The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Only genuine/legal/official software
Old 18th May 2009
  #1
Gear Addict
 
mxeryus's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Only genuine/legal/official software

Would it be an option to start a campaign so studios can advertise with support for the software industry - kinda "We use only genuine/legal/official software" for a small annual fee, supported by your companies and an annual audit?
Old 18th May 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxeryus View Post
Would it be an option to start a campaign so studios can advertise with support for the software industry - kinda "We use only genuine/legal/official software" for a small annual fee, supported by your companies and an annual audit?

I think its a great idea.... how would you police that? Everyone would just join no matter what they were doing.

I for one am so tired of having to compete against people that steal everything and promote what great rigs they have ad infinitum.

And we're not just talking software......
Old 18th May 2009
  #3
MMI
Special guest
 

Piracy Free Zones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffmo View Post
I think its a great idea.... how would you police that? Everyone would just join no matter what they were doing.

I for one am so tired of having to compete against people that steal everything and promote what great rigs they have ad infinitum.

And we're not just talking software......
The precursor of IMSTA was a group called be-cool.org which had a page called "Piracy Free Zones." We can bring this back as I liked the idea a lot. As for policing that piracy-free list, that would be difficult. It was based on the honor system and some people are more honorable than others.

Ray Williams
Music Marketing Inc.
Old 18th May 2009
  #4
Personally I don't agree with paying to sign up for a service which certifies that I've paid for all my software in the first place. Surely that's just yet another penalty to honest users.

I do like the idea though, if it could be implemented in a way which wasn't subject to abuse.
Old 18th May 2009
  #5
Gear Addict
 
mxeryus's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Every business needs an accountant and will have to make sure that no illegal software is installed. An annual report/document would do.
Offenders should be banned for .... Three years? End up on a blacklist? Banned for life? Crucified during the bi-annual GS diner at the AES?

I think it would be a great plus for respected studios (tired fighting against so-called-low-budget-fly-by-night-studios-with-cracked software) to declare they guarantee they only run legitimate software.

Just my 2 cents....
Old 18th May 2009
  #6
Special guest
 

It would be great to get a sense of how many people that would make difference to.....Like " Buying Organic"
Old 19th May 2009
  #7
Special guest
 

This is a more common issue than you think. How do I know something I am purchasing on Ebay is not stolen?? and I am not referring to software necessarily. Unless someone creates DMV like authority and paperwork (vehicle registration for those of you outside the US), it is very hard to handle.

I am all for software verification and validation. Technically it would not be hard for PACE to build a tool that could authenticate all software on a system. The hitch is we could only do so for PACE protected software. No system is 100% in this area. However, giving kudos to paying customers and legitimate studios is probably worth some investigation. I will put this on my list of things to discuss with our customers.
Old 19th May 2009
  #8
Lives for gear
 
JoeyM's Avatar
Devil's Advocate here:

Right up front, is this a marketing gimmick so those on the list get bombarded by ads through email and snailmail? Constant ads are already a distraction without being on the list.

Then there's privacy: what are your credentials that we trust you?
Your proposal kind of states if we sign up then we are officially trusted. Cool.

But like i'm getting at, is there an institution bigger than you that can verify YOU're cool too?

Unless the answers hypnotize/stupify me with brilliance and perks, no, I'd rather be suspect
Old 19th May 2009
  #9
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
As many other schemes this is impossible to implement technically: "Hey guys we are having the annual audit next week, put the clean harddisk in the DAW..."

Even less so on a human level: The people less likely follow moral rules can just as easily abuse this system as they can abuse software.

Alistair
Old 19th May 2009
  #10
Gear Head
 

But like i'm getting at, is there an institution bigger than you that can verify YOU're cool too?



IMSTA currently has 131 member companies from all around the world.

I believe this fact makes us big enough to know what is COOL.

We have established that piracy is NOT…

Paul
Old 19th May 2009
  #11
Gear Addict
 
mxeryus's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Software is -like hardware- an asset. I think the majority of studios (project-, mxing-, tracking- and mastering-) are run as a business, so asset management should already be in place. For hardware without a serial, you can not get free repairs; for software without a license, you can not get free support - and your insurance company would require a detailed list of all your assets anyway.

A company is proud to have vintage SSL/Neve/Fairchild etc. stuff - so why would a company not be proud to only use official licenses and support further research and development? For a small fee you should het an official license registration (at IMSTA for example) and in return you would be authorized to use a small logo on your website, ads and so on. Your accountant (well, you do fill in your IRS/VAT/tax forms, don't you?) should be able to give a statement that you only use official software. This statement (a sample form should be provided by the IMSTA or other counterparts) should be sent to the organization. A revoked license should be published and is extremely bad (publicity) for business - once your name is on the Internet, it will be there for a very, very long time.

I don't know if there has been any research on the source of pirated software, but in my experience about 80 percent of software is illegally copied by employees who did not pay for the software themselves (as it was bought by their employer). In my small company (less than 10 people), the use of unauthorized software is prohibited. All software is in a safe, so nobody can make a copy for any use without me knowing it. A second copied set is in another safe in another location (for backup/disaster recovery). So I have cut down the source and all my people know how I think about piracy - some employees would have a very bad day if they found out that their masterpiece is illegally copied and distributed and they would not receive any royalties for it.

All this was triggered by a nice warning in German public transport - not telling you that you have to pay for a ticket, but that your fellow passengers also paid for their ticket and so should you. Same message, but brought in a positive way - and c'est la ton que fait la musique!

Last edited by mxeryus; 20th May 2009 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: Rephrasing and erasing unneeded line
Old 20th May 2009
  #12
Lives for gear
 
JoeyM's Avatar
Well I don't want my information shared with 131 companies, and no that isn't a good enough answer.

Thanks but no thanks
Old 20th May 2009
  #13
Gear Head
 

[QUOTE=JoeyM;4202544]Well I don't want my information shared with 131 companies, and no that isn't a good enough answer.



This forum is organized by Gearslutz.com and not IMSTA. All panelists are special guests in this forum and have no access to your personal information (other than what you provide). Frankly, we don’t need anyone’s personal information. This is a forum to open the lines of communication between you (the music software users) and the music software industry. Let’s make it a productive forum.

Paul
Old 20th May 2009
  #14
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxeryus View Post
Your accountant (well, you do fill in your IRS/VAT/tax forms, don't you?) should be able to give a statement that you only use official software.
Yes I fill in my IRS/VAT/etc forms and it is the single thing I most hate in business (maybe even life). I don't want more administration just to prove I am honest.

Anyway, the accountant still has no way of knowing that a person doesn't have more software installed than what they paid for. (And I am not talking about freeware). I see no cheap (read cost effective) way of checking whether someone is or isn't using illegal copies of software.

Quote:
I don't know if there has been any research on the source of pirated software, but in my experience about 80 percent of software is illegally copied by employees who did not pay for the software themselves (as it was bought by their employer).
Is that the case with audio software? (Is that even still true for other types of software?) It certainly can't be true of anything involving a dongle as it needs to be cracked to work without the dongle. The same goes for any copy protection using a system ID or anything else based on the hardware in the DAW.

Doing (legitimate) searches for products on Google returns many dubious pages. I am guessing the vast majority of illegal copies come from the internet and only a tiny percentage from the employees work place.

For the rest of your post, it seems like preaching to the choir. Honest businesses will agree but they have nothing to prove. Dishonest businesses probably couldn't care less.

I don't want to sound so negative but any solution to this problem needs to be relatively water tight or it is a waste of time and a distraction from other potential solutions to he illegal software problem.

Alistair
Old 21st May 2009
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Anyway, the accountant still has no way of knowing that a person doesn't have more software installed than what they paid for. (And I am not talking about freeware). I see no cheap (read cost effective) way of checking whether someone is or isn't using illegal copies of software....

Alistair
How about this? heh

Spider Robot by Stephen Spielberg from Minority Report (Movie)

Science fiction can often become science fact.

IMHO, it comes down to the old civil liberties issue augments -

What have you got to hide? VS Right to privacy.

Does a right to privacy = a right to break the law?

But you could chase your own tail on that forever..

The 'nothing to hide' DAW could maintain frequent connection to software companies via the net to recieve fee updates and bonus software as long as the companies can 'spider' the computer and ascertain that no pirated software exists on it.

Who here would go for that? What would have to be on offer to persuade you to sign up for something like that?
Old 21st May 2009
  #16
Gear Head
 
denismcd's Avatar
 

The problem with that is that a client-side software would be required on the DAW that could cause performance issues and\or represent a violation of privacy. No person should have to prove that they are legitimate -- the burden should be on the accuser should have to prove that they are breaking the law.

A desire for privacy does not mean that somebody has something to hide and should not automatically cause suspicion.

I have a question...if music is produced using anauthorized software (e.g. plugins, daw, soft synths) and it can be proven, would the software manufacturer have a legitimate claim to royalties or other compensation based upon the success of the production? To anyone's knowledge, has this ever been tested?

I work in the software industry in real life (feeds my gear habit) and I find this an interesting subject.
Old 21st May 2009
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by denismcd View Post
I have a question...if music is produced using anauthorized software (e.g. plugins, daw, soft synths) and it can be proven, would the software manufacturer have a legitimate claim to royalties or other compensation based upon the success of the production? To anyone's knowledge, has this ever been tested?

I work in the software industry in real life (feeds my gear habit) and I find this an interesting subject.
Score one big royalty recovery case and you could retire to the dream studio?

Can you imagine the recording studio world all turned into snitches for reward money?

The paranoia would be unbearable!
Old 21st May 2009
  #18
Gear Head
 
denismcd's Avatar
 

Nah...I don't write audio software. Just boring SQL databases.
Old 21st May 2009
  #19
You could demand a finders fee!

Old 22nd May 2009
  #20
Gear Addict
 
mxeryus's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Does your company have a statement about sexual harassment? Or about killing employees? About stealing equipment? Why not - these are crimes as well. A simple statement, signed by your accountant or lawyer, would do the trick.

Installation of auditing software would cause too much trouble - your statement and support for (the companies that joined) IMSTA should be enough to give you the opportunity to be proud of your assets - and to use the logo.

And sometimes I just don't get it - we are prepared to pay thousands for a new or even vintage piece, but a much smaller investment in software (that we will use daily) is difficult.
Old 22nd May 2009
  #21
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Technically it would not be hard for PACE to build a tool that could authenticate all software on a system. The hitch is we could only do so for PACE protected software. No system is 100% in this area.
So in your ideal world all audio software would/should be PACE protected...? 100% market share.. can't fault you on ambition heh

How would you feel about an open platform for ensuring software integrity? I think it'd be pretty easy for all plug-ins and the popular DAWs going forward -- public/private keys, code signing, certificates, IMSTA as certificate authority etc.
Old 23rd May 2009
  #22
Special guest
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus_FX View Post
So in your ideal world all audio software would/should be PACE protected...? 100% market share.. can't fault you on ambition heh

How would you feel about an open platform for ensuring software integrity? I think it'd be pretty easy for all plug-ins and the popular DAWs going forward -- public/private keys, code signing, certificates, IMSTA as certificate authority etc.
I think that we offer a great solution. 10 years ago people had multiple dongles for each vendor and for each product. Now the iLok provides a unified platform. Doesn't that make sense.

I was simply mentioned that we could create such a validation tool now for all PACE customers. I am not sure if that is enough. It would not be hard for us to create easy to use tools that would do this for other software publisher, even if they don't use our copy protection tools for activation. I would be more than happy to discuss. The real issue is if the users would use this and if we could find some consensus from the vendors and perhaps some certification method that would work. We have all the technology to do this now.
Old 23rd May 2009
  #23
Lives for gear
 
7161's Avatar
 

i got a point to make - this is one thing that gets on my nerves!! and could be a reason why so many people use a bootleg - lets call it the 'protest vote'



back in the mid 90's a decent fast pc might cost 1000 GBP

and the s/w host sequencer priced at mebbe 300, 400 or 500 would seem relatively balanced compared to the hardware price - the s/w (just a disk or some disks) would be cheaper than the h/w which made sense

also way fewer people had computers back then... hardly anyone had a computer... now it is almost mandatory to own one


so is it possible that some s/w is now overpriced?





previously with such a small user base of potential pc owners, higher end s/w was priced perhaps to reflect the few sales that could be achieved. it was s/w for the few and thus the price reflected the meagre unit sales any company could garner annualy

but now with such high pc ownership and with pc prices having plumetted, and with everyone and their dog now making music, could it be that the pricier s/w's are now overpriced?

if the s/w costs the same or more than the actual hardware pc itself, isn't that wrong?



for example, wouldn't Cubase really be best priced at the edu price? like not 450 GBP but instead 220 gbp

personaly i find it insulting that a bunch of half assed layabout students get a discount... and for what? cos they are frikking students??!!

WE pay for these bloody students to study with OUR taxes, then WE are told

"F*ck you! pay double!"

well thats an insult frankly!! - if steinberg and whoever else can offer 'edu' to students then why the hell cant they price it the same for everyone?

it's a massive difference of DOUBLE! which shows steinberg etc can sell at that price and survive ok. so why double the price for regular people?

99% of these students do NOT go on to do anything job-wise with the s/w they get cheap.


it peeves me... exactly the same as it peeves me to see my bank giving away free things to 'students' when customers who've been loyal for 20 years like me get sweet fanny adams except more bank charges


rrrrrrrr


any comment on that from s/w makers? why the hell can some grotty student buy cheap and not me?
Old 23rd May 2009
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PACE Andrew Kirk View Post
I think that we offer a great solution. 10 years ago people had multiple dongles for each vendor and for each product. Now the iLok provides a unified platform. Doesn't that make sense.
I think the iLok is the best product protection solution out there (FWIW, I hated your earlier passcode software - don't know if any current products still use that, or if it's just a legacy thing at this point). The iLok works for the vendor, and it's fair to the user in the sense that it's the only existing practical way (that I'm aware of, anyway) to be able to make the apps you've purchased "portable" between one facility & another, and it allows easy license transfer, in most cases.

If I may make a product improvement suggestion, though... you might consider making a smaller version of it - a lot of computers ports' are close enough together to where it's difficult to insert another device next to the iLok, considering it has those bulges on each side. I know it's am easily-recognizeable trademarked look & all that, but if you offered a version that was the same width as a regular thumb drive, I'll bet a lot of people would prefer that.
Old 23rd May 2009
  #25
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mxeryus View Post
Would it be an option to start a campaign so studios can advertise with support for the software industry - kinda "We use only genuine/legal/official software" for a small annual fee, supported by your companies and an annual audit?
Interesting idea, I don't see why there has to be a fee, I'm sure it could be paid by a voluntary payment from software manufacturers if it makes more people by their products, maybe also a percentage from damages collected due to the initiative.

all you need to do to police it is have the joining contract state that a representative may do a random check of a studios DAW's for pirated software at any time (within reason). If you have no pirated software there is nothing to worry about, if you do have pirated software you wouldn't sign something that allows a representative of the companies you are pirating from have access to your DAW

narco
Old 23rd May 2009
  #26
Gear Head
 
digital lofi's Avatar
 

I really believe that something along these lines is the best bet for really doing something about pro-level piracy: an non-proprietary, opt-in system that actually has a benefit to the user.

We all know, according to those little boxes we blithely click through, we're not "buying" software, right? We're licensing it, no? And isn't one benefit of licensing software a level of support that goes beyond just updating the code? Almost any other sector of the specialized software industry that I've encountered the idea of support is more than just public user forums. Getting a management software package for your pub? A support tech comes down, sets it up, trains your staff, and answers the phone when you call with a problem. I have a friend that just got an online package for his business that is primarily built on supporting their applications.

I understand that we're talking about mostly consumer software and there's a pretty vast difference. Whether anything can substantially be done about warez kiddies is, as I see it, a different kettle of fish. Those are just abstract numbers that are open to a lot of interpretation. But there is a real problem with mid-level and above commercial studios that *rely* on stolen software. And there's got to be a better way of making that work.

Automated systems aren't going to cut, for some of the reasons discussed above. DRM is planned obsolescence. If there's a system, someone, somewhere will figure out how to game it. How about giving customers a reason to support a company? Concentrating on those users who actually depend on your product, bringing more of them on board? As near as I can tell, you can't enforce loyalty.
Old 25th May 2009
  #27
Registered User
 

FWIW microsoft has msdn and technet where you subscribe and you get x number of licenses to use of their software in your company (albeit for training purposes). maybe you could set it (the genuine software label) to where company x subscribes for $100 a year but they get a discount on software licenses. and for every year they're registered the discount increases by x%


for example the first year gets you 5% off all products
and then the 2nd year gets 7%
3rd 9%
so on and so forth.
Old 30th May 2009
  #28
Gear Addict
 
mxeryus's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Mmm.... without a fee then?
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
nandi / So much gear, so little time!
26
babel2 / Geekslutz forum
0
Meriphew / The Good News Channel
1
RussianRecording / So much gear, so little time!
2
I play in a ban / Low End Theory
21

Forum Jump