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The love hate relationship with Genelec
Old 1st October 2018
  #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Everything sounds good until you hear something better.
Should be the Gearslutz tagline!
Old 1st October 2018
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
All I'm saying is that I'm reading quite strong opinions on the matter, yet when the tests happen under controlled (scientific) circumstances, the differences seem to evaporate, which is something to consider.
+1

Harman (Revel, Jbl, Infinity) has a room to test speakers in ABX.

And as you said, the difference when you don't know "who is" are little.

but

I have two K+H O300 and two KH 420. At 74 db calibration level the O300
clip. The KH420 at 82 db doesn't clip.

The price is a difference easyly evaluable without abx.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
All I'm saying is that I'm reading quite strong opinions on the matter, yet when the tests happen under controlled (scientific) circumstances, the differences seem to evaporate, which is something to consider.
From my experience it depends what is causing the phase shift and at which frequencies.

Many electronics/speaker/room related problems will often show up mainly in the phase plots with only subtle hints to the existence of an issue in the other kinds of measurements you can take. This isn't audibility as a result of phase shift, but the phase irregularities are usually an indicator of another kind of issue.

At non-bass frequencies it makes sense that absolute 'phase-only-distortions' aren't necessarily audible as the timing shift is extremely (!!!) negligible.

However at low frequencies it would seem very obvious (to me anyway) that phase shift is going to cause some pretty serious issues as the cycle time for a full wave is actually quite significant and therefore the effect of X amount of phase shift is going to be far more audible. At 50 Hz (a common bass drum frequency), 10 msec of additional group delay (180deg of phase shift at 50 Hz) from a smaller speaker is not uncommon. Try listening to what 10msec of delay does to a the musical feel of a 909 kick (a descending sine wave) or the relationship between a drummer's kick drum and a bass guitar. Is it audible on a pipe organ recording?

This is just theoretical and I agree that correctly executed scientific experiments are leaving the topic up for debate, but there is some information out there if you look with mixed conclusions. My experience so far is that speakers with very low measurements of group delay seem to give much better renditions of bass drums and other fast-paced bassy stuff on certain kinds of music, but not on others.

Here are some articles which show it's not quite as clear cut as you might think:
AES E-Library >> On the Audibility of Midrange Phase Distortion in Audio Systems
AES E-Library >> The Subjective Importance of Uniform Group Delay at Low Frequencies
AES E-Library >> On the Audibility of Group Delay Distortion at Low Frequencies
Old 2nd October 2018
  #424
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I'm on the "love" side with genelec, I btw really like GLM 3.0 .
Old 2nd October 2018
  #425
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexK View Post
From my experience it depends what is causing the phase shift and at which frequencies.

Many electronics/speaker/room related problems will often show up mainly in the phase plots with only subtle hints to the existence of an issue in the other kinds of measurements you can take. This isn't audibility as a result of phase shift, but the phase irregularities are usually an indicator of another kind of issue.

At non-bass frequencies it makes sense that absolute 'phase-only-distortions' aren't necessarily audible as the timing shift is extremely (!!!) negligible.

However at low frequencies it would seem very obvious (to me anyway) that phase shift is going to cause some pretty serious issues as the cycle time for a full wave is actually quite significant and therefore the effect of X amount of phase shift is going to be far more audible. At 50 Hz (a common bass drum frequency), 10 msec of additional group delay (180deg of phase shift at 50 Hz) from a smaller speaker is not uncommon. Try listening to what 10msec of delay does to a the musical feel of a 909 kick (a descending sine wave) or the relationship between a drummer's kick drum and a bass guitar. Is it audible on a pipe organ recording?

This is just theoretical and I agree that correctly executed scientific experiments are leaving the topic up for debate, but there is some information out there if you look with mixed conclusions. My experience so far is that speakers with very low measurements of group delay seem to give much better renditions of bass drums and other fast-paced bassy stuff on certain kinds of music, but not on others.

Here are some articles which show it's not quite as clear cut as you might think:
AES E-Library >> On the Audibility of Midrange Phase Distortion in Audio Systems
AES E-Library >> The Subjective Importance of Uniform Group Delay at Low Frequencies
AES E-Library >> On the Audibility of Group Delay Distortion at Low Frequencies

In all fairness those articles are quite old, and substantial research has been performed since then (one might hope that's always the case). Not that I'm discarding them of course.
Yet, I would argue that below the Schroeder frequency of the room, the loudspeaker response correlates to the room as minimum-phase. Meaning that phase or transient anomalies will show up in the amplitude response. If the response is smooth and flat, there are no audible issues.
Under controlled circumstances, it is apparently possible to discern slight differences (albeit no preferences) with relative phase of systems. Please note these systems need to have no other issues to begin with in order to do so. My conclusion is therefore, before one endeavours to tackle the lineair phase quest, first make sure the other, very audible, problems are tackled. After that .. by all means if it makes a difference to you.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #426
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Oh yes of course if the room is a mess then there is not much to be gained from a speaker with low group delay - the room will destroy the timing of your signal at low frequencies if it’s all over the place.

But I still maintain that once your room is up to a certain standard (which isn’t difficult to achieve) that you’ll start to notice the difference between smeared and faster speakers at low frequencies...
Old 2nd October 2018
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
This is not monitor's fault. It is a room or setup related issue. Having just a slight dip in the 80-120Hz region due to SBIR might affect highs appear to upfront. Believe me, in an optimal room or setup none of these monitors sound like you described. I know you like Questeds, which are great, but heavily rolled-off in the highs. Even if they experience the same acustical problems, they will be less prone to be too bright, because with 5dB dip in 80-120Hz the highs will not stand out that much, because they are not flat to begin with.

It can be an argument how some prefers flat and others prefer tilted response, but the fact is that Genelecs set up correctly have none of the issues you mentioned here.
Genelec have never sounded that natural to me either, with the exception of some of their older models. Everyone hears differently and you can't just blame the room or acoustics- most people here are professionals giving their opinion. In the same room a comparison with other speakers is equally as valid.

There is no "best". It's just what works for you.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
Genelec have never sounded that natural to me either, with the exception of some of their older models. Everyone hears differently and you can't just blame the room or acoustics- most people here are professionals giving their opinion. In the same room a comparison with other speakers is equally as valid.

There is no "best". It's just what works for you.
I agree, there is no best. It is just that in good conditions all good speakers sound much more alike than not, especually when positioned at the same place and taking into consideration their SPL capability.
And it is not easy to assess speakers per se as usually we are more evaluating room+speaker integration. Have worked numerous times with awful sounding ATCs SCM150s in a commercial room and have also whitnessed the best audio experience with SCMs 110 in Northward FTB room. So what does this tell in general? That room will influence the performance in to great extent to be able to evaluate speakers on their own.

Whatever we say regarding particular speakers is what we experience in given room. Usually I dislike Amphions, but regularly work in one room where they really shine. In my room Genelecs sound as natural as it gets, more so than other speakers I have tried. So usually speaking about speakers is only explaining our subjective cobservation given the conditions we have.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #429
Gear Nut
 

Please, people. Watch this video before commenting on loudspeakers and how they correlate to listening environments.
YouTube
Old 3rd October 2018
  #430
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Please, people. Watch this video before commenting on loudspeakers and how they correlate to listening environments.
YouTube
I like the scientific approach, the double blind subjective measurements and the idea of being able to measure a loudspeaker, making results that can be trusted (to a great extent) - The "Spinorama" is an interesting concept.

::
Mads
Old 4th October 2018
  #431
Gear Maniac
 

I demoed some really small 8000 series speakers and they had a good sound.
Old 7th October 2018
  #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
This is not monitor's fault. It is a room or setup related issue. Having just a slight dip in the 80-120Hz region due to SBIR might affect highs appear to upfront. Believe me, in an optimal room or setup none of these monitors sound like you described. I know you like Questeds, which are great, but heavily rolled-off in the highs.
In todays world of sharp, glassy monitors, Quested may seem to be "rolled-off" in the highs, but in reality, they sound just flat, natural. There are many other rooms I heard various monitors (incl. Genelecs) and the sound is always the same (and not only for my ears)
Old 7th October 2018
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
In todays world of sharp, glassy monitors, Quested may seem to be "rolled-off" in the highs, but in reality, they sound just flat, natural. There are many other rooms I heard various monitors (incl. Genelecs) and the sound is always the same (and not only for my ears)
No, they are rolled off in actual anechoic measurements and even more so in the real world scenario. I am nit saying it is something wrong with it. They are great monitors, but definitely not flat. The flatter the speaker is in a room, the more it accurately tells you what you have in your material. Of it is rolled off, it might sound prettier to you, but it reflects the actual recording less.
Old 27th October 2018
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
As Jantex mentioned, Geithains aren’t sealed and the D&D 8C and Kii3 do not come close to playing at this level (even with the BXT). Even the largest Geithain stops at 117dB-122dB. This speaker goes to 131dB. That’s a massive difference.

As for the Barefoot mm12, Barefoot refuses to publish numbers but an 87L sealed cabinet with dual 12” woofers powered by 1500W class D power is not going to produce anywhere near this Genelec either.

The thing with Bass Reflex is one octave above port tuning, the speaker acts like a sealed box. And much like sub positioning, at large wavelengths, the “group delay” of these lowest frequencies has minimal impact to the sound.
Just saw this. KiiAudio engineer did tell me the BXT module could give Kii Three another 10dB headroom, just FYI
Old 27th October 2018
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
In todays world of sharp, glassy monitors, Quested may seem to be "rolled-off" in the highs, but in reality, they sound just flat, natural. There are many other rooms I heard various monitors (incl. Genelecs) and the sound is always the same (and not only for my ears)
Last time I heard Quested monitors they were indeed rolled off in the highs.. or at least that's how they sounded to me. Dark.

.. and that was a multi million dollar studio with pristine acoustics. So yeah, I agree with Jantex here.
Old 27th November 2018
  #436
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Ilkka's Avatar
 

Genelec S360 operating manual: https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...ing_manual.pdf

Genelec 7382 operating manual: https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...7382_opman.pdf

Both include full specifications and detailed measurement data.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Please, people. Watch this video before commenting on loudspeakers and how they correlate to listening environments.
YouTube
Thank you for that. It has given me so much food for thought that it has completely changed the way I think about sound reproduction. As a recovering audiophile I have come to the professional side to seek what I am looking for. Yet it seems there is confusion on both sides.

Is there a separate thread somewhere to discuss this. If not I will create one. Discussion about that video seems IMHO far more important than any discussion about any particular monitor or brand.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #438
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Thank you. Even though you deleted it, I have a record of your links in my email notification.
Old 22nd January 2019
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgan1563 View Post
Thank you. Even though you deleted it, I have a record of your links in my email notification.
Hello,

the creative destruction....

IMHO, I am not sure GS is the right place for this discussion. You have Diyaudio (maybe you know)

Loudspeakers - diyAudio
Old 19th February 2019
  #440
Gear Nut
 

Hi all, I’m looking at the small genelec 8020D and the 8320 which has DSP.
If I don’t plan on using their room correction kit, is the 8320 still worth the price increase/ is there a noticeable sonic improvement in the 8320 vs the 8020?
Old 19th February 2019
  #441
Lives for gear
Why dont you want the room correction kit? Even at nearfield where the room contributes less you still have the effects of the console/desk. The glm wipes it right out.
Old 19th February 2019
  #442
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsapo2001 View Post
Why dont you want the room correction kit?
Like you said I’ll be using these as really close nearfield at lower volume levels so there should be little room effect. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but the SAM system isn’t provided with the monitors right? So the extra $500 also factors in.
Old 19th February 2019
  #443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari88 View Post
Like you said I’ll be using these as really close nearfield at lower volume levels so there should be little room effect. Also, correct me if I’m wrong but the SAM system isn’t provided with the monitors right? So the extra $500 also factors in.
If you buy the stereo 'kit', it includes the SAM microphone, network adapter and software.

I am running 8020a's here and I really like them, but I've got an itch for the SAM stuff!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #444
Here for the gear
 

The potential issues with the Genelec’s are two fold. Yes, they are a bit accentuated on the upper midrange a bit and bright overall, but most speakers need to be, and should be equalized and adapted to the room in any case. In other words, for serious mixing, you can and should address that. However, and this appears to be something that many ME’s don’t seem to notice, focus on or possibly be able to hear. They are a bit brash and shrill compared to something like a Focal Trio or many other speakers. I am not talking about high end accentuation, but a combination of engineering design and component choices that result in IM and other distortion. For those who hear it or are turned off by it, they consistently make them de-emphasize the upper registers, which can result in a dull mix. I may be a bit persnickety because I have listened to a lot of live acoustical performances, and have generally been an audiophile style of pleasure listener, but I believe that you need at least one set of monitors that can accurately reproduce a mix without significant levels of audible distortion. Again, other than missing low frequency energy beyond the physical capabilities of your speakers and room to generate and support, equalization can be addresses fairly successfully. I have heard a wide range of problems (e.g. zero-point crossing clicks on a few top-10 songs, massive phasing distortion in vocals created during the mix, etc), which “disappear” into the other problems and limitations of many “reference” monitors. This may not matter in mixing some types of music, but if you want the flexibility to reproduce a wide range of frequencies, tonality, dynamics and timbre, spend some time doing focused listening to non-amplified music of strings, vocals woodwinds and percussion, and find at least one pair of monitors that can reproduce that well. Genelec’s were definitely not well designed for that purpose.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amdenis View Post
The potential issues with the Genelec’s are two fold. Yes, they are a bit accentuated on the upper midrange a bit and bright overall, but most speakers need to be, and should be equalized and adapted to the room in any case. In other words, for serious mixing, you can and should address that. However, and this appears to be something that many ME’s don’t seem to notice, focus on or possibly be able to hear. They are a bit brash and shrill compared to something like a Focal Trio or many other speakers. I am not talking about high end accentuation, but a combination of engineering design and component choices that result in IM and other distortion. For those who hear it or are turned off by it, they consistently make them de-emphasize the upper registers, which can result in a dull mix. I may be a bit persnickety because I have listened to a lot of live acoustical performances, and have generally been an audiophile style of pleasure listener, but I believe that you need at least one set of monitors that can accurately reproduce a mix without significant levels of audible distortion. Again, other than missing low frequency energy beyond the physical capabilities of your speakers and room to generate and support, equalization can be addresses fairly successfully. I have heard a wide range of problems (e.g. zero-point crossing clicks on a few top-10 songs, massive phasing distortion in vocals created during the mix, etc), which “disappear” into the other problems and limitations of many “reference” monitors. This may not matter in mixing some types of music, but if you want the flexibility to reproduce a wide range of frequencies, tonality, dynamics and timbre, spend some time doing focused listening to non-amplified music of strings, vocals woodwinds and percussion, and find at least one pair of monitors that can reproduce that well. Genelec’s were definitely not well designed for that purpose.
Hmmm, I would just like to tell you that this is just your opinion and far from reality. Better take a look at the measurements of distortion before stating something like this. Obviously you didn't hear Genelecs set up correctly in a good room.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amdenis View Post
The potential issues with the Genelec’s are two fold. Yes, they are a bit accentuated on the upper midrange a bit and bright overall, but most speakers need to be, and should be equalized and adapted to the room in any case. In other words, for serious mixing, you can and should address that. However, and this appears to be something that many ME’s don’t seem to notice, focus on or possibly be able to hear. They are a bit brash and shrill compared to something like a Focal Trio or many other speakers. I am not talking about high end accentuation, but a combination of engineering design and component choices that result in IM and other distortion. For those who hear it or are turned off by it, they consistently make them de-emphasize the upper registers, which can result in a dull mix. I may be a bit persnickety because I have listened to a lot of live acoustical performances, and have generally been an audiophile style of pleasure listener, but I believe that you need at least one set of monitors that can accurately reproduce a mix without significant levels of audible distortion. Again, other than missing low frequency energy beyond the physical capabilities of your speakers and room to generate and support, equalization can be addresses fairly successfully. I have heard a wide range of problems (e.g. zero-point crossing clicks on a few top-10 songs, massive phasing distortion in vocals created during the mix, etc), which “disappear” into the other problems and limitations of many “reference” monitors. This may not matter in mixing some types of music, but if you want the flexibility to reproduce a wide range of frequencies, tonality, dynamics and timbre, spend some time doing focused listening to non-amplified music of strings, vocals woodwinds and percussion, and find at least one pair of monitors that can reproduce that well. Genelec’s were definitely not well designed for that purpose.
This is really suspect:
1) Opposite of what I hear
2) Your first post!? ... are you a dealer for something else (Focal?)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #447
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hmmm, I would just like to tell you that this is just your opinion and far from reality. Better take a look at the measurements of distortion before stating something like this. Obviously you didn't hear Genelecs set up correctly in a good room.
Agreed. Also if you look at anechoic measurements as performed for example by soundandrecording anyone can see Genelec in general produce very neutral loudspeakers with excellent (even) dispersion characteristics. They also have measurements on several Focal speakers which are not quite as good in that department.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #448
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To the moderators:
1st message after mine, by "Martel80", was totally relevant to the topic & don't understand why it was erased!
(All the other ones were useless & should have been deleted.)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #449
Quote:
Originally Posted by aremos View Post
To the moderators:
1st message after mine, by "Martel80", was totally relevant to the topic & don't understand why it was erased!
(All the other ones were useless & should have been deleted.)
No worries, he even erased a question related to a specific Genelec model but no one got hurt and hes on his power trip. Leave him be.

Back to Genelec.

Merci de te soucier, très apprécié.
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