The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Difficulty to decide which monitors to buy (PMC vs Amphion vs Genelec vs others)
Old 12th March 2015
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Eigenwert's Avatar
Difficulty to decide which monitors to buy (PMC vs Amphion vs Genelec vs others)

I think it is very difficult to decide which monitor to audition/ buy. Although I live in a major city with various pro gear stores I cannot audition them easily. Most stores mostly stock cheaper monitors because most clients won't buy the "serious" stuff. Long story short, I won't be able to test the stuff adequately at the same time in the same room. However, I might try one system at a time and return it to try the next one if not satisfied with some specific dealers.

I am a bedroom producer (all kinds of music, mainly electronic dance & hip hop music) looking for "budget high end" like the "cheap" lineup of active PMC monitors. I was hoping to get away @3500€ or so but when saving some time I could afford an even more expensive system (like Genelec 8351). However I am a bedroom producer and I think 3500€ already is pushing it quite a bit. The room is not adequate in my eyes for much more.
Old 12th March 2015
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

Choice: Amphion Two18 or Barefoot MM27 Gen2 or Genelec 8351

Check out this thread. You might find some good info here.

I'd like to know how good the Amphions are for tracking.
Old 12th March 2015
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
I am a bedroom producer (all kinds of music, mainly electronic dance & hip hop music) looking for "budget high end" like the "cheap" lineup of active PMC monitors. I was hoping to get away @3500€ or so but when saving some time I could afford an even more expensive system (like Genelec 8351). However I am a bedroom producer and I think 3500€ already is pushing it quite a bit. The room is not adequate in my eyes for much more.
Whatever monitor you decide, treating your room must be your No1 priority. A high end monitor will not translate at all in a poor room. On the contrary, high-end speakers usually go down to 30Hz which will definitely cause more problems like standing waves, excite your room modes further, resulting in unpleasant listening and mixing experience.

I suggest to treat your room as best as you can and you would be fine with a 1.500€ to 2.000€ speakers.
Old 12th March 2015
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

There's a set called the London Primacoustic set. Would this qualify as a good room treatment for an apartment studio?

edit: sorry to derail.
Old 12th March 2015
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Don't know where you live, but would it be possible to do a weekender to a larger city with a "true" pro audio dealer?

Might give you a chance to hear some new and/or different music, too...
Old 13th March 2015
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Eigenwert's Avatar
I'd actually have to visit a smaller city for that purpose...

Gonna buy acoustic elements to target the room specifically. I guess I'm gonna focus on bass traps first. They do not suit in all of the corners of my apartment, although I won't have any problems to fit bass traps for thousands of € in there... I'm a bit undecided about which installation method to choose (screws into the wall vs. glue). I guess I will have quite a bit of extra work when relocating one day, no matter which installation method I choose.

Thanks for all input. I guess concerning the monitoring system I should choose something in the KH120/ 8030/ Amphion One15 ballpark?
Old 13th March 2015
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
I'd actually have to visit a smaller city for that purpose...

Gonna buy acoustic elements to target the room specifically. I guess I'm gonna focus on bass traps first. They do not suit in all of the corners of my apartment, although I won't have any problems to fit bass traps for thousands of € in there... I'm a bit undecided about which installation method to choose (screws into the wall vs. glue). I guess I will have quite a bit of extra work when relocating one day, no matter which installation method I choose.

Thanks for all input. I guess concerning the monitoring system I should choose something in the KH120/ 8030/ Amphion One15 ballpark?
One thing to keep in mind...bass traps and panels are quite light...they do not require a "heavy-duty" hanger.

I don't know what vendors you have in your country, but here in the US, most vendors of non-foam acoustic treatment include some type of installation hardware with their products. For smaller pieces, it's often just a small metal clip with bent "fingers". You basically just lightly hammer the clip so it penetrates the plaster or other wall material and hang the pane from it. Other, larger, panels or clouds use (and include) the thin wire and small screw-eyes we use for hanging pictures on the wall.

If you move, you just lift the panels/traps off the hangers and go. The hangers can typically be removed with minimal wall damage...if needed, you can order replacements from the panel vendor.

I'm not making a recommendation either way, but "those who knows" don't feel foam does a very good job of dealing with home studio acoustic problems, although it is very useful in some specialized situations. But should you go that route, here's a trick I picked up from SOS magazine...glue an old (or spoiled) CD to the back of the foam, then put a small finishing nail in the wall and hang the foam from it. Voila...no wall damage...no foam damage.

But may I suggest you hit Google...many of the major US sound-control players have branches in Europe and other parts of the world, or can readily sell there...if you can't find a local manufacturer they may be able to help.

I can't give a recommendation on monitors...I'm on this thread to help me decide what a step-up from my M-Audio BX5a's should be.

Hope I've been helpful...good luck!
Old 15th March 2015
  #8
nms
Lives for gear
 
nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdenton View Post
"those who knows" don't feel foam does a very good job of dealing with home studio acoustic problems, although it is very useful in some specialized situations. But should you go that route, here's a trick I picked up from SOS magazine...glue an old (or spoiled) CD to the back of the foam, then put a small finishing nail in the wall and hang the foam from it. Voila...no wall damage...no foam damage.
This works well, but here's the professional way to mount foam:

First you take the foam and put it in a box. Then you take that box, put it away, and put proper thick panels and bass traps in the room. Works great!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
There's a set called the London Primacoustic set. Would this qualify as a good room treatment for an apartment studio?
No. Don't let anyone sell you 2" thick panels to go in a room with any amount of bass present, as it will only kill the highs and leave a muddy sloppy disaster below. Corner traps should also be a minimum of 16" on the sides if you go for a tri-trap type corner trap. Floor to ceiling coverage.
Old 15th March 2015
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

Cool. Thanks NMS. I've been doing a bit if research. Primacoustic is now officially off my list. Thanks for chiming in.
Old 15th March 2015
  #10
nms
Lives for gear
 
nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
Cool. Thanks NMS. I've been doing a bit if research. Primacoustic is now officially off my list. Thanks for chiming in.
They have some good products, just steer clear of the thin panels and compare with products from other companies, like GIK who are usually the most recommended here.

In general I'd say anyone using corner traps less than the size of GIK's soffit traps (16 or 17" cubed - floor to ceiling) is leaving plenty of room for improvement untapped.

Last edited by nms; 15th March 2015 at 02:56 AM..
Old 15th March 2015
  #11
Lives for gear
 
murphythecat87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11bit View Post
Whatever monitor you decide, treating your room must be your No1 priority. A high end monitor will not translate at all in a poor room. On the contrary, high-end speakers usually go down to 30Hz which will definitely cause more problems like standing waves, excite your room modes further, resulting in unpleasant listening and mixing experience.

I suggest to treat your room as best as you can and you would be fine with a 1.500€ to 2.000€ speakers.
not my experience
placing your speaker properly in room and knowing your room modes and plaicing your speaker and listening position appropriately is even more important then the benefit of room treatment. if you dont place your monitors and you Listening position properly, no amount of treatment will compensate for your poor placement
Old 15th March 2015
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

How do you find where the best spot of the room is? Is there a program for this? Think I remember hearing something about this.
Old 15th March 2015
  #13
nms
Lives for gear
 
nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post
not my experience
placing your speaker properly in room and knowing your room modes and plaicing your speaker and listening position appropriately is even more important then the benefit of room treatment. if you dont place your monitors and you Listening position properly, no amount of treatment will compensate for your poor placement
This is not a one or the other thing. Neither of these is sufficient enough on its own. Regardless of how well you position your speakers, if you don't treat the room it'll still be a mess. Standing waves & comb filtering galore.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...-mistakes.html

http://www.mh-audio.nl/CancellationFreq.asp

Last edited by nms; 15th March 2015 at 06:20 AM..
Old 15th March 2015
  #14
Lives for gear
 
murphythecat87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
This is not a one or the other thing. Neither of these is sufficient enough on its own. Regardless of how well you position your speakers, if you don't treat the room it'll still be a mess. Standing waves & comb filtering galore.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...-mistakes.html

mh-audio.nl - Acoustic
not in my experience.
I can take away my huge 15 inch floor to ceiling bass traps and it still sounds amazing. in my experience, placement is much more important at least for bass performance.
Old 15th March 2015
  #15
Lives for gear
 
murphythecat87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
How do you find where the best spot of the room is? Is there a program for this? Think I remember hearing something about this.
you have to find your room modes.

ime, treatment cannot tame a 10db peak, but good placement will make it go away for the most part.
the peak and dips that are severe are not caused by your room, but because you put your speaker and/or your listening position right in a room mode therefore exciting your room modes. you have to find your room modes with measuring your speaker. it will become evident where your speaker measure good and where it measure terribly.
no treatment can tame the large peaks as treatment doesnt change your room mode. if you place your speaker in a room mode, no amount of treatment will help, only right placement will.
Old 15th March 2015
  #16
Have you looked into ATC's or Quested's?

They beat Genelec's by miles. Genelec's are fine too,
but if you want 'high-end', I'd prefer ATC's or Quested's.

u47u67u87
Old 15th March 2015
  #17
nms
Lives for gear
 
nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post
ime, treatment cannot tame a 10db peak
You have very limited experience in that case. As someone who designs & treats rooms professionally I can tell you that this is not true and you are off base about a number of things. Placement is very important, but you can only get so far with placement alone.

I don't suppose you have a room measurement of your room which sounds amazing even after removing treatments? I'd love to see it.
Old 15th March 2015
  #18
Lives for gear
 
murphythecat87's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
You have very limited experience in that case. As someone who designs & treats rooms professionally I can tell you that this is not true and you are off base about a number of things. Placement is very important, but you can only get so far with placement alone.

I don't suppose you have a room measurement of your room which sounds amazing even after removing treatments? I'd love to see it.
hi! not sure if we disagree, I agree that treatment really helps, but room placement is as important ime

I have measured many rooms and placement was the first step toward good sound. the number one cause of the huge peaks and dips in the bass departments comes from placing the speaker right in a critical room mode, hence creating 15db peaks and dips. once properly placed, I can make my speaker sounds and measure relatively flat without huge dips and peaks. then, treatment add the last touch and brings down even more the dips and peaks, but if you place your speaker in a room mode, no amount of treatment will replace the wrong placement.

no I dont have the measurements anymore, sorry but it was quite indicative to what I was saying.
lets say right placement helped my speaker measures from 15+-db to 7-8 +- db from flat. then treatment brought it down to +-5db from flat. I doubt very much that treatment can tame 15 db peaks because those dips and peaks are created by room modes. unless you put so much treatment that it changes the mode of your room, right placement deal with the major problems.

however, all the right placement all had in common that I had to place my speaker at least 2-3 feet away from back wall and side wall, which may be impractical for most.
finally, listening position is also very important of course as if I place my head right in my major room mode, the bass becomes very strong and the 38% rule is a great starting point to help determine the right listening position.

Last edited by murphythecat87; 15th March 2015 at 05:05 PM..
Old 16th March 2015
  #19
Id suggest the kirsch audio sq5(around 2200$ for pair) + amp . swiss company. users say they beat everything including psi and focal twins
or
Amphion one15 + amp . ( around 3100 $ total)
or
Audiofilia AF-SM1 (3100$ for pair) + amp. italian
About the audiofilia , they use an interesing new 's system' technology by which their compact monitors can produce subbass down to 16 hz. The af-sm1 is only a 6 inch woofer monitor so its very compact seems very interesting indeed. The claim eve amphion users have moved to their product.
kirsch and audiofilia are small companies so you will have to get in touch with them directly.
Old 16th March 2015
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Eigenwert's Avatar
I've been tempted to buy used TWO15 since I saw them on the classifieds some time ago.
Old 16th March 2015
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Eigenwert's Avatar
Kirsch Audio SQ5 looks also very good

€2,350.00 for a complete system including AK-01 amp
Old 17th March 2015
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Kirsch Audio SQ5 looks also very good

€2,350.00 for a complete system including AK-01 amp
The recommended amp on their website it seems is ak-02.
Best thing is to call them or email them about it.

About the Amphion two15 for sale , that is pretty strange . May be a pair used for testing.
Old 13th July 2015
  #23
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monitorlove View Post
Id suggest the kirsch audio sq5(around 2200$ for pair) + amp . swiss company. users say they beat everything including psi and focal twins
or
Amphion one15 + amp . ( around 3100 $ total)
or
Audiofilia AF-SM1 (3100$ for pair) + amp. italian
About the audiofilia , they use an interesing new 's system' technology by which their compact monitors can produce subbass down to 16 hz. The af-sm1 is only a 6 inch woofer monitor so its very compact seems very interesting indeed. The claim eve amphion users have moved to their product.
kirsch and audiofilia are small companies so you will have to get in touch with them directly.
You recommending stuff you haven't used yourself again?
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump