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Old 2 weeks ago
  #361
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Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Gotta give Dungy his due.

ESPN had him at 20 all time.
Which IMO is meaningless. Even if ESPN wasn't Circus Clown HQ (and it is), there's undoubtedly politics/etc etc going on there. With Peyton Manning and that O, hell Richie Kotite would've probably won at least one SB ring. Look after Dungy left they got right back in the SB with - I can't even remember his name but they lost to the Saints - and he was a joke. I give Dungy credit for turning around the Bucs but he didn't do anything much with the Colts, just rode the gravy train and with a team like that which gets in the playoffs every year all those years, you're bound to win at least one. Again he was good I'm not saying otherwise, but one of the best ever? Nah.

Onto more important things: draft 2 weeks from Thurs
Old 2 weeks ago
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
Which IMO is meaningless. Even if ESPN wasn't Circus Clown HQ (and it is), there's undoubtedly politics/etc etc going on there. With Peyton Manning and that O, hell Richie Kotite would've probably won at least one SB ring. Look after Dungy left they got right back in the SB with - I can't even remember his name but they lost to the Saints - and he was a joke. I give Dungy credit for turning around the Bucs but he didn't do anything much with the Colts, just rode the gravy train and with a team like that which gets in the playoffs every year all those years, you're bound to win at least one. Again he was good I'm not saying otherwise, but one of the best ever? Nah.
You're of course entitled to your opinion. But to belittle ESPN in the way you do, do you think you have more football knowledge than any of these people in the panel?
ESPN "Greatest Coaches in NFL History" voting panel: Chris Berman, Jeffri Chadiha, John Clayton, Colin Cowherd, Mike Ditka, Gregg Easterbrook, Herm Edwards, David Fleming, Ashley Fox, Greg Garber, Mike Golic, Suzy Kolber, Eric Mangini, Chris Mortensen, Sal Paolantonio, Bill Polian, Rick Reilly, Mike Sando, Adam Schefter, Ed Werder, Seth Wickersham, Trey Wingo.

Just so you know, it's not just ESPN, but pretty much a consensus in the sporting world that Dungy is an all time top 20 among NFL coaches. You're opinion is decidedly a minority one...

#15 :
Ranking the 16 greatest NFL coaches of all time | FOX Sports

#21 :
Ranking the 50 Best NFL Head Coaches of All Time | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights

#15 :
https://athlonsports.com/nfl/25-grea...es-nfl-history
Old 2 weeks ago
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
You're of course entitled to your opinion. But to belittle ESPN in the way you do, do you think you have more football knowledge than any of these people in the panel?
ESPN "Greatest Coaches in NFL History" voting panel: Chris Berman, Jeffri Chadiha, John Clayton, Colin Cowherd, Mike Ditka, Gregg Easterbrook, Herm Edwards, David Fleming, Ashley Fox, Greg Garber, Mike Golic, Suzy Kolber, Eric Mangini, Chris Mortensen, Sal Paolantonio, Bill Polian, Rick Reilly, Mike Sando, Adam Schefter, Ed Werder, Seth Wickersham, Trey Wingo.
Right wing media made ESPN the boogie man during the Jemele "the six" phase. (even with similar political beliefs I had a very very very hard time watching those two, tbh, it was often cringe worthy.)

It'll now stick forever.

ESPN made the error of promoting a poorly performing "him & hers" to the 6 o'clock SportsCenter hour, opening ESPN up to being one of the go-to right wing media villains.

There's no defense once this happens, as you know. No use with this logic and credentials stuff. Cause, you know, Jemele. Hulk SMASH.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #364
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Right wing media made ESPN the boogie man during the Jemele "the six" phase. (even with similar political beliefs I had a very very very hard time watching those two, tbh, it was often cringe worthy.)

It'll now stick forever.

ESPN made the error of promoting a poorly performing "him & hers" to the 6 o'clock SportsCenter hour, opening ESPN up to being one of the go-to right wing media villains.

There's no defense once this happens, as you know. No use with this logic and credentials stuff. Cause, you know, Jemele. Hulk SMASH.
ESPN...don't get me started.

Jemele Hill didn't do anything wrong other than speak the truth. Considering the well chronicled sexist and misogynistic culture in Bristol, that of a frat like environment, ironically she's got way more balls than anyone there. More smarts too - evidenced by the fact that she now is a staff writer for the Atlantic.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
ESPN...don't get me started.

Jemele Hill didn't do anything wrong other than speak the truth. Considering the well chronicled sexist and misogynistic culture in Bristol, that of a frat like environment, ironically she's got way more balls than anyone there. More smarts too - evidenced by the fact that she now is a staff writer for the Atlantic.
Yeah SHE didn't do anything wrong. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to headline her did the wrong. People don't want all that on sports TV, at least not to the degree that show would go.

I, and people in general, specifically watch ESPN to escape all that. Sports channels are where you can watch the stories of great people working their hardest and doing their best to achieve greatness. The vibe of the channel is exact opposite of "here's where the world is sucking the most today according to our particular view" news.

She's in a much better fit for herself now, I hope she goes far.

I'm just saying. . . the error was made to go that far on sports TV. A nice set up for 10 years of blanket ignorant ESPN cheap shots that will be coming from that side of things. "All those people on the panel are clowns because Jemele" type reasoning. I hear it when I visit the home state.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #366
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Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Yeah SHE didn't do anything wrong. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to headline her did the wrong. People don't want all that on sports TV, at least not to the degree that show would go.

I, and people in general, specifically watch ESPN to escape all that. Sports channels are where you can watch the stories of great people working their hardest and doing their best to achieve greatness. The vibe of the channel is exact opposite of "here's where the world is sucking the most today according to us" news.

She's in a much better fit for herself now, I hope she goes far.

I'm just saying. . . the error was made to go that far on sports TV. A nice set up for 10 years of blanket ignorant ESPN cheap shots that will be coming from that side of things. "All those people on the panel are clowns because Jemele" type reasoning. I hear it when I visit the home state.
AFAIK, Hill was ostracized for her twitter comments, not what she said on air. If she were on the NBA network, it would have been a non issue, but the fact that ESPN was her employer, a corporate media presence with reaches in all demographics, including a major partnership with NASCAR, it was untenable she could remain, given the ensuing outrage and potential advertiser defections brought on by boycotts, in this day and age's bifurcated political/societal environment.

The "His and Hers" show was actually good. It was a hybrid cultural show with sports as a pretext, and built on the personalities of Hill and Michael Smith, and the on air chemistry they obviously had. It was also very popular, therefore the ill fated decision to have them headline SC. But I think there were extraneous circumstances, that being at that time there was a major purge of talent and staff at ESPN due to declining ratings, and the bean counters cut bait on over 100 reporters/writers in a single day. It was on top of that fiasco Hill and Smith were brought in to try to save the day and mitigate the dumpster fire that was going on in full glory right in front of them...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
The "His and Hers" show was actually good. It was a hybrid cultural show with sports as a pretext, and built on the personalities of Hill and Michael Smith, and the on air chemistry they obviously had. It was also very popular, therefore the ill fated decision to have them headline SC. But I think there were extraneous circumstances, that being at that time there was a major purge of talent and staff at ESPN due to declining ratings, and the bean counters cut bait on over 100 reporters/writers in a single day. It was on top of that fiasco Hill and Smith were brought in to try to save the day and mitigate the dumpster fire that was going on in full glory right in front of them...
I can appreciate that some people liked it, but I always thought His and Hers was cringe, and that SC6 was unwatchable. And I'm in line with their politics for the most part. It was because of them and their personalities. Their self righteous pontifications were tedious on a sports channel. I find Will Cain to be the same thing, from the other side. I wish they'd boot him too.

Bringing those two in to "save the day" was a terrible decision.

His & Hers wasn't doing that well, they lost viewers instead of gaining them every day, they couldn't retain the audience. Someone at the network liked them and took a gamble: "Mike and Jemele both spent years and years at ESPN searching for a stable home, and found it when Numbers Never Lie yielded way to His & Hers on ESPN2. While the show did not usually maintain the entire audience of its First Take lead-in, it was smart and fun and different and resonated on social media enough for them to attain the opportunity to co-host SC6."
Old 2 weeks ago
  #368
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Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
You're of course entitled to your opinion. But to belittle ESPN in the way you do, do you think you have more football knowledge than any of these people in the panel?
If someone with a doctorate in mathematics told you that 2+2=17, would you believe them?

And do I really need to explain the glaring fallacy of "it's a popular opinion so it must be right" - ?

And the comments by the both of you above are a small but telling sample of the circus clown remark I made earlier. ESPN (and the NFL) has been an pathetic, annoying joke for many years and IMO is a picture postcard of much that is wrong with sports today. It's not really about the sport any more, it's about being "entertainment" The inane, jokey, yuk yuk BS got old long ago to anyone with a functioning brain that cares about the sport. I would not be surprised if they started wearing face paint and big floppy shoes while "Entry of the Gladiators" doodled on in the background. In fact, I would prefer it; that would at least be honest, vs pretending they are respectable and care about the sport over ratings and the almighty dollar and therefore pandering to the casual bonehead fan who knows relatively little about the sport but wants in on something so popular (in fact probably because it's popular).

As you say, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Dungy certainly was a good coach. But IMO he'll never belong in a "one of the greatest ever" discussion, regardless of what the talking heads say.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
If someone with a doctorate in mathematics told you that 2+2=17, would you believe them?

And do I really need to explain the glaring fallacy of "it's a popular opinion so it must be right" - ?

And the comments by the both of you above are a small but telling sample of the circus clown remark I made earlier. ESPN (and the NFL) has been an pathetic, annoying joke for many years and IMO is a picture postcard of much that is wrong with sports today. It's not really about the sport any more, it's about being "entertainment" The inane, jokey, yuk yuk BS got old long ago to anyone with a functioning brain that cares about the sport. I would not be surprised if they started wearing face paint and big floppy shoes while "Entry of the Gladiators" doodled on in the background. In fact, I would prefer it; that would at least be honest, vs pretending they are respectable and care about the sport over ratings and the almighty dollar and therefore pandering to the casual bonehead fan who knows relatively little about the sport but wants in on something so popular (in fact probably because it's popular).

As you say, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Dungy certainly was a good coach. But IMO he'll never belong in a "one of the greatest ever" discussion, regardless of what the talking heads say.
OK, you have a better idea of Dungy's place in history than: Chris Berman, Jeffri Chadiha, John Clayton, Colin Cowherd, Mike Ditka, Gregg Easterbrook, Herm Edwards, David Fleming, Ashley Fox, Greg Garber, Mike Golic, Suzy Kolber, Eric Mangini, Chris Mortensen, Sal Paolantonio, Bill Polian, Rick Reilly, Mike Sando, Adam Schefter, Ed Werder, Seth Wickersham, Trey Wingo.

Got it...

I think you've outed yourself in your own words: "casual bonehead fan"...nuff said.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
If someone with a doctorate in mathematics told you that 2+2=17, would you believe them?

And do I really need to explain the glaring fallacy of "it's a popular opinion so it must be right" - ?

And the comments by the both of you above are a small but telling sample of the circus clown remark I made earlier. ESPN (and the NFL) has been an pathetic, annoying joke for many years and IMO is a picture postcard of much that is wrong with sports today. It's not really about the sport any more, it's about being "entertainment" The inane, jokey, yuk yuk BS got old long ago to anyone with a functioning brain that cares about the sport. I would not be surprised if they started wearing face paint and big floppy shoes while "Entry of the Gladiators" doodled on in the background. In fact, I would prefer it; that would at least be honest, vs pretending they are respectable and care about the sport over ratings and the almighty dollar and therefore pandering to the casual bonehead fan who knows relatively little about the sport but wants in on something so popular (in fact probably because it's popular).

As you say, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Dungy certainly was a good coach. But IMO he'll never belong in a "one of the greatest ever" discussion, regardless of what the talking heads say.
I think a lighthearted, fun, ball busting approach to sports talk is the way to go. Its a channel that always leaves you feeling good. Its the most positive and motivating channel on TV, where people have fun enjoying the stories of those achieving greatness.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #371
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Ok, I consider Dungy an all time great but where do you put Andy Reid in those talks? I mean I think he might be top 10, perhaps even top .

I think the fact that hes never won a SB hurts his legacy but doesnt take away from his greatness.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuc647 View Post
Ok, I consider Dungy an all time great but where do you put Andy Reid in those talks? I mean I think he might be top 10, perhaps even top .

I think the fact that hes never won a SB hurts his legacy but doesnt take away from his greatness.
He's definitely in the top 50. If he had a SB win, I think he'd be mentioned right along with Dungy. Reid I believe has more total victories. Bleacher Report has him at #41 (Ranking the 50 Best NFL Head Coaches of All Time | Bleacher Report | Latest News, Videos and Highlights).

He's #1 as far as being a Kool Aid guy impersonator.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #373
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12tone, I saw that article and just cant take it serious because it has Jeff, the QB killer, Fisher as 36, come the $&%^ on with that!!!!!!!!!!!

But in all seriousness a lot of coaches dont get credit for the wins the team gets. Ill say Reid has spawned Rivera, Harbaugh, Pederson, Nagy, McDermott, and Shurmur. His predecessor was amazing as well and doesnt get enough credit either.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuc647 View Post
12tone, I saw that article and just cant take it serious because it has Jeff, the QB killer, Fisher as 36, come the $&%^ on with that!!!!!!!!!!!

But in all seriousness a lot of coaches dont get credit for the wins the team gets. Ill say Reid has spawned Rivera, Harbaugh, Pederson, Nagy, McDermott, and Shurmur. His predecessor was amazing as well and doesnt get enough credit either.
Yeah, not a big Fischer fan either. He wouldn't have won his SB without Mike Martz running the offense.

That list, what's more egregious is they have Noll and Shula ahead of Bill Walsh. I think Walsh is either 3 or 2 with Belichick, behind Lombardi as #1 .
Old 2 weeks ago
  #375
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Not gonna lie I would have o put Billy B at #1 .
Old 1 week ago
  #376
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Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I think you've outed yourself in your own words: "casual bonehead fan"...nuff said.
So.....first you think I'm a "bonehead" because I disagree with these alleged experts. Cuz, yknow, so-called experts are never wrong.

Then you proceed to disagree with these alleged experts.

Pot, meet kettle. And thanks for confirming you're nowhere near capable of an intelligent discussion on this topic.

Oh I almost forgot: " "

Old 1 week ago
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill5 View Post
So.....first you think I'm a "bonehead" because I disagree with these alleged experts. Cuz, yknow, so-called experts are never wrong.

Then you proceed to disagree with these alleged experts.

Pot, meet kettle. And thanks for confirming you're nowhere near capable of an intelligent discussion on this topic.

Oh I almost forgot: " "

Yeah, it's my belief Walsh is ahead of both Noll and Shula. I don't think that's too outlandish. Do you?

If you want I can cogently detail why I think so...would you like me to?

...and, Lombardi is Lombardi. Yeah, I think he is the greatest NFL coach in history.
Old 1 week ago
  #378
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I liked what Lombardi said that championship teams are built off of love. When you pull for your fellow man nothing is stronger. I think he also said there are 2 kinds of players those you have to put in their place and those you have to lift. As far as creating a team I think he was the greatest.
Old 1 week ago
  #379
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I have some trepidation putting Belichick #1 because of spygate and deflategate...that's just when they got caught, Who knows what other shenanigans he partook in.
Old 1 week ago
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
I have some trepidation putting Belichick #1 because of spygate and deflategate...that's just when they got caught, Who knows what other shenanigans he partook in.
Spygate: It's pro football, people throwing balls around, not adversarial governments throwing people in front of bullets. They all spy on each other. If a team doesn't spy on its opponents, well Huzzah! for them. Did they win? If it were high school kids filming their crosstown rivals, I wouldn't look at it much differently unless their coach conspiratorially put them up to it. But in the NFL, its adults against adults. In the end, the only thing that really matters is who wins on the field. Whatever anybody thinks about him, Belichick knows how to win more than anybody.

Deflategate: Much ado about nothing. First off, Deflategate wan't pinned on Belichick. Second, if the NFL was so concerned about the character and quality of the football, why was Tom Brady or anybody from either team allowed to possess and control the bloody game ball? The refs should have had exclusive control of all footballs that would be used during the game. Kickers don't get to possess and decide which ball they're going to use vis-a-vis the distance from the uprights. (Or do they?) It was cold. I get it. It isn't a shining example of morality to tamper with the game ball. Pitchers get ejected in baseball for that kind of thing. But that's sports. If Lombardi never pulled a single untoward stunt over his entire career, then fine. Make him No. 2.

Spygate and Deflategate are incidental to and immaterial in the career of Bill Belichick. Just my opinion. However, Belichick is not the greatest. He is No. 2. (Lombardi isn't even in my top ten.) The greatest coach of all time was John by God Madden. We had season tickets to the Oakland Raiders from 1968 to 1979, and I watched him in countless games with my dad. He was absolutely hilarious. Madden was as big of an entertainment spectacle on the field as the game itself.
Old 1 week ago
  #381
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If we're judging coaching on win/loss records, wouldn't that make Don Shula the greatest ever? How many losing seasons did that guy have as head coach?
Old 1 week ago
  #382
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Originally Posted by 9xSound View Post
The greatest coach of all time was John by God Madden. We had season tickets to the Oakland Raiders from 1968 to 1979, and I watched him in countless games with my dad. He was absolutely hilarious. Madden was as big of an entertainment spectacle on the field as the game itself.
He's obviously in the pantheon. His career winning percentage used to be #1 for the longest time, I believe he's 2 right now.

One must realize, he was Gruden before there was a Gruden. Al Davis entrusted the Raiders to a very young unproven coach in Madden, and if it weren't for the Noll led Steelers, he might very well have won at least three if not four or five SBs before he burned out...

the thing was, as much a personality as Madden was (which really didn't come into full focus until he became a commentator), he was a bit player in the insane loony zoo that the Raiders were in the 70s...for that duration (Stabler, Matuzak, Tatum/Atkinson, Jim Otto, Blanda, Willie Brown, Cliff Branch, Biletnikoff, Ted Hendricks, Ray Guy, etc)...perhaps the most colorful and interesting sports organization in history.
Old 1 week ago
  #383
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If your not cheating your not trying to win. Rules are funny... its like betting on WWF lol and you can do that. Coaches that had biggest effect on rule changes - Madden; Belicheck. Heard back in the day... a black market playbook changed many championships. As soon as they try to plug up one loophole another 1 or 2 pop up. There is always more than one way to exploit a teams weakness or a weakness in the rule book... that will never change. (I heard they are going to the 3 1/2 step rule in NBA LOL) I read a little book called So you think you know baseball? It is filled with real oddities BUT there is usually a correct ruling to be found... not so in the NFL... my goodness. Sometimes a lil better than a soap opera... interpretive stats jurisdiction?
Old 1 week ago
  #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s wave View Post
If your not cheating your not trying to win. Rules are funny... its like betting on WWF lol and you can do that. Coaches that had biggest effect on rule changes - Madden; Belicheck. Heard back in the day... a black market playbook changed many championships. As soon as they try to plug up one loophole another 1 or 2 pop up. There is always more than one way to exploit a teams weakness or a weakness in the rule book... that will never change. (I heard they are going to the 3 1/2 step rule in NBA LOL) I read a little book called So you think you know baseball? It is filled with real oddities BUT there is usually a correct ruling to be found... not so in the NFL... my goodness. Sometimes a lil better than a soap opera... interpretive stats jurisdiction?
Lombardi - spygate, deflategate...I don't think so. The dude was staunchly religious, like he literally went to church every single day! Who does that? Belichick? Don't think so...definitely not Kraft.
Old 1 week ago
  #385
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Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Lombardi - spygate, deflategate...I don't think so. The dude was staunchly religious, like he literally went to church every single day! Who does that? Belichick? Don't think so...definitely not Kraft.
I was commenting on the rule bending coaches. As a flat out 'COACH' (within its most inherent meaning) was the best. I believe Dungy has a strong spiritual bent too...
Old 1 week ago
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
He's obviously in the pantheon. His career winning percentage used to be #1 for the longest time, I believe he's 2 right now.

One must realize, he was Gruden before there was a Gruden. Al Davis entrusted the Raiders to a very young unproven coach in Madden, and if it weren't for the Noll led Steelers, he might very well have won at least three if not four or five SBs before he burned out...

the thing was, as much a personality as Madden was (which really didn't come into full focus until he became a commentator), he was a bit player in the insane loony zoo that the Raiders were in the 70s...for that duration (Stabler, Matuzak, Tatum/Atkinson, Jim Otto, Blanda, Willie Brown, Cliff Branch, Biletnikoff, Ted Hendricks, Ray Guy, etc)...perhaps the most colorful and interesting sports organization in history.
I grew up watching all of those guys. Great memories. The Oakland Coliseum was a hell of a spectacle to a kid back then — when you didn't have to think twice about the wisdom of taking a kid to an Oakland Raiders game. Yes, it was a loony zoo and it was filled with lots of very colorful characters, both on and off the field. But Madden was no bit player. That dude was much larger than life during games. He was the Head Coach by God and there was never the slightest trace of question about it. When he first entered broadcasting and crashed through that big paper whatever it was, I just laughed. Madden was born to be bigger than life. I always wondered what was on the tag that forever dangled off his belt loop. He had it there every game.
Old 1 week ago
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9xSound View Post
I grew up watching all of those guys. Great memories. The Oakland Coliseum was a hell of a spectacle to a kid back then — when you didn't have to think twice about the wisdom of taking a kid to an Oakland Raiders game. Yes, it was a loony zoo and it was filled with lots of very colorful characters, both on and off the field. But Madden was no bit player. That dude was much larger than life during games. He was the Head Coach by God and there was never the slightest trace of question about it. When he first entered broadcasting and crashed through that big paper whatever it was, I just laughed. Madden was born to be bigger than life. I always wondered what was on the tag that forever dangled off his belt loop. He had it there every game.
Listening to Bill King call the Raiders games was an experience itself.

Holy Toledo!
Old 1 week ago
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Listening to Bill King call the Raiders games was an experience itself.

Holy Toledo!
Holy Toledo!
Old 1 week ago
  #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9xSound View Post
I grew up watching all of those guys. Great memories. The Oakland Coliseum was a hell of a spectacle to a kid back then — when you didn't have to think twice about the wisdom of taking a kid to an Oakland Raiders game. Yes, it was a loony zoo and it was filled with lots of very colorful characters, both on and off the field. But Madden was no bit player. That dude was much larger than life during games. He was the Head Coach by God and there was never the slightest trace of question about it. When he first entered broadcasting and crashed through that big paper whatever it was, I just laughed. Madden was born to be bigger than life. I always wondered what was on the tag that forever dangled off his belt loop. He had it there every game.
My best friend had a cousin; Mike Eischeid - every year he got a signed football from whole team and staff... considering that was the tri-state area... many kids did not like that...lol I believe Mike still holds a few odd records as well some in the super bowls.

I moved out to live in Lafayette.... (Lamorinda) still love that place over the hill from Berkeley... In 9 minutes I could ride my bicycle to the bays water... on Monday Night is was a whitehole... lol...
Old 6 days ago
  #390
In regards to the Patriots, to add insult to injury:

Kraft-gate!
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