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New Ultra High End Gear Condenser Microphones
Old 28th April 2015
  #31
Lives for gear
 
AudioGaff's Avatar
Lots of guys with great gear, plugs etc... So +1 on spending time, money and effort on the room as that is missing for many trying to do the same thing. A great room, not just a good room besides always making you smile and grin with joy makes it so much more easier to work in and spend many pleasing hours in.

If your getting the UAD TB OCTO and one of your goals is avoid rack gear, I think you should consider one of the new UAD Quad Black Apollo units so that you have the option to track with real time UAD plugs, as well as be able to monitor with UAD plugs in real time such as for effects. Plus, the Apollo UAD DSP can be combined with the UAD TB OCTO DSP when mixing with the ability to further upgrade to expand I/O and DSP if needed.
Old 28th April 2015
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldi View Post
Lynched! Let me be the first to tell you that you can't just plug 10 tracks up your arse for good sound. If you had a more scientific method of testing, i'd love to know what it was that gave you this absurd conclusion.
Concerning summing:

1. Analog components distort the signal AND add noise. This is another way of saying it degrades the signal.
2. Digital doesn't distort nor add noise (in anywhere perceived level that is). It's just pure mathematics, ie. "perfect". If you add 2+2 it doesn't suddenly become 3 or 5.
Old 28th April 2015
  #33
Gear Addict
 
softshoe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraku View Post
Concerning summing:

1. Analog components distort the signal AND add noise. This is another way of saying it degrades the signal.
2. Digital doesn't distort nor add noise (in anywhere perceived level that is). It's just pure mathematics, ie. "perfect". If you add 2+2 it doesn't suddenly become 3 or 5.
Except digital audio will produce a different solution when summing the same audio at 44.1kHz vs 192kHz. Kind of weird for a "perfect" mathematical system.
Old 28th April 2015
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
musicalnyc's Avatar
 

A great room starts with a great location.
Old 28th April 2015
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by softshoe View Post
Except digital audio will produce a different solution when summing the same audio at 44.1kHz vs 192kHz. Kind of weird for a "perfect" mathematical system.
Depends on what you mean by different solution. I need more specific bits of information what you mean so I can comment on what you said. Meanwhile this will do:

The audible frequencies end up being exactly the same with both sample rates.

Last edited by kraku; 28th April 2015 at 11:03 PM..
Old 28th April 2015
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Fast_Fingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnluke1 View Post
Hey GS! I recently came into some money and i can get A lot of high end gear so I'm switching out my entire set up and building a new room and was hoping you guys could help point me in some right directions.

I produce EDM,pop,hip hop and reggae. I only need 2 ins one for vocals and one for a electric guitar DI. My current setup is a apogee duet2,manley ref c and a bae1073 with Yamaha Hs80ms which i absolutely hate! thank god its going now!

Im currently looking at the antelope eclipse with the 10m but would also like to get into summing so I was thinking about at least 16 channels of high end D/A to feed into a summing mixer.

Which summing mixer should i look into for the Genres that i do and is a summing mixer even really necessary for the stuff i work on. Is antelope eclipse a good choice? what 16 d/a converters should would you guys recommend.
Listen to the following, and go off that. Tape simulators (Anamod, Portico 5042) are also an option, but the most flexible option I'd recommend would be a high end bus compressor to shape your sound. DIY Options are less than $100 if you are unsure, and the Folcrom is the most flexible summing box out there (if you have a good stereo preamp).

Todd Burke is a Record Engineer (Blog): Summing Mixer Shootout

If the difference isn't enough for you, I'd stick with a high quality 2 channel ADDA Converter from a good manufacturer like Forsell, Benchmark, Lynx, RME, Lavry, or Prism. I'm assuming your acoustics are perfect.

Quote:
On to monitors. I DO plan on visiting the US to listen in some demo rooms. Barefoot seems to be a big thing here and i have heard them but I don't think i like them very much to be honest. Maybe ATC? or PMC? I dont think it makes much sense discussing monitors any further since its such a subjective matter.
However i would like some recommendations on what to check out.
I would like some big full range far field mastering type monitors such as ATC 150's or 200 or augspurgers and a good pair of near fields (i have no idea what to look at here)
ADAM, Eve Audio are other ones to check out. I'm sure the sales rep will have a collection to choose from. Get your favorite set of reference music (have it span genres and loudnesses) and have a good time.

Quote:
Other than that I already ordered a new mac pro ,UAD2 thunderbolt octo ultimate since i don't want racks upon racks of gear to worry about or maintain, Sony c800g and and a manley voxbox.

And yes i do make a living off of this, not nearly as much as im spending on this new gear i admit but its what i would rather spend this money on!

Am i missing anything?

Can't wait for replies heh
If you do vocals frequently, a Bricasti M7.
Old 30th April 2015
  #37
Monitors -if I had your budget id be demoing amphion one18 or one15,
Unity audio superrock and spiral groove studio one
Old 10th May 2015
  #38
Gear Head
 
SeveBC's Avatar
Acoustics advice and ting....

  1. Don't locate your studio space near underground rail or overground rail and be aware of main roads with heavy traffic especially lorries. A few studios have closed due to trains amongst a number of reasons (e.g. Cream) and underground train rumble has necessitated room within room floating floors mounted on helical coil springs e.g. Air Studios Oxford Street.
  2. Ensure that all building services mechanical plant adjoining or serving your studio spaces are efficiently isolated using high efficiency helical coil spring vibration isolators i.e. your air-conditioning units needs high efficiency vibration isolation between unit and support frame. You don't want structure borne noise and vibration marring an otherwise well planned studio so you efficiently isolate the noise source. Likewise hangers for pipework. If the mechanical services company installers say you don't need them or offer you Tico pads they are talking b###ocks (cojones). Tico has insufficient deflection to provide high efficiency vibration isolation as do rubber in shear mounts. The helical coil springs sit on 2mm rubber to prevent transmission along the spring but it is the spring that provides the necessary deflection. Any lift motors may also need vibration isolation. Support beams, especially those relatively weak small cross-section items deflect significantly thereby reducing the theoretical static deflection of any isolation system supported by that beam: hence the need for helical coil springs rather than rubber pads or rubber-in-sheer mounts.
  3. If your studio design includes a ducted air system then you also need packaged attenuators, both intake and extract etc as a minimum. You'll probably also require crosstalk attenuation between rooms.
  4. Work out detailed electrical provision and mic tie lines etc. prior to acoustic treatment.
  5. Ensure you have design and implementation provision for both external / internal noise break-in / breakout prevention and internal room acoustic treatments.
  6. For monitor selection you need the monitors to reveal detail and bad mixes rather than flatter so find some commercial releases and your own tracking, demos etc that are sorely lacking as well as great mixes. If you are going big you need effective bass trapping design and implementation. I recommend taking a B&K precision sound level meter setup* [I have access to such instrumentation thanks to Acoustical Control Engineers Ltd / Belair Research Ltd].(*test set, microphone, calibrated noise source) and an audio test CD e.g. Canford Audio quick check to test the demo room to establish what the demo room acoustics are actually doing to the monitor audio. You can hire B&K instrumentation and all the measuring education information needed is available on the B&K website, through B&K courses and via amazon. Invest to test if you're spending mucho dinero! You will then subsequently be able to tune your room acoustics accurately by rehiring a B&K precision sound level meter setup.
  7. Test monitors with various sources including human voice, classical piano, Bach organ (Bass in your face plus on quite a few 50s 60s UK recordings you can clearly hear traffic rumble) and electronic instruments / guitar you know well. Take your Sennheiser HD800 headphones as a comparison benchmark.
  8. How will your monitors be mounted? Soffit or Stands? Freestanding ATCs like Black Box Ltd Stands - the ones in all the ATC promotional photos (other heavy stable stands are available). I have the Black Box stands which offer partial decoupling and am saving for the necessary acoustic treatment and monitors! Smaller monitors work well in smaller rooms but don't give good client!
  9. Budget for some real electronic instruments and other sound sources, studio valve amps, processor pedals and rack processors e.g. Eventide H8000FW, Bricasti Reverb if your want 'realistic' spaces, high quality compressors and EQ. People use analogue processors because they really do add audibly pleasing quality. My nicer bits include Manley Backbone DB25 (it's just a switcher!), Manley TNT, API 3124m, APA Juggernaut, TL Audio C1 Valve Compressor, Millennia Media TD-1, TCL-2 and NSEQ-2, Urei 545 Parametric, Buzz Audio Tonic, Eventide H8000FW (high quality audio design) Myteks into ATC SPA2-200P amp and small Quested monitors, Grado GS1000 and Sennheiser HD25-1, various synths, electronic and real drums, guitar etc including Simmons, Tama Starclassic Bubinga Select Made in Japan Drum kit (Marbled Green Metallic), Moog voyager select and ancillaries, Ekdahl Polygamist, Lovetone, Diamond, Roger Mayer, Analogue Systems, Serge, DSI Prophet 12, Roland Juno 60, Korg, Formula Sound, Orange, Emery Sound, Fender.

No one has mentioned the Manley TNT as a hugely adaptable high quality mic pre and a pair is even better but spendy. I'm saving for Neve 1084s in a rack. Mytek 8x192 offers 8 channel ADDA and summing plus headphone out, low jitter specs <10picoseconds, multiple interface cards including Pro Tools, USB, Firewire and 7 BNC per unit for wordclock. Don't know how they compare price or audio wise with Antelope. Both are high quality, its the interfacing options etc in addition to the audio quality that led me to select the Myteks over Prism.

Purchase more quality mics such as DPA, Brauner, Microtech Geffel M300 or Schoeps CMC-64 Matched Pairs. Always buy quality over quantity and just add quality items from suppliers like Larking Audio, MJQ studio sales, VEMIA, KMR, Funky Junk, Vintage King when you have the 'need' and the price is right.

You might even want to venture into modular Eurocrack or one of the other formats for sound mangling mayhem.

Thunderbolt 3 (Intel & Apple) is going to be introduced 2016 and its connector is incompatible with previous Thunderbolt 1 and 2. It doubles data throughput over version 2 and the related motherboards will feature significant upgrades over current top lines in Mac Pro or X99. Invest in data backup after Thunderbolt 3 arrives for greater longevity. Magma or Sonnettech offer quality solutions and will continue to do so. I use the latter but am awaiting thunderbolt 3 before I upgrade my computer and data ancillaries.

Hope some of the above is useful.

Last edited by SeveBC; 18th May 2015 at 05:44 PM.. Reason: Clarification
Old 10th May 2015
  #39
Lives for gear
 
KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnluke1 View Post

As for monitors thanks for the suggestions The amphion does look interesting and i'll love to listen to a pair. I'm working on getting my US visa right now so i can fly up and listen to all the more analog gear i've never heard before.
Amphion is made in Finland. For EDM I would think the Two 18s but if you are going with some other larger midfield or soffit monitors perhaps the One 18 as a contrast E mail Anssi ( owner of the company) and ask him. Amphion Loudspeakers

Here is the web sight Home | Amphion
Email them and they can tell you the closest place to you, or probably even ship you a pair to audition . I would suggest doing this in your finished room if you want to know what they will really sound like.


And just incase you haven't read this thread you should probably read the whole thing

Amphion... Beautiful
Old 12th May 2015
  #40
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnluke1 View Post
Hey I'm actually pretty happy with the sound quality i'm achieving I just think some new high end gear would be really exciting and inspiring. The business would pay for all this gear (eventually)
Hi

Just browsing the thread.... there are some good suggestions here (except Kraku's first comment re mixing in the box (!) but the other points are good).
It would help if you mentioned where you were based and what sort of budget you could manage.

Folk could fire away with suggestions of possible products and popping into a Vintage King demo room, etc., but if you are thousands of miles away the suggestions carry little weight.

Give us a little more information please....

Old 12th May 2015
  #41
Lives for gear
I would start by building the best possible room, and literally buy used the other equipment with whatever money was left. Outboard and mics is all down to taste, but a great room sounds great.
Old 12th May 2015
  #42
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syra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraku View Post
I'm probably going to get lynched for saying some of this, but:

1. Summing mixers don't add to sound quality. At most they take away from it. Sum digitally if you want best sound quality.
YOU SIR ... ... ...are correct.

Indeed analog does take away from the original signal. Every single piece of analog equipment no matter how clean will change the original source. Ever recorded to a tape machine? Far from pure indeed.

So the good news is that you are correct. Scientifically speaking, purest is the best. The bad news is that we don't experience music in a scientific way. And sonic artifacts provide excitement that is fuel to the emotional impact of music.

So you win. But in the end you lose...
Old 13th May 2015
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by syra View Post
YOU SIR ... ... ...are correct.
The bad news is that we don't experience music in a scientific way. And sonic artifacts provide excitement that is fuel to the emotional impact of music.

So you win. But in the end you lose...
Very well stated Syra. To the people who are suggesting that this chap spend all his money on a room, you realise he says he is mostly doing EDM, Hip Hop, and other forms of music which don't depend on being done in a great sounding studio room? He said 2 INPUTS!

Get a big spacious CR with nice trapping and a good size vocal / occasional over dub studio space [not some tiny vocal booth closet], but do get some quality gear with a vibe. You are going to be in the CR alot and want it to look, feel, and sound good. Artists like interesting spaces that inspire them. As far as gear- Clean you can do ITB, but vibe is much easier with good outboard gear, and transducers are often the most obvious audio changes you can make. For EDM, Hip Hop, and Reggae you need some serious clean LF, so proper room design, and good speakers are nice. A decent mic collection and some good pre's and comp's would be in order. To me the point of summing OTB is vibe, color, and character... just sayin'
Geoff's question about budget and location are the other very good things to start from and we could all help you if you were more specific. Plenty of good places to hear gear on the East Coast and Mid West as well if you don't make it to LA.

Try things out, experiment, have fun, make excellent music!

Best-
Jonathan

Last edited by [email protected]; 13th May 2015 at 02:00 AM..
Old 13th May 2015
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

Just browsing the thread.... there are some good suggestions here (except Kraku's first comment re mixing in the box (!) but the other points are good).
My comment wasn't about mixing in the box. It was purely about summing in the box.
Old 13th May 2015
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by syra View Post
YOU SIR ... ... ...are correct.

Indeed analog does take away from the original signal. Every single piece of analog equipment no matter how clean will change the original source. Ever recorded to a tape machine? Far from pure indeed.

So the good news is that you are correct. Scientifically speaking, purest is the best. The bad news is that we don't experience music in a scientific way. And sonic artifacts provide excitement that is fuel to the emotional impact of music.

So you win. But in the end you lose...
Tons of great sounding music has been done both ways, i.e. with "pure scientific" summing and analog summing. Engineers should recognize this and use whichever method suits their current material best. Staying faithfully on one side or the other is limiting your options and what you could potentially do if/when needed.

That being said, clean signal and sound is really important to sound engineers. It's the reason why you:
- ...spend lots of money on high end audio converters.
- ...record digitally.
- ...want to have excellent acoustics in your room.
- ...buy expensive studio monitors.
- ...worry about the noise floor.
- ...don't listen to your tracks form a cassette deck anymore.

With that in mind, it's easier to see why people use analog gear. It's for the effect they give. I.e. they change the sound from the original. They act like subtle effect boxes. It's a whole different topic if this effect is pleasing/useful/wanted/etc. for person X.

The coloring effect has to be deliberate. If it's not, it's like forcing guitarists to use distortion on every guitar track they play. In other words: they are just tools and techniques for coloring the sound and they should be used as such when/if needed.

Because of this, it is useful to make the distinction between clean and character gear. This includes how you do your summing. If you want to have as much depth and separation as possible, consider digital. If you want to have your sounds gel a little more seamlessly and add something extra to the signal, consider analog signals.

It all boils down to the taste of the engineer I guess. Some like the cleanest signal possible. Others prefer little bit of extra on the signal. Some even prefer lo-fi. They all have their places in the art of making music. Just be sure to select the tools for the right reason, i.e. what's the goal with the material you're working on.

Last edited by kraku; 13th May 2015 at 11:04 AM..
Old 13th May 2015
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraku View Post
My comment wasn't about mixing in the box. It was purely about summing in the box.
Hi

What's the difference between mixing signals together and summing signals together?

Pedantic, I know, but begs a response....



PS With hindsight, answering my own question, both words imply mixing together a group of signals. With "mixing" you can vary the choice of levels and and effects in the mix. With summing, you throw them all together and hope for the best...heh

Last edited by Geoff_T; 13th May 2015 at 05:55 PM..
Old 13th May 2015
  #47
Lives for gear
 
MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnluke1 View Post
YES! a custom room is being planned right now 33x47 feet control room

What small high end monitors to check out?
A u47ish tone mic could be useful though.
thats a big room...why small monitors ? check out the Genelec 8260

the new Neumann U47fet is a spectacular mic...no wannabe clones needed

Just do the Symphony as a 32x32
Old 13th May 2015
  #48
Lives for gear
Hate to be Debbie Downer, but coming here to ask how to spend money is like going to a highway overpass and asking the group assembled what drugs you should buy.

How old are you? What are your life goals? Do you understand the miracle of compound interest (i.e., the ability to get even more amazing gear a few years down the road, after what you're about to splash out on is long obsolete)? How likely is it that you'll ever turn a profit in this horrible industry? Do you have a support system if **** goes pear-shaped?

I'd advise that you spend several hours reading the reddit personal finance board. Then evaluate whether you have a better understanding between "want" and "need".

And this is advice from a hypocrite, which is the best advice of all.

Also, buy used!
Old 13th May 2015
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraku View Post
If you want to have as much depth and separation as possible, consider digital.
Again, not sure why you're harping on this. Not only is this not true, but it's not a great help since OP is probably digital already. Just state what you like, not what you don't like. And we'll all coexist happily ever after?
Old 13th May 2015
  #50
Old 13th May 2015
  #51
Lives for gear
 
carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

What's the difference between mixing signals together and summing signals together?

Pedantic, I know, but begs a response....



PS With hindsight, answering my own question, both words imply mixing together a group of signals. With "mixing" you can vary the choice of levels and and effects in the mix. With summing, you throw them all together and hope for the best...heh
Great answer Geoff
Old 15th May 2015
  #52
I do all of my mixing/summing ITB; however, the best masters I've ever heard were done either OTB or hybrid.

I'd spend most of my money on room treatment and monitors. PSI or ATC nearfields and Quested or PMC mains might be good suggestions, but go with your own ears.

A properly treated room is one of the greatest pleasures in life.
Old 15th May 2015
  #53
Gear Nut
1) Treated Room
2) RME Madi HDSPe card OR Prism Orpheus/Titan...Lynx...Apogee
3) UAD Octo Card
4) Antelope Orion, SPL Madison, SSL Alphalink MX (Don't need if not using MADI card)
5) SSL Sigma or Neve 8816 or Rascal Tonebuss or Phoenix Nicerizer or Thermionic Little Red Bustard
6) Native Instruments Maschine or MPC Rennaissance
7) Genelec or Focal Twin6
That should keep you busy for a while
Old 15th May 2015
  #54
Lives for gear
 

I personally took a bit of a punt on my ADA converter upgrade and bought an SPL Madison and had Black Lion Audio modify it. The level of detail it captures still amazes me, price not even entering the equation. I know of a few guys who are using Madisons without any mods and are happy too. This is a 16 channel MADI converter though, so you still need an interface between the MADI and PC. I'm using an RME MADI FX for that and the DSP mixer and driver efficiency and stability are great. You'd be hard pressed to do better on a Windows platform. If you do a lot of soft synth production in real time with MIDI/USB keyboards etc, you will pat yourself on the back choosing a card like this. I am running 64 sample buffers during production and can play multiple layers from orchestral libraries at around a 5ms round trip with zero glitches.

The reason why I've mentioned these aspects first is because there's no point having an awesome room and ultra high end anything if you can't produce because you're constantly interrupted by system hangs, glitches, artefacts, and the list of headaches associated with latency sensitive processing.

The guys who said SLOW DOWN and introduce one or two new toys into your new studio at a time are on the money. If you start buying **** just because the idea of it is attractive, you'll end up losing a lot of money through constantly recycling gear you realise you don't like/need etc. Don't blow your money in one go like that.

I'll try to avoid opening up a can of worms about summing mixers, but I will add a couple of things. Summing in analogue should be a choice made mostly based on workflow. If you have an empty studio and a wad of cash, a summer should very low down on the list unless you know exactly what your workflow will be ahead of time and have planned your patchbays etc. around one. That being said, you can find a lot of summing mixers that double as monitor controllers, headphone amps, etc. so you can get a lot more value from one that way. If I were you, I'd leave a summing mixer decision until well after you've been working in your new studio. See if your experience takes you down the same path still.

FYI, I use a summer, but it compliments my hybrid workflow. I have two 10 slot 500 series racks that I can quickly and easily patch onto any output before it normals to summer and finally the mastering AD. And I can tell you now, I still use hardware as inserts (not using the summer) a LOT more than I use the summer. The summer comes out only after my mix has reached its final stages and is ready to be polished.

Anyway, in a nutshell, I suggest researching/investing in this order:

Studio build/acoustics (including furniture! trust me the furniture oversight has cost me months in my build haha)
Monitors (nearfields for precision, mains for energy, mid forward mono reference)
Audio interface/ADA conversion (2 inputs will get old quick once your high end control room starts attracting more clients, assuming you're not only producing for yourself)
Your 2-bus hardware chain (I put this after ADA because with bad ADA, you can't milk the pennies from this hardware)

I'd stop there and give yourself a lot of time getting familiar with everything. Put the left over funds in a high interest account, lock it down for a year. THEN revisit the idea and see what it is you are really needing. Maybe it'll be a DAW control surface because you are sick of tediously automating or adjusting everything by mouse and keyboard. Maybe it'll be more analogue signal processors. Maybe you'll want a high end microphone locker. A second room for recording! Who knows.


Take it easy.


EDIT: Had to edit in case it was unclear. You should definitely do your homework on a good monitor CONTROLLER for your studio. This would fall on equal hierarchy between conversion and speakers. No point having good conversion or good speakers if what you are hearing is distorted, unstable or simply not delivering to your ears what is really there.

Last edited by zigziglar; 15th May 2015 at 06:18 AM.. Reason: Monitor controller
Old 15th May 2015
  #55
Some of the best dollars I have spent was on mics from Dave at Advanced Audio. Acquired the C12, 47VE, CM67, CM87 and going to sneak up on a 251 at some point. Dave is amazing and these mics are just so great, can't say enough great stuff about these. At $379 his CM87 is one of the best bang for the buck small-studio mics on the market in my personal opinion. I use it almost daily, here's a VO clip from a couple days ago: Playing: bunny.mp3 - picosong

I would not hesitate to use it for rap, country, rock, etc. Any place you might use an 87. It's not an 87. But it's a great mic that makes me money. Cheers and best on your upgrades.
Old 23rd May 2015
  #56
This is an old thread but, I kind of had this happen and I learned a few things. The most important one is that you should take your time buying gear if you are not experienced. I never really know a piece until I use it for a while.
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