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AMS Neve 1073 vs originals Other Modular Audio Processors
Old 5th April 2015
  #1
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AMS Neve 1073 vs originals

Is there a significant difference?
Any AMS users? Especially on vocals?
Also how do AMS versions compare to BAE 1073s?
Thx

Last edited by CJ1973; 5th April 2015 at 04:31 PM..
Old 5th April 2015
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 View Post
Is there a significant difference?
Any AMS users? Especially on vocals?
Also how do AMS versions compare to BAE 1073s?
Thx
Do a search, plenty of material on this. In short yes, there is a difference between AMS and vintage ones. Not necessarily a bad thing. Both are equally great.
Old 5th April 2015
  #3
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I use the 1073LB. Are they in the general Neve 1073 family? Yes. Do they sound great? Yes. Do they sound vintage? Probably not. You're going to have to listen to it to see if the differences are something you care about.
Old 5th April 2015
  #4
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I've tried em all.
Use older Averill 1073's when Avedis was involved.he knows wuss up.They sound good.
Haven't used AMS in years. Remember they sounded ok but preferred original. Sounded thicker more vibey.ams sounded firmer more modern.
No current interest in Mark Loughmans newer BAE stuff.I'd rather deal w/ Avedis.
I Had an Aurora gtq.not like vintage but still really good.
my vintage 1084's ain't goin nowhere.hands down beat every clone.
Old 5th April 2015
  #5
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9XnfLgkLN0

Mark/BAE seems to be keeping the build true as is possible.
Old 5th April 2015
  #6
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I like Mark's pieces and have heard them. Mark is a cool cat!! IMHO, his music is just as good as his preamps!
There is a spark in them that I think the AMS does not have. Also I sensed that tiny mid-scoop (not sure how to describe it sorry) or the bump in high/low. However the AMS seems very full but a tad sterile. I have not heard the vintage pieces so that leaves me questioning.
On a side note, I just purchased a V76s TAB Telefunken so this gives me a nice arsenal for vocals. I still want a Neve with it's Eq points for vocals (I have an AMS 1073DPA and it's great but looking to step up a notch for versatility).
Old 5th April 2015
  #7
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Have you considered the Heritage 1073? I recently did a test with some vintage 1066's, Heritage, BAE and AMS 1073's. We only listened to the preamp due to the fact that the vintage modules were 1066's with different eq points. We all prefered the vintage modules, but the Heritage came second and were very close. A bit less saturated and thumby in the low mids, but still with more character and vibe than the BAE and AMS. The AMS was the loser for us, but they were all great.
Old 5th April 2015
  #8
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The heritage comps are pretty cool.
All Class A output for little more vibe.
Old 6th April 2015
  #9
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There's so many good Neve style pres nowadays. My personal favorite of the clones is BAE as it sounds the thickest/darkest to my ears but AMS, Heritage, AML, all make great clones And Aurora and Avedis make great Neve inspired Pres.

Honestly, there are a multitude of variables in a signal chain starting with the source room and mic. If you have those right the difference between any of these pres will be inconsequential to anyone but the most neurotically obsessed because in the end it should be about the music not the equipment. All of the above are quality pieces that will do a good job within a high end recording chain.

I'd also wager real money that if you had a session with several vintage Neves and several different clone Neves even those obsessed wouldn't be able to tell the differences in the context of a mix.

As always, at this level I think its much to do about nothing but this is GS so carry on sirs
Old 6th April 2015
  #10
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AMS-Neve, vintage Neve, BAE...they're all great. Just pick one and go make a record.

I've had the older, Avedis 1073's here in my studio next to AMS modules next to vintage modules, and I've used them all on various projects over the years. They are all essentially the same tool, and none of them will prevent you from getting a great sound IMO -- JB
Old 6th April 2015
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 View Post
Also how do AMS versions compare to BAE 1073s?
IMO: What the AMS lacks compared to the BAE - the highest level of low-range saturation and phase distortion - is pretty easy to add.

What the BAE lacks compared to the AMS - clarity in the upper range - is difficult to add back in. But clarity might not be what you want on some sources.

Last edited by Deleted User; 6th April 2015 at 07:01 AM..
Old 6th April 2015
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 View Post
Is there a significant difference?
Any AMS users? Especially on vocals?
Also how do AMS versions compare to BAE 1073s?
Thx
They're all slightly different...but no two vintage units are going to be the "same" either...partly due to age and history of repair and maintenance.

The main differences between the vintage units and the new ones are newer generation Carnhill transformers Vs the old Marinair / St. Ives...supposedly there's some sort of EPA banned chemical in the equation that the new gen Tranny's don't implement from what I've been told...but honestly age again is the bigger factor in terms of differences.

I've owned a lot of vintage 1272's...and tried many other Neve clones and inspired designs...they're all for the most part great aside from the GAP stuff which felt a bit "plastic" to me.

AML EZ1073's and Chameleon Labs 7602's with the "X-Mod" are a good place to start without breaking the bank. You're seriously close enough for rock and roll in most cases and what you do in the mix is going to affect things far more by that point. As for AMS Vs BAE...I would go AMS if you're in Europe...and BAE if you're in the USA...mainly because whichever is closer to you is going to be inherently cheaper to buy, AND far cheaper to have tech work done over the years. There's probably differences, but honestly, I'm this point where the slight differences in Neve clone designs and make aren't going to hold me back from nailing the sound in my head...so I might as well save money towards other items which are more expensive on the list.

As for complaining about tech work / maintenance being a priority...yes...every five or six years I think sending in your units to the manufacturer for a "check up" can be beneficial in many, many ways if your gear is in constant use. So paying for shipping overseas to boot can get expensive if the base price is about the same either way between two companies.

Last edited by herecomesyourman; 6th April 2015 at 07:41 PM..
Old 6th April 2015
  #13
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BAE/Vintage Neve there is a difference

I have the BAE 1073 and original Vintage Neve 1073 with Marinair transformers, to me there is a big difference. There is a difference in the lows, mids, highs, the original has a girth and bigness to it, it blossoms with a ton of harmonics, when you hear it you recognize it and know it. You can sit back and rest assure you have it. There is no guessing am I close? IME it's just better from start to finish, and this follows all the way through mixing the track. it's easy to treat.


I think the BAE is a great pre and I'm happy with it, however compared the BAE is cleaner, the lows are not as low or deep, the mids and highs are not as forgiving and sweet, the over all image on the original is just perfect. I had the BAE first, had I not had the Vintage original 1073 to compare it to I wouldn't have thought it could be that much better. But it is. What bothered me about the BAE is how they swear up and down that there is NO difference, they are made exactly the same. They even have well known famous artist vouching for it. I was hoping it was true, But it's not. There is a difference and it's quite noticeable. A lot of the claims with BAE is just marketing, the artist are claiming they are just as good because they are getting free gear and they really don't care because they have "the life" & access to all the originals anyway. I do believe they use the BAE as well, but it's marketing, all the other clone companies say the same thing that it's just as good if not better. "They're selling". They wouldn't be in business long if they said "our product is almost as good as the real thing, it's 70% there". It's all in the pitch.

Oh and build quality, the BAE is pretty damn good but the vintage Neve is massive just in the turn of the knobs there is a major difference. The BAE knobs have a nice click to it, where the vintage 1073 has a big CHUNK to it. It just feels more robust.

Another thing I notice is the color scheme is not 100% accurate either. Look at the HP filter on the BAE's compared to the originals, the BAE has a lighter sky blue where the original has a dark deeper royal blue to them, the Face plates same difference, the original a darker richer color, not a big deal but there is a difference.

I don't want to come across like I'm bashing BAE/Clone companies, but I think it's important to know the truth. I also think the asking price for the vintage modules is NOT worth it, but it is what it is. They are hard to come by, no one wants to let them go, they sound great, they are a clientele magnet, they constantly go up in price, and it's better than money in the bank. Unlike the dime a dozen stamped out by the thousands, Mail Order ready gear that anyone can get for dirt cheap price and lose on resale.

The BAE 1073's are of professional quality and sound, I might consider a pair of BAE 1084's in the future. However, I know you get what you pay for, I know they won't be as girthy & hairy as vintage originals. They will be great but there is a difference.
Old 6th April 2015
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
I have the BAE 1073 and original Vintage Neve 1073 with Marinair transformers, to me there is a big difference. There is a difference in the lows, mids, highs, the original has a girth and bigness to it, it blossoms with a ton of harmonics, when you hear it you recognize it and know it. You can sit back and rest assure you have it. There is no guessing am I close? IME it's just better from start to finish, and this follows all the way through mixing the track. it's easy to treat.


I think the BAE is a great pre and I'm happy with it, however compared the BAE is cleaner, the lows are not as low or deep, the mids and highs are not as forgiving and sweet, the over all image on the original is just perfect. I had the BAE first, had I not had the Vintage original 1073 to compare it to I wouldn't have thought it could be that much better. But it is. What bothered me about the BAE is how they swear up and down that there is NO difference, they are made exactly the same. They even have well known famous artist vouching for it. I was hoping it was true, But it's not. There is a difference and it's quite noticeable. A lot of the claims with BAE is just marketing, the artist are claiming they are just as good because they are getting free gear and they really don't care because they have "the life" & access to all the originals anyway. I do believe they use the BAE as well, but it's marketing, all the other clone companies say the same thing that it's just as good if not better. "They're selling". They wouldn't be in business long if they said "our product is almost as good as the real thing, it's 70% there". It's all in the pitch.

Oh and build quality, the BAE is pretty damn good but the vintage Neve is massive just in the turn of the knobs there is a major difference. The BAE knobs have a nice click to it, where the vintage 1073 has a big CHUNK to it. It just feels more robust.

Another thing I notice is the color scheme is not 100% accurate either. Look at the HP filter on the BAE's compared to the originals, the BAE has a lighter sky blue where the original has a dark deeper royal blue to them, the Face plates same difference, the original a darker richer color, not a big deal but there is a difference.

I don't want to come across like I'm bashing BAE/Clone companies, but I think it's important to know the truth. I also think the asking price for the vintage modules is NOT worth it, but it is what it is. They are hard to come by, no one wants to let them go, they sound great, they are a clientele magnet, they constantly go up in price, and it's better than money in the bank. Unlike the dime a dozen stamped out by the thousands, Mail Order ready gear that anyone can get for dirt cheap price and lose on resale.

The BAE 1073's are of professional quality and sound, I might consider a pair of BAE 1084's in the future. However, I know you get what you pay for, I know they won't be as girthy & hairy as vintage originals. They will be great but there is a difference.

Honestly I think part of what you're experiencing is age. You'll have more non linear phase distortions and inconsistencies due to parts getting older. So track to track, using the same channel strip even...the signal will impart small, almost imperceptible noises which make things "fuller" as tracks stack. Our ears adore harmonic distortions like this...so it's musical even as electronics fall into disrepair. Also there is some sort of chemically treated something, somewhere in those old transformers and whatever they used is now illegal...along with older solder which is now illegal if you want to get technical. After the EPA banned certain things on the list...the ingredients had to change up slightly.
Old 6th April 2015
  #15
The other option is the Rupert Neve Portico Channel strip that has the blue and red option that allows you to add more of that classics Neve sound. The two channel Portico pre has a similar sound when the silk button pushed in but their channel strip is more flexible with more options.
Old 6th April 2015
  #16
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Dirty Demedio transformers

Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Honestly I think part of what you're experiencing is age. You'll have more non linear phase distortions and inconsistencies due to parts getting older. So track to track, using the same channel strip even...the signal will impart small, almost imperceptible noises which make things "fuller" as tracks stack. Our ears adore harmonic distortions like this...so it's musical even as electronics fall into disrepair. Also there is some sort of chemically treated something, somewhere in those old transformers and whatever they used is now illegal...along with older solder which is now illegal if you want to get technical. After the EPA banned certain things on the list...the ingredients had to change up slightly.
Agreed, when I first contacted Dave Garen at Cinemag to clone my api Wally Heider RE-312 preamp he told me that the laminations in the transformers were dirtier back then, now although technically the laminations are cleaner, that does not equal musically better. So yes and of course ingredients make a huge difference when making anything from cake to music.
Old 7th April 2015
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
I don't want to come across like I'm bashing BAE/Clone companies, but I think it's important to know the truth.
Unless I'm missing something, that's not truth or fact, or based on any objective metric, it's your opinion. You allege that the artists are biased yet you make no allowances for any bias you might have after paying a premium for those vintage pres.

I've heard multiple vintage Neves and while they all sounded great they all sounded different. When you use a mic pre as a tool to get a professional result all the high quality Neve clones along with the original Neves that I've heard do an excellent job and the differences between them are negligible. That's not truth, fact or anything else, just my opinion.
Old 7th April 2015
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
Unless I'm missing something, that's not truth or fact, or based on any objective metric, it's your opinion. You allege that the artists are biased yet you make no allowances for any bias you might have after paying a premium for those vintage pres.

I've heard multiple vintage Neves and while they all sounded great they all sounded different. When you use a mic pre as a tool to get a professional result all the high quality Neve clones along with the original Neves that I've heard do an excellent job and the differences between them are negligible. That's not truth, fact or anything else, just my opinion.
Correct, you are missing something, I stated up front in my experience, and of course it's my opinion. This is gearslutz everyone has one. I'm sharing mine on this forum just like everyone else including you. I stand by what I stated, it's correct to my beliefs off personal experience. I own both, you stated the difference is negligible, I don't agree. There are thousands of scientific factors that come into play here, please RE read my post you don't have to defend your clone. I stated I like the BAE clone I think it's very good. I'm considering buying a pair of BAE 1084's. However, The OP asked if there is a difference. IME, There is. Maybe not to you but to me there is.

Paid a Premium who?

Last edited by 127Riot; 7th April 2015 at 09:18 PM..
Old 7th April 2015
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
Correct, you are missing something, I stated up front in my experience, and of course it's my opinion. This is gearslutz everyone has one. I'm sharing mine on this forum just like everyone else including you. I stand by what I stated, it's correct to my beliefs off personal experience. I own both, you stated the difference is negligible, I don't agree. There are thousands of scientific factors that come into play here, please RE read my post you don't have to defend your clone. I stated I like the BAE clone I think it's very good. I'm considering buying a pair of BAE 1084's. However, The OP asked if there is a difference. IME, There is. Maybe not to you but to me there is.

Paid a Premium who?
But give those BAE's 30+ years of constant use...eventually they'll start to phase a bit even if they're a matched pair due to the age of the components.

The biggest factor in sound differences here really is the age of the electronics...when you have a console with inconsistencies channel to channel...you create modulations and movement...things feel more fluid.

Or...if you have one or two vintage modules and you're tracking with them...you'll experience something similar as you swap sources and mics.

I owned many vintage 1272's and nothing could sound as BIG as they did when I'd shoot out other groups of channels because of this. However...I don't think this makes the new stuff "worse" by comparison...you just might love the way the old stuff sounds.
Old 7th April 2015
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
But give those BAE's 30+ years of constant use...
Old 8th April 2015
  #21
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True

Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
you just might love the way the old stuff sounds.

Ummm yeeeesss, that is true.

I've done multiple shoot outs with many various clones vs original / new vs old, "IMO" and my Experience, I favor the original and the old over the new and the clone.

There is somthing about a piece of old discrete gear that lived a life and tells a story that makes me "personally" feel good. It's not just the way it looks or feels, it's all of thee above, the build quality, the feel, the look, and most importantly the sound, obviously.

If I had a great musician like tom petty, radio head, Bosten, etc... in my studio and I had the choice between recording with a rack of BAE 1073's or a rack of Vintage original Neve 1073's I would pick the Vintage originals, because I personally believe that they have a better sound maybe it's only 15/20% better, in the world of audio recording 1% is HUGE!

Same thing with microphones, I've heard my Flea 47 vintage series directly against a real original vintage Telefunken U47 with an VF-14 tube. Guess which had that extra special somthing, no matter how much or how little it was there and it was better. Does that mean my Flea sucks no it's great that I have a $4000 mic that could come so close to such a legend. We're lucky that these clones are being made at good prices and are even available at all. I'm not downing anybody's clone or newer version of a product. I own a few of them myself but when someone asks "is there a difference?" lets not fool anyone. There is for sure a difference. I hear it. All people I've sat around doing listening test with hear it to. I'm not the only one that thinks this. I know of a studio that has 2 - 8 space racks loaded with vintage 1073's that float between studio a, b, c, d, if the BAE's were the exact same with No difference they could easily sell one of those vintage racks and outfit all 4 of their studios with the clone. There are a few reasons why they don't.

1 high end engineers and clients request them,

2 the sound, it's different,

3 some people want the real thing, no the REAL thing.


Much love and respect to all.
Old 8th April 2015
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimmt View Post
Hahahahahaha! Bahahahahaha!
Old 8th April 2015
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
Ummm yeeeesss, that is true.

I've done multiple shoot outs with many various clones vs original / new vs old, "IMO" and my Experience, I favor the original and the old over the new and the clone.

There is somthing about a piece of old discrete gear that lived a life and tells a story that makes me "personally" feel good. It's not just the way it looks or feels, it's all of thee above, the build quality, the feel, the look, and most importantly the sound, obviously.

If I had a great musician like tom petty, radio head, Bosten, etc... in my studio and I had the choice between recording with a rack of BAE 1073's or a rack of Vintage original Neve 1073's I would pick the Vintage originals, because I personally believe that they have a better sound maybe it's only 15/20% better, in the world of audio recording 1% is HUGE!

Same thing with microphones, I've heard my Flea 47 vintage series directly against a real original vintage Telefunken U47 with an VF-14 tube. Guess which had that extra special somthing, no matter how much or how little it was there and it was better. Does that mean my Flea sucks no it's great that I have a $4000 mic that could come so close to such a legend. We're lucky that these clones are being made at good prices and are even available at all. I'm not downing anybody's clone or newer version of a product. I own a few of them myself but when someone asks "is there a difference?" lets not fool anyone. There is for sure a difference. I hear it. All people I've sat around doing listening test with hear it to. I'm not the only one that thinks this. I know of a studio that has 2 - 8 space racks loaded with vintage 1073's that float between studio a, b, c, d, if the BAE's were the exact same with No difference they could easily sell one of those vintage racks and outfit all 4 of their studios with the clone. There are a few reasons why they don't.

1 high end engineers and clients request them,

2 the sound, it's different,

3 some people want the real thing, no the REAL thing.


Much love and respect to all.

I totally get it...but it's actually the fact that the components have aged which is making things sound special...I know vintage gear always has a story...but it's kind of like an aged guitar which has "bloomed" essentially. The phasing incurred by aged parts is what you like...now some parts are probably different to modern counterparts, but this also means New Old Stock parts in many builds would yield similar returns.

The chemical treatments that the EPA banned however...and sometimes how certain transformers were wound...and the old solder are different stories however.
Old 8th April 2015
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimmt View Post
No one does unfortunately.
Old 8th April 2015
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I've tried em all.
Use older Averill 1073's when Avedis was involved.he knows wuss up.They sound good.
Haven't used AMS in years. Remember they sounded ok but preferred original. Sounded thicker more vibey.ams sounded firmer more modern.
No current interest in Mark Loughmans newer BAE stuff.I'd rather deal w/ Avedis.
I Had an Aurora gtq.not like vintage but still really good.
my vintage 1084's ain't goin nowhere.hands down beat every clone.
Firmer, more modern.

Agreed.

I really like the AMS. I have a few channels of them.

I agreee with everything that roundbadge has said.
Old 10th April 2015
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I've tried em all.
Use older Averill 1073's when Avedis was involved.he knows wuss up.They sound good.
Haven't used AMS in years. Remember they sounded ok but preferred original. Sounded thicker more vibey.ams sounded firmer more modern.
No current interest in Mark Loughmans newer BAE stuff.I'd rather deal w/ Avedis.
I Had an Aurora gtq.not like vintage but still really good.
my vintage 1084's ain't goin nowhere.hands down beat every clone.
Hey roundbadge,

ive been researching which 1073 to get for a while on here, and always valued your input , i just started researching again and saw this post, may i ask whats the difference between the current bae stuff and the past bae stuff?...im asking more so about the product and sound, i do know there was a whole sell off to mark recently.
Old 10th April 2015
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylemancini View Post
Hey roundbadge,
may i ask whats the difference between the current bae stuff and the past bae stuff?... a whole sell off to mark recently.
Great question Kyle. I was about to ask the same and can you elaborate on this "sell off to mark" aspect? Also how do we find an old Bae? Different logo or look?
Old 10th April 2015
  #28
There is a difference...

Having owned original Neve 1073's and 1066's, and used the AMS, BAE and others, this is what I think the difference is. Most solid good condition Originals have most of their original electronics. After years and years of current running them, and the parts aging, most of the old originals have a sound unique to something that is well, old. Luckily, it is a desirable sound. I love the way that Neve 1073's put out audio. It's kinda nice though if you think about. Some things are Originals. Not meant to be copied or mimic'ed because the greatness inside was what set them apart from everything else. I think it's cool that many manufacturers try to deliver exact copies of the Originals. But really no matter how faithful the circuit is designed. Unless the Manufacturer unearths New Old Stock Pots, Transformers, Resistors, Transistors even the wire. Their imitations will sound awesome, but not the exact same character as old. Someone above here said give the BAE 30 years of use and you will see what it ends up sounding like (like an original). He is probably right about that. If I was going to spend over $3k on a single channel Mic Preamp, I would just spend more and get the real deal (as long as it hasn't been modified or messed with). You will never want to sell it. It's that good.
Old 10th April 2015
  #29
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Anyone compared RTZ 9762 against any of the above???

I've owned Heritage and BAE and both sounded pretty good.
Old 10th April 2015
  #30
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Thanks everyone so far!!!
Ok let me cut to the chase...lol.is there anyone selling a vintage 1073 or 1084?
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