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Adding Automation to a Trident 80B Consoles
Old 21st March 2015
  #1
Gear Nut
Adding Automation to a Trident 80B

Is it possible to add Tonelux Shadowmix Automation to a Trident 80B to control the faders in say ProTools? Or is there any other options out there that would allow full ProTools interaction? Testing the waters to see what I can have custom made. A full size Trident 80B, with Automation added and some kind of DAW Controller system would make one hell of a desk! Not to mention, love the sound of the desk already and the EQ's are just magical. Adding all the additional pieces would make an already amazing console a one of kind mixing dream!
Old 21st March 2015
  #2
Sum.mation looks interesting. I have no experience with it (I was looking at it for my own personal use), but it seems to work with most any DAW and I believe specifically uses the inserts on the console to integrate with the analog realm.
Old 21st March 2015
  #3
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

SSL Sigma?

Look at the huge thread..

Armando uses it on inserts for his SSL and it's exactly what I'll be doing for my console purchase ... which hopefully will be soon!

Wiggy
Old 21st March 2015
  #4
I happen to know there is a very exciting new option coming down the track...
Old 21st March 2015
  #5
I have nothing to add, but this thread excites me, so yeah .

I think aftermarket daw-controlled automation is the key to saving old consoles and integrating them into modern studios.
Old 21st March 2015
  #6
Im following this thread
Old 21st March 2015
  #7
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudleys100 View Post
Im following this thread
ditto.
Old 21st March 2015
  #8
Lives for gear
 

... daw-controlled automation ... old consoles ...

Maybe that exists somewhere, but I haven't seen it. What I have seen is automation systems that essentially store MIDI data on DAW tracks...the MIDI data reflects the movements of faders/controls/whatever, but replicating those movements is part of the console automation system, not the DAW.

And this seems to be another subject where some confusion exists.

Some automation systems allow the console's faders/controls/whatever to serve as a control surface via the HUI/MCU/Eucon protocol, but some don't. Fader automation actually predates the HUI protocol which was probably the first DAW control protocol.

SSL's current consoles (except the XL-Desk) allow the automation of both the analog console movements, and via: HUI/MCU DAW controls. According to the documentation, the API 1608's automation allows automation of both elements, but only uses the HUI protocol on the DAW side.

So you really have to get specific when you talk about automation...
Old 21st March 2015
  #9
Gear Nut
I spoke with Tonelux, it seems Shadowmix would in fact work, but it wouldn't be exactly the way I wanted. I'm still researching other options and hopefully can find the perfect addition. Turning an older desk into a new modern DAW controllable desk seems to be on the minds of a lot of people. Just imagine how many places lose business due to not having automation. Someone really needs to pick this up. Full control (if not decent control over ProTools and or other DAW's) put into older great sounding desks needs to be brought to the public. I could see more systems selling then any new Avid/SSL controller. Adding all the DAW power of a AWS/S6 to your already amazing analog board gives you the best of both worlds!
Old 21st March 2015
  #10
Tonelux's Shadow mix looks great: Welcome to Tonelux

It would seem that it could work different consoles if they configured the faceplate to the more common fader dimensions. Tonelux definitely uses narrower channels on their boards, but Neve, SSL, etc. use 1.5" wide channels. It would be cool if this were easily modifiable, but I have no way of knowing.

I heard somewhere on GS that Martin Sound was working on the same thing for Flying Faders, but I can't find that now, and I'm not sure if it ever came to be. Their website looks like it's from 1996.
Old 21st March 2015
  #11
Gear Nut
According to a new message I just received from Tonelux, shadowmix is no longer available. But, they are working on a new product. I've quoted the email to give a little moe insight.

"Hi Jerry,
We currently do not have shadow mix automation available and have been in development of a new automation system called trimix. Unlike shadowmix, trimix will work for trident and other consoles and will run on a similar premiss".
Old 21st March 2015
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leak1989 View Post
According to a new message I just received from Tonelux, shadowmix is no longer available. But, they are working on a new product. I've quoted the email to give a little moe insight.

"Hi Jerry,
We currently do not have shadow mix automation available and have been in development of a new automation system called trimix. Unlike shadowmix, trimix will work for trident and other consoles and will run on a similar premiss".
That's awesome.
Old 21st March 2015
  #13
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by .:On The Rock:. View Post
That's awesome.
I've also volunteered to be a guinea pig of sorts if needed and even offered to pay. I'm hoping to be one of the first places in the world to have Trimix in there console. A Trident 80b, with DAW controls and Automation. I'm getting super excited over here!
Old 22nd March 2015
  #14
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subspace's Avatar
the irony that the new Trident Trimix automation won't retrofit to my original Trident Trimix desk, ah me...
Old 22nd March 2015
  #15
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by subspace View Post
the irony that the new Trident Trimix automation won't retrofit to my original Trident Trimix desk, ah me...
Let me rephrase, the first to have Trimix added to an older 80B. [deleted by mod]

Last edited by [email protected]; 22nd March 2015 at 01:54 PM.. Reason: a little fast on the draw
Old 22nd March 2015
  #16
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subspace's Avatar
Um, what? The Trimix console doesn't allow automation upgrades at all, has a one piece input strip with no separate fader panel for upgrades. Just lamenting my Trident's limitations, [deleted by mod]

Last edited by [email protected]; 22nd March 2015 at 01:54 PM.. Reason: just cleaning up
Old 22nd March 2015
  #17
Wow this would be great. Does anyone else have info on this?
Old 22nd March 2015
  #18
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by dudleys100 View Post
Wow this would be great. Does anyone else have info on this?
I'm working on getting as much information as I can. They've been sort of secretive about exactly how it'll work and features. Whose to say if it'll be marketed by the end of the year. I do however, want to bring older boards to the modern workflow. Having recall would make going back to original mixes so much easier! I know there's been several times during my career where I thought "Man, I sure wish I could start over with the original mix". The ability to go back to how you had everything set for your project prior to other engineers using the board is priceless.
Old 22nd March 2015
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Hi
Automation of FADERS and mutes is relatively easy for most desks but any form of recall capability of any of the other controls on most desks not designed with this from the outset is practically impossible.
The likes of SSL and newer Neve desks would be possible as would AMEK's Big, Recall, 501, Rembrandt, Galileo, Angela 2 and of course 9098 since these all had 'recall' capability built in.
Selected models from other manufacturers might also have similar capability.
Matt S
Old 22nd March 2015
  #20
The Tonelux faders will be able to recall themselves from the session file automation, but if you want to recall the rest of the board, you may have to rely on old fashioned pen and paper.

Interestingly, a product popped up a few years ago, and I'm not sure what happened to it, but it was essentially a video/photo camera mounted in front of a rack. The user would take a photo of the rack to save the setting of the gear. Then, when recalling, the user would use the application on an iPad, which would switch rapidly between the current video feed and the past photo, allowing you to quickly see the differences between the two. It seemed pretty innovative and useful, but fairly ugly as the camera was mounted right in front of the rack on an arm. My thought was to use a series of cameras permanently mounted in your room that would be pointed at your console and rack gear, so they aren't in your way. If anyone knows where the original thread was for this product, please post it.
Old 22nd March 2015
  #21
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Don't confuse the older Trident mini-console called a Trimix with this new automation wearing the same name.

I asked API a few years ago about developing a"Photo Recall" such as you describe, as the pointers on their knobs are clearly distinct & visible.
Old 22nd March 2015
  #22
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
Automation of FADERS and mutes is relatively easy for most desks but any form of recall capability of any of the other controls on most desks not designed with this from the outset is practically impossible.
The likes of SSL and newer Neve desks would be possible as would AMEK's Big, Recall, 501, Rembrandt, Galileo, Angela 2 and of course 9098 since these all had 'recall' capability built in.
Selected models from other manufacturers might also have similar capability.
Matt S
According to the email I received from them, it will in fact add recall to much more of the board then Automation of faders.. It's going to be an expensive product, but could bring everyone's favorite old analog board to the new Digital domain. Still awaiting more information. But, there's nothing that I hate more then setting EQ's back to normal switching between projects and then trying to get the old tracks but to what they were set on before the switch.
Old 22nd March 2015
  #23
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raggedman's Avatar
 

Refraze in Dayton has an automated 80b...one of the nicest desks I've ever worked on...i believe it was uptown automation but don't quote me....if Gary King is on here in sure he could verify.
Old 25th March 2015
  #24
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leak1989 View Post
According to the email I received from them, it will in fact add recall to much more of the board then Automation of faders.. It's going to be an expensive product, but could bring everyone's favorite old analog board to the new Digital domain. Still awaiting more information. But, there's nothing that I hate more then setting EQ's back to normal switching between projects and then trying to get the old tracks but to what they were set on before the switch.
Hi

Speaking from a vintage Neve point of view that sentence is ultra optimistic.

1. The pots in the EQ have long spindles and a single track. To determine the position of the pot you need an extra track = expensive custom pot.

2. The same applies to the rotary switches that need an extra contact to indicate switch position... it's already an expensive dual concentric switch... this will make it more expensive.

3. Then there's the extra wiring to those parts, presumably scanned sequentially, so what will the effect be on the noise albeit hopefully this operation would be done when the console was at rest and not active in a session.

4. And then you need an interface inside that module and somewhere to hang it... plus a connector on the rear panel besides the already pretty full 18 way Amphenol. This creates custom metal work plus the custom wiring in the console to access the channels.

Note that I am not saying it's impossible... I'm just saying it's complex and expensive.

It's not such an issue if you are making a new console AMS-Neve, SSL, Amek, etc., but's it's a bu**er to update an oldie!

Old 25th March 2015
  #25
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Hi
If you want 'recallable' automation for all pots and switches it almost has to be designed in from the outset as the amount of extra 'stuff' that is necessary (as Geoff outlined) often simply won't fit in the space.
It could be the new 80b had this in mind and the necessary switches and pots are either already in there or the circuit boards have 'replacement' parts in mind.
Matt S
Old 25th March 2015
  #26
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raggedman's Avatar
 

When gee eff tanner talks....
People listen
Old 21st June 2018
  #27
Here for the gear
 

I have an analog console motor fader automation system that I am currently licensing to 3 console manufacturers. I call this design "RetroMix", but the licensees have their own name for it.

It uses Protools, LogicX or Digital performer as the automation engine and the system connects to the DAW computer with Ethernet using ipMIDI. Protools supports 32 channel RetroMix systems, and Logic/DP support up to 64 channels.

If you provide one sample of your fader channel plate, I can easily adapt RetroMix to fit in your fader slots. Please let me know if you want more info.
Old 21st June 2018
  #28
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmfluteguy1 View Post
I have an analog console motor fader automation system that I am currently licensing to 3 console manufacturers. I call this design "RetroMix", but the licensees have their own name for it.

It uses Protools, LogicX or Digital performer as the automation engine and the system connects to the DAW computer with Ethernet using ipMIDI. Protools supports 32 channel RetroMix systems, and Logic/DP support up to 64 channels.

If you provide one sample of your fader channel plate, I can easily adapt RetroMix to fit in your fader slots. Please let me know if you want more info.
Cost? Or approximate costs?
Old 21st June 2018
  #29
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Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

This relatively new and promising and best of all affordable

FaderMate

FaderMate by Malcolm Toft: Moving faders, any console, any DAW! From £1399.

Cheers
Wiggy
Old 21st June 2018
  #30
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmfluteguy1 View Post
I have an analog console motor fader automation system that I am currently licensing to 3 console manufacturers. I call this design "RetroMix", but the licensees have their own name for it.

It uses Protools, LogicX or Digital performer as the automation engine and the system connects to the DAW computer with Ethernet using ipMIDI. Protools supports 32 channel RetroMix systems, and Logic/DP support up to 64 channels.

If you provide one sample of your fader channel plate, I can easily adapt RetroMix to fit in your fader slots. Please let me know if you want more info.
Hello

Let me guess RND 5088 swift mix and Trident 88 trimix... wondering who is the third ?

Any company/website to look at your work?

Best
Zam
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