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Lexicon question for high end guys Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 21st February 2015
  #1
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Thread Starter
Lexicon question for high end guys

Can I get some detailed info from studio owners that have experience with the Lexicon 224 vs. 480 vs. even the 960?

And if possible, how they compare to a Bricasti?

I own a number of great verbs but on mixes I'm always looking for magic especially on vocals.

Any personal experience & preferences appreciated.

I guess in a nutshell I'm trying to decide whether a big old Lex is the way to go- or just adding another bricasti is smarter.

Thanks in advance-
Old 21st February 2015
  #2
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
You may find the Lex family too similar. Some feel the 224XL may have the most mojo but these older units have become un-repairable.
If you only have one Bricasti...get another...then Maybe look to the TC 6000 for something different.

If you're ever in Florida stop by n checkout my tropical garden
Old 21st February 2015
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS View Post
You may find the Lex family too similar. Some feel the 224XL may have the most mojo but these older units have become un-repairable.
If you only have one Bricasti...get another...then Maybe look to the TC 6000 for something different.

If you're ever in Florida stop by n checkout my tropical garden
Thanks mike

I wondered about the maintenance. They still run several grand which is the same as a bricasti, so thanks.

And I'd love to see your tropical garden. My wife's family has a place near new Smyrna beach that we get to every now and again.

Thanks again
Old 21st February 2015
  #4
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I think most would concur that the Bricasti is the most natural sounding reverb available. Some might even say it's the more "rightful" successor to the 480L.

However with that said, both the 480L and the 224XL have a kinda big lush "euphonic" reverb sound. This my be ideal on a ballad vocal but less ideal if you are trying to recreate real room ambience for a jazz trio.

Another couple of points for the Bricasti. It is a new supported unit so should be reasonably tdouble free. Also there are no Bricasti software emulations that I know of.

While there will always be plugin haters I've found the LX480 and UAD 224XL to be highly satisfying and credible at nailng the respective effects of those units. It is true that utilizing an analog desk and hardware units can often times be more sonically satisfying than doing it all itb, however with regard to the Reverb units, I've found that this has more to do with the way the effects seem to interact with the desk rather than any sonic shortcomings in the above mentioned software which I find amazingly good.

I've not heard a 960L recently so I cannot really comment. Good luck with your search.

Last edited by Palermo; 21st February 2015 at 09:39 PM..
Old 21st February 2015
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstory View Post
Can I get some detailed info from studio owners that have experience with the Lexicon 224 vs. 480 vs. even the 960?

And if possible, how they compare to a Bricasti?

I own a number of great verbs but on mixes I'm always looking for magic especially on vocals.

Any personal experience & preferences appreciated.

I guess in a nutshell I'm trying to decide whether a big old Lex is the way to go- or just adding another bricasti is smarter.

Thanks in advance-
TBH I tend to use either plates or delays on vocals. The bricasti does plates as well, if not better, than any box I know of.

That said, I've been playing with analogue delays recently. Am liking the 500 series moog but always on the lookout for another. Would really love a nice valve/tape delay. I wish I'd snagged one of the Unity Audio Coconuts when they were on the market. Haven't ever seen a used one come up...
Old 21st February 2015
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
TBH I tend to use either plates or delays on vocals. The bricasti does plates as well, if not better, than any box I know of.

That said, I've been playing with analogue delays recently. Am liking the 500 series moog but always on the lookout for another. Would really love a nice valve/tape delay. I wish I'd snagged one of the Unity Audio Coconuts when they were on the market. Haven't ever seen a used one come up...

Hey Trev have you checked out the Fullrone Tube Echo?
Old 21st February 2015
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
Hey Trev have you checked out the Fullrone Tube Echo?
Yeah I almost snagged one a coupla months back but they are damned expensive in the UK. I'll look out for one next time I'm stateside.
Old 23rd February 2015
  #8
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I have a 224, Bricasti and PCM96. I have used a 480L before, which in my opinion just sprinkles magic on tracks. It is amazing on vocals. It transforms good vocal tracks into amazing vocal tracks.

The 224 is now my go to reverb for vocals. I also like it on drums and synth tracks. It is a dark reverb with a lot of character. I use it in combination with a PCM 41 delay. I just bought it a few months ago and absolutely love it. The only thing wrong with it is the pre-delay slider needs to be moved back and forward a few times before it responds. Otherwise is it fantastic. It only has a few presets but they are all very useable.

The Bricasti is excellent as well and has a wide range of reverb types (and expansion capabilities with V3 being released next year sometime, which as I understand will have the AMS RMX-16 Ambience preset on it). Some of the presets, especially the halls and plates have a Lexicon family sound. I look forward to the Ambience preset as the AMS-RMX 16 Ambience program is very special. The M7 probably is the most versatile reverb out of them all.

In terms of reliability, the M7 is the safest option. However, if you have an amazing tech like I do then any option will be safe (as he can fix them all).

All of the reverbs compliment each other.

Last edited by waldie wave; 23rd February 2015 at 09:05 AM..
Old 23rd February 2015
  #9
I sold off my highly modified Lexy 224XL to buy the M7. I would prefer to own both if I could afford it.
Old 23rd February 2015
  #10
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Do you have the 224 non XL?

I don't know if its just me but I could've sworn when i heard them both together the 224 sounded darker than the XL version.

Weird that the Larc would cause a tonal change. Idk maybe it was the condition of the respective units

Quote:
Originally Posted by waldie wave View Post
I have a 224, Bricasti and PCM96. I have used a 480L before, which in my opinion just sprinkles magic on tracks. It is amazing on vocals. It transforms good vocal tracks into amazing vocal tracks.

The 224 is now my go to reverb for vocals. I also like it on drums and synth tracks. It is a dark reverb with a lot of character. I use it in combination with a PCM 41 delay. I just bought it a few months ago and absolutely love it. The only thing wrong with it is the pre-delay slider needs to be moved back and forward a few times before it responds. Otherwise is it fantastic. It only has a few presets but they are all very useable.

The Bricasti is excellent as well and has a wide range of reverb types (and expansion capabilities with V3 being released next year sometime, which as I understand will have the AMS RMX-16 Ambience preset on it). Some of the presets, especially the halls and plates have a Lexicon family sound. I look forward to the Ambience preset as the AMS-RMX 16 Ambience program is very special. The M7 probably is the most versatile reverb out of them all.

In terms of reliability, the M7 is the safest option. However, if you have an amazing tech like I do then any option will be safe (as he can fix them all).

All of the reverbs compliment each other.
Old 24th February 2015
  #11
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
There were sonic improvements in the XL...the LARC was only a better human interface.
Old 24th February 2015
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
Do you have the 224 non XL?

I don't know if its just me but I could've sworn when i heard them both together the 224 sounded darker than the XL version.

Weird that the Larc would cause a tonal change. Idk maybe it was the condition of the respective units
I have the 224 non XL. I like it because it is darker than my other reverb units. It makes a good contrast to the more modern processors. It is easy to get vocals to sit well in a mix with the 224. I like using the predelay on it as it is quite prominent and brings a nice touch to tracks. However, the 480L is still my all time favourite reverb for vocal tracks. Hopefully Casey will develop some more 480L type presets with the V3 software for the M7.

Last edited by waldie wave; 3rd April 2015 at 10:05 PM..
Old 24th February 2015
  #13
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I have a 224x blue remote and a bricasti.


They work together on vocals (and most other things) like Kobe and Shaq.


First of all, whoever said you can't get them repaired anymore is misinformed. Dane Beamish of Beamish Electronics still repairs all old lexicon stuff and has all the tools to do it for a while. He is quite simply the man. He has been servicing my 224x for a while and has also worked on my pcm42 and 70 with great success and reasonable pricing. Quality honest guy. He also works on 480 as well. So I have no issues about keeping my 224x it runs great and I have boost backup cards to have in case stuff does go down I can just isolate problems and ship cards to Dane for a quick fix.


As far as sound, the lexicon is unrivaled just like the 480 is. It has its own mojo and noting else, including a bricasti can replicate it. Even though the versions are different I've tried every plug on including uad and quite frankly they don't come close.

Same w bricasti. It's the best digital reverb out there now and lexis can't do what it does.

Bricasti is the best "fitting" reverb on a mix. It just fits right in. In solo, at first I was a bit underwhelmed, but it works in the mix which is the most important thing. It has super realistic spaces and more importantly (for me) it has just great reverb that works and is as pro as it gets.

The 224 on the other hand is a supernatural thing of beauty. It's extremely colored extremely pronounced and sounds great on almost anything. I've always used it for vocals but recently found it works awesome with real short times on drums for a slappy sort of sound.

Gun to my head I love the color of the 224x but if I had to have one I would pick the bricasti because it can do way more and that doesn't mean it is spread too thin. It's a miracle machine everything sounds good and you wish you had two or three.

But there's just something about that 224x it's the sweetest sounding digital reverb I've used.

The 480 is kind of like the middle ground between the two. It's cleaner, more polite, and has more use in a track than say a 224x and it is still a golden standard.

Anyway those are my opinions but its not my opinion that you can't service older stuff because you can.
Old 14th March 2015
  #14
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
Do you have the 224 non XL?

I don't know if its just me but I could've sworn when i heard them both together the 224 sounded darker than the XL version.

Weird that the Larc would cause a tonal change. Idk maybe it was the condition of the respective units
The 224 has a 20 kHz sampling rate, with a bandwidth of 8 kHz.

The 224XL has a 34.25 kHz sampling rate, with a bandwidth of 15 kHz. So it is FAR brighter than the 224.

The 224XL has all of the algorithms of the 224, but at the higher sampling rate. The 224XL also introduces the "Rich" algorithms (Rich Chamber, Rich Plate), that have a different tonality than the older 224 algorithms, and are closer to what the 480L uses. All of the 224XL algorithms have chorusing, and the 224XL Rich Plate is maybe the best reverb algorithm I have ever heard.
Old 14th March 2015
  #15
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BillSimpkins's Avatar
I think the Lexicons and the Bricasti work very well together. I "usually" pick a plate/hall on one and a room/chamber on the other, depending on the song.
The Lexicons are good at the "obvious" reverb thing and the Bricasti is great for the realistic or "not so obvious" thing ... although in the right setting it can do the obvious thing very well too.
Old 14th March 2015
  #16
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies. I'm basically happy with the rooms on the bricasti but not really the plates. I don't know what it is but they just don't sound special to me in the mix.

I'm wondering if an old lex would be the thing I'm missing. I'm not sure whether to look at the 224, the 300 or the 480.

I'm curious about the beamish guy. I'll google him.
Old 14th March 2015
  #17
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BillSimpkins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstory View Post
Thanks for the replies. I'm basically happy with the rooms on the bricasti but not really the plates. I don't know what it is but they just don't sound special to me in the mix.

I'm wondering if an old lex would be the thing I'm missing. I'm not sure whether to look at the 224, the 300 or the 480.

I'm curious about the beamish guy. I'll google him.
I would also consider the PCM 70.
Old 14th March 2015
  #18
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lemix's Avatar
I'll try to be quick and to the ( my ) point; however it's is a bit deep subject at least for me.
My love affair began many, many years ago with an MXR 01 !
Guessing early 80-ies..
Than, gradually built many ambiance/delay & reverb boxes. I am a true believer of using multiple units doing minute or drastic processing in a proper proportion.
Unfortunately, most of my current jobs have to be ITB, but what I ended up choosing as "keepers" are ;

Bricasti M7 / Lexicon 200 / Eventide H 7600 ( my 3000SE died ) and an old Yamaha REV1.
For simple straight delays , just plugins.

To the last post >> I had and quickly sold the PCM 70. I found something "cold" about it.

Bottom line..you'll need more than 1 unit.
Old 16th March 2015
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
The 224 has a 20 kHz sampling rate, with a bandwidth of 8 kHz.

The 224XL has a 34.25 kHz sampling rate, with a bandwidth of 15 kHz. So it is FAR brighter than the 224.

The 224XL has all of the algorithms of the 224, but at the higher sampling rate. The 224XL also introduces the "Rich" algorithms (Rich Chamber, Rich Plate), that have a different tonality than the older 224 algorithms, and are closer to what the 480L uses. All of the 224XL algorithms have chorusing, and the 224XL Rich Plate is maybe the best reverb algorithm I have ever heard.
Hey Sean!

I have been doing a bit of research about the 224. It predates me by a few years! One thing that I have stumbled upon is that it appears Lexicon initially sold it with a varying number of programs - it looks like you could have purchased it with 2, 4, 6, or all 8 programs in the early years. Upgrading it was simply a case of adding/swapping Eproms.
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Lexicon question for high end guys-lex-ad.jpg  
Old 17th March 2015
  #20
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Crash's Avatar
A 300 can be found fairly cheap these days and I have read arguments that it is closer to the 480 than a 224 if that means anything to you. I was lucky enough to get a 300 in a trade for an old Altec 1566, that had a bad transformer for the display. A new transformer and it was up and going. I love it.

There is a decent deal on a 480 on GC used, I believe in Atlanta you might want to check.
Old 18th March 2015
  #21
I used my 224XL in split mode, usually dual rich plate or plate/hall. That gives you two independent stereo reverbs. That was handy.

In as I fixed/modified the 224 myself, it was still a box you crossed your fingers everytime you turned it on. Eventually, I got tired of fixing/modifing it. Once I heard the M7 it was sold the next day. I have a 200 that need new software eproms. Anybody have some?

I'm more into a natural reverb that hides/blends with a track than an 'effect' reverb like the 224XL. For that, the M7 reigns supreme, it "sells the room" like no other.
Old 18th March 2015
  #22
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios View Post
Hey Sean!

I have been doing a bit of research about the 224. It predates me by a few years! One thing that I have stumbled upon is that it appears Lexicon initially sold it with a varying number of programs - it looks like you could have purchased it with 2, 4, 6, or all 8 programs in the early years. Upgrading it was simply a case of adding/swapping Eproms.
That is pretty crazy! I wonder if the intention was to "pay by the algorithm," or whether the box was released with 2 algorithms, and this was the way of dealing with 224s that were already at dealers with only 2 algorithms on board. Thanks for posting the scan!
Old 19th March 2015
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
That is pretty crazy! I wonder if the intention was to "pay by the algorithm," or whether the box was released with 2 algorithms, and this was the way of dealing with 224s that were already at dealers with only 2 algorithms on board. Thanks for posting the scan!

If I were to make an educated guess I would say it was a "pay by the algorithm" kind of deal. I found a similar retailer advertisement from early in 1979 that was offering a 4 & 8 voice version (for $7400 or $7900 respectively). I'll try and dig it out.

There is an interesting evolution within the advertising of digital reverbs. First and foremost was the EMT 250. A huge floor standing beast at $20,000 a pop ($72,000 in today's $$$). When the 224 hit the scene the advertising really played on the quality and flexibility of the system at its amazing price tag (just $26,000 in today's $$$).

These were followed by the EMT 251 in late 1980 which added a delay, echo and chorus program to the reverberation in the EMT250. Then Quad Eight System 5 hit the shelves in February of 1981 claiming to be the best sounding reverb out there with its 14khz bandwidth, which I suspect forced Lexicon to up their game - probably releasing software version 4.4 which dragged all of the options like all the programs and NVS card into the system as standard. Prior to version 4.3, the NVS card was optional.

Its not surprising Lexicon was driven to a higher sample rate within the 224 series. I just haven't quite figured out if it happened with the release of the 224x, the or somewhere in between.

Interesting time for technology!
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Old 19th March 2015
  #24
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T_R_S's Avatar
I own the following:

480 amazing on gtrs and vocal

960 don't discount this you get 4 independent stereo reverbs! It's sounds great on anything - good buy because you get a very flexible 4 reverbs reverbs in one box. Great midi implimentation for automation and session recalls . moving fader larc nice!

PCM70 a good only standby awesome on gtrs

PCM96 amazing choruses nice plug-in for session recalls

PCM80 great reverb for chorus reverbs - nice integration with PT as well

Bricasti good clean plain reverb it's just a reverb no fancy effects nice PT intgration for recalls too.

Eventide DSP 4000 it's a Eventide! wild FX not found in any plug-in made

Eventide H3000 same here too every studio should have one or two

TC System 6000 awesome killer reverb. clean reverbs plus so much more.
The best clean reverb hands down (sorry Casey!)
Old 3rd April 2015
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios View Post
Hey Sean!

I have been doing a bit of research about the 224. It predates me by a few years! One thing that I have stumbled upon is that it appears Lexicon initially sold it with a varying number of programs - it looks like you could have purchased it with 2, 4, 6, or all 8 programs in the early years. Upgrading it was simply a case of adding/swapping Eproms.
Anyone know who sells EPROMS with all 8 programs on it for a 224? I have the original 224 non XL.
Old 3rd April 2015
  #26
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I've used the 480L extensively, but not the 224. The 480L is the "classic" reverb of the past 25 years...undoubtedly the most-used reverb on pop vocals during that time. I like it, but my favorite digital reverb on vocals seem to come from a different era: the early 80s. Most of these vocals were done on the 224 or the AMS RMX 16 or the QRS. Of these three, I've only used the RMS 16. It is NOT particularly versatile, but it can sound amazing...sometimes way better than a 480L. I really like the "Room B0" setting on this unit...fantastic for vocals and drums. Everyone talks about the "ambience" setting or the "Non-lin" setting, but I almost never use these, preferring the "Room B0" setting and the first "hall" setting for longer verbs. Think of Phil Collins' vocals on "In the Air Tonight"...
Old 3rd April 2015
  #27
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by burns46824 View Post
I've used the 480L extensively, but not the 224. The 480L is the "classic" reverb of the past 25 years...undoubtedly the most-used reverb on pop vocals during that time. I like it, but my favorite digital reverb on vocals seem to come from a different era: the early 80s. Most of these vocals were done on the 224 or the AMS RMX 16 or the QRS.
Or the 224XL. I consider this a very different reverb than the 224, due to higher sampling rate and the "Rich" algorithms.

Quote:
Of these three, I've only used the RMS 16. It is NOT particularly versatile, but it can sound amazing...sometimes way better than a 480L. I really like the "Room B0" setting on this unit...fantastic for vocals and drums. Everyone talks about the "ambience" setting or the "Non-lin" setting, but I almost never use these, preferring the "Room B0" setting and the first "hall" setting for longer verbs. Think of Phil Collins' vocals on "In the Air Tonight"...
The RMX16 sounds weird and metallic when listened to in isolation. Put it into a mix, and things just melt into this beautiful 3D space. Lots of depth BEHIND the speakers.

Last edited by seancostello; 3rd April 2015 at 10:53 PM.. Reason: reducing reduncancy from an earlier post of mine in this thread
Old 4th April 2015
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldie wave View Post
Anyone know who sells EPROMS with all 8 programs on it for a 224? I have the original 224 non XL.

Try Steve @ Benden Audio in the UK.

Lexicon 224/224X Reverberator restoration by Benden Sound Technology

If your 224 doesn't have an NVS card, you will only be able to run software up to version 4.3. If it has an NVS card, 4.4 is the most recent available.
Old 6th April 2015
  #29
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K. Matafonov's Avatar
 

I like 960 a lot. It it has invisible and air-like sound that make everything "sound like a record" when added to taste. Especially rooms! But it works for me not as "heavy verb that audible everywhere" - I use it moderately - it's my transparent secret weapon.

I post some samples (Russian vocalist BTW :-) - but they can be useless because you need to check this machine in the mix: everything became better with Lex and stereofield too, it can glue instruments and important thing that different algos REALLY MAKES different perspective in the mix. So, you can easily choose Short Room, Plate and Large Hall and create 3D perspective. And nothing became blur or dull - regardless how many instruments you sending to it.

Nothing can replace it for me - really. I was trying to replace it with UAD Plates and 224 UAD Lex, Softube Spring, Lexicon PCM & D Verb and and.. - great reverbs but different effect.

And it's rock solid.

So, I am looking for Bricasti add-on now. 480 is too heavy-sounding for music that I mix and can turn into silent piece of metal easily.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/f1zu71yb0i...20960.zip?dl=0
Old 7th April 2015
  #30
There's a definite family resemblance to the 224 / 224XL / 480L and, to a slightly lesser degree, the 200, that means if you like one you'll like the others. The 224XL and 480L are more configurable and have dozens of parameters to tweak to your heart's content. The Larc makes that easy and it's a great interface

The 224 is perhaps a bit more characterful that the 224XL but it doesn't have the super-open top end or gazillion parameters of the later units. For that reason a 224 will always be a good addition to a later reverb as it'll always sound different. It has a simpler Larc which, again, is great

Nick Froome
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