our creativity. That is why I buy software. I want the company to continue to exist so that I can benefit from the next upgrade.

Most people do not steal because they don't want to. Enforcement is a deterrent, but many police departments do not investigate most burglaries anymore. This is irrelevant for most people though who simply do not want to take property from other people. We are not savages motivated only by fear and greed.

There are no fines for not recycling your garbage yet most informed people do it. There are still some who don't care. But many do it because they want to do it and they feel good about doing it. They beleive that there is self-interest in preserving the environment. So the point I'm trying to make is that we are trying to educate people about the piracy behavior and its consequences [to them] in the hope that some will opt to do the right thing. There is quite a bit of historical evidence of people changing after being educated.
Old 27th May 2009
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
A large majority is stealing right now. Do you think that they are all oblivious to the fact that they are stealing and that stealing is wrong?
The people I've talked to are certainly not unaware that people such as yourself consider it stealing. Make no mistake about it, this is a matter of world views clashing. They don't consider it stealing, yet they no other people do.

Also I think it's worth noting (and this is not directly aimed at you collinmiller) that all the pirates are definitely not "kids" as I often think is implied in the discussion. I hear people older than me downloading illegally all the time. Lets not narrow this down to kids... Which begs the question: can you teach an old dog to sit?
Old 27th May 2009
  #24
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Ray

If we had no law enforcement for shop lifting and only relied on education, do you think that would protect stores from theft?

Yes we know that if we shop lift, stores will have to raise prices to stay in business and we all lose. So if we just put that message out there without any enforcement, will that protect business?


There's definitely a need for education, but without consequences it's still going to be a problem. When it comes to music, kids don't realize that what they are doing is a collective damage because they are only thinking about themselves and the damage they are doing as a single person is not great, it's the collective damage of millions of people. That's something where education will really have a huge impact on for example. But that alone won't stop many. They already know it's wrong, they just don't understand the bigger picture. All they know, in terms of music is that big corporations who appear to have lots of money are trying to sue little people with no money. And of course the software business is a little different, but that example in music is a little easier to demonstrate.

My point being that both are needed to be effective. I think intellectual property deserves the same protection as physical property. Much of our country's economy is going to be based on intellectual property now. And if we don't protect it, our entire economy is going to suffer. We enforce the laws on stealing because if we didn't, stealing would be rampant and it wouldn't just effect the retail stores, it would effect all of us and our entire economy. But it seems we as a country have not realized just how much of our economy is based on intellectual property. And maybe that's something EVERYONE needs to be educated on.
Old 27th May 2009
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
Ray

If we had no law enforcement for shop lifting and only relied on education, do you think that would protect stores from theft?

Yes we know that if we shop lift, stores will have to raise prices to stay in business and we all lose. So if we just put that message out there without any enforcement, will that protect business?



This statement assumes that everyone who uses cracked software is a thief at heart.

This is not true!

IMSTA assumes that most musicians are not thieves and that they would not steal or shop lift, even if they have the chance to do so without getting caught.

They just have to understand that stealing intellectual property is still stealing and that it is just as bad as stealing physical goods - no matter how they try to convince themselves otherwise.

Some excuses: I can’t afford it, it is not a physical product, I did not have tech support at 2:00 AM, etc…

On the other hand, shop lifters are exactly that, shop lifters. We have all these great laws that people speak of; however, they have not eliminated shop lifting or any other type of crime.

A thief will be a thief regardless of education and/or law enforcement. Of course, some musicians are also thieves. This groups of thieves who also happen to be musicians, are NOT IMSTA’s target audience.

Our education is meant for those good musicians who are not thieves at heart and would not steal anything else, other than their software. We have to make sure they realize it is just as wrong.

Anyone wishing to enforce the issue can do so. However, they will have to do it without IMSTA.

Paul
Old 28th May 2009
  #26
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I don't think my statement assumes that people who steal are thieves at heart, I think it just assumes that theft happens. Some people might steal from retail because they are desperate and starving, or in dire need to feed their baby and can't find any other resort. There are an unlimited number of reasons, but I don't think that's really the issue so much. If someone has needs that outweigh the consequences, they will do it whether they know its wrong or not. And maybe sometimes that need can actually be justified over the consequences. If someone threatened to murder a persons loved on if they didn't steal something for example. The stealing would still be wrong, but their motivation would warrant it.

I think the implication here being made is that all people who steal from retail are hardened thieves and therefore comparing the two is saying that people who steal software are all hardened thieves. But I don't believe that all people who steal from retail are.
Old 28th May 2009
  #27
Gear Head
 

I hear what you are saying!

Under the common law system, if someone steals something out of necessity, he/she can use that as a defense in court and actually win the case.

However, there is nothing that would make it a necessity to steal music software.

We believe that once our message gets through to enough musicians, most will make the right choice and buy the software they use.

As I have said before, we can’t change everyone’s behavior. But we can’t stop our efforts on their account either. We will just have to educate those who are willing to listen.
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