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Barefoot MM27 gen2 - in a small/mid size room??
Old 6th January 2015
  #1
Gear Head
 

Barefoot MM27 gen2 - in a small/mid size room??

Hey all-

I've read through most of the threads regarding the barefoot mm27s but wanted to see if there are more opinions on the gen2 models.

I've used genelecs 8040, focal twins, and currently using Adam s3x-h alongside my eternal ns-10s.

I have a decent sounding room all high end gear (apogee symphony io, dangerous st, great outboard gear and professionally wired) sound anchor stands in NYC.

Anyone compare the Adam s3x-h against the barefoots? I'm looking for better definition in the lows, better low extension, wider imaging (sweet spot), better separation all around especially in the mids and highs. I want to hear reverbs better. The Adams frustrate me at times because they can sound smeary, and breakup too easily.

One concern I have--the barefoots being too big for my room?? I'm using them as nearfields. However I did talk to Thomas and he said I'll be fine and he's never had anyone have that issue. VK also told me they're great to use at low levels as well. My room is about 13'x20' with 9' ceilings. It's pretty well treated as the adams sound good in the room now. I know monitors will only sound as good as the room and I've done everything I can to tune the room.

I really like mixing quieter and love to hear it all with my dim switch engaged on my dangerous ST with the volume set at 4 o'clock. This is a really comfortable mixing level. The Adams do a pretty good job with this but I never feel like I can get the bass to sit right in my room. I have some issues around 80Hz but only at very loud levels.

I actually spoke with Thomas at barefoot and he told me the mm27 might alleviate the lower freq issues due to their lower extension and tighter definition using a sealed cabinet design. The Adams being ported can sound too lose in the room esp the bass range. Also the Adams tweeter design is very sensitive to the sweet spot.

Are the mm27 gen2's gonna be the ones?!!

Any comments you have are much appreciated! Hope I didn't ramble too much.

Here's a pic link of my room. Forgive the boxes and quality of the picture using my iPhone

https://db.tt/v3gXMuZm

Happy New Year!
Old 6th January 2015
  #2
Lives for gear
 

I've been having a similar debate myself regarding monitors but my room is only 12x14. I was this close to buying ATC 50s but I worry about bass definition despite the fact that my room is very well treated esepcially for bass frequencies. I think I'm going to hold out and see if I can't get a deal on 25s.

Speakers can be so room dependent so I always go under the expectation that smaller speakers will typically interact with the room less especially in a near field setup.

Your room is a pretty good size so the 27s could be just your thing. If you can, order the mm35s and mm27s and see which work better. At the cost any reputable dealer should be willing to let you demo a few options.

looking at that picture of your room I think I would go for 35s. I think you could get a buildup a bass frequencies with 27s. In my room I used 4" x 48" traps all around in additon to dedicated corner traps.

2" absorbers don't do much for bass frequncies and if anything can create a weird balance absorbing highs and mids while letting the bass splash around.

I'm no expert mind you but if you want greater definition smaller in this case might be more worthwhile with maybe bigger speakers for casual listenining and another reference
Old 7th January 2015
  #3
Gear Head
 

Thanks for the reply. Thats one of my main concerns. I'm gonna call Barefoot and discuss. I was originally thinking the MM35s would be better suited. Anyone have thoughts on the Adam S3X-H vs the MM35s gen2s?
Old 19th January 2015
  #4
Gear Addict
 

I have a room of just 20 square meters which is smaller than your room BUT I have a LOT of basstrappin' going on:

http://www.synthforum.nl/forums/atta...8&d=1339288266
http://www.synthforum.nl/forums/atta...6&d=1339288233

Edit; and it sounds just amazing
Attached Thumbnails
Barefoot MM27 gen2 - in a small/mid size room??-1395215_638810356163641_143176138_n.jpg  
Old 20th January 2015
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
I've been having a similar debate myself regarding monitors but my room is only 12x14. I was this close to buying ATC 50s but I worry about bass definition despite the fact that my room is very well treated especially for bass frequencies. I think I'm going to hold out and see if I can't get a deal on 25s.
Did a recent shootout with MM27 vs ATC 25A in a small room setup. The room is small but well-designed and the shoot out was done with one of the two foremost acousticians in the US. I'd say the finished size was just a bit larger than yours. The MM27 performed very well as nearfields. Especially in the low end. However, the consensus was the top end was a bit "manufactured" -- there was a high freq push. The MM27 are very finicky to adjust into position, but once done they're great (toe-in, toe-out, vertical height, separation from rear and side walls.) I'd hate to use them as portables if only because it'd take me too long on location to set up.

The ATC 25A were chosen but they could not come close to handling the low-end the way the MM27 did. The port was fluttering like crazy; however the solution was adding a sub (12" Genelec) set to 85Hz LPF. A sub of that size barely has to add anything but it keeps everything in check and we could run to our 110 dBC peak without any extreme driver excursion (so no distortion.)

Overall, it was a close call between the two -- if I wanted an all-in-one, the MM27 would be my choice and I'd dampen the high freq response a little in the room. On the ATC side, the midrange on the 25A is the real seller as on any ATC speaker with the 75mm drivers. Really close call -- and the pricing was spitting distance between the two systems (including sub pricing.)

The 50ASL were considered but there was just no way to get the cabinets of that size in a good location in a room that small and preserve a great stereo image. You need at least 4 feet, IMHO, from the midrange on the 50 to get a great sound that aligns all three drivers into a cohesive sound.
Old 20th January 2015
  #6
Gear Addict
 
Toni-P's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pass-out View Post
I have a room of just 20 square meters which is smaller than your room BUT I have a LOT of basstrappin' going on:

http://www.synthforum.nl/forums/atta...8&d=1339288266
http://www.synthforum.nl/forums/atta...6&d=1339288233

Edit; and it sounds just amazing
Can use 9dB more of basstrapping ;-)

I have been to this guys place and can confirm that there is a TON of basstrapping
Old 21st January 2015
  #7
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Did a recent shootout with MM27 vs ATC 25A in a small room setup. The room is small but well-designed and the shoot out was done with one of the two foremost acousticians in the US. I'd say the finished size was just a bit larger than yours. The MM27 performed very well as nearfields. Especially in the low end. However, the consensus was the top end was a bit "manufactured" -- there was a high freq push. The MM27 are very finicky to adjust into position, but once done they're great (toe-in, toe-out, vertical height, separation from rear and side walls.) I'd hate to use them as portables if only because it'd take me too long on location to set up.

The ATC 25A were chosen but they could not come close to handling the low-end the way the MM27 did. The port was fluttering like crazy; however the solution was adding a sub (12" Genelec) set to 85Hz LPF. A sub of that size barely has to add anything but it keeps everything in check and we could run to our 110 dBC peak without any extreme driver excursion (so no distortion.)

Overall, it was a close call between the two -- if I wanted an all-in-one, the MM27 would be my choice and I'd dampen the high freq response a little in the room. On the ATC side, the midrange on the 25A is the real seller as on any ATC speaker with the 75mm drivers. Really close call -- and the pricing was spitting distance between the two systems (including sub pricing.)

The 50ASL were considered but there was just no way to get the cabinets of that size in a good location in a room that small and preserve a great stereo image. You need at least 4 feet, IMHO, from the midrange on the 50 to get a great sound that aligns all three drivers into a cohesive sound.
Thanks Pentagon-

Gen1 or Gen2 MM27s?
Old 21st January 2015
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Gen2 MM27s and in "flat" mode.
The ATC 25As were originally tested as a ported design but once the sub was used, it was used as a sealed box design (the port was plugged.)
Old 22nd January 2015
  #9
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Gen2 MM27s and in "flat" mode.
The ATC 25As were originally tested as a ported design but once the sub was used, it was used as a sealed box design (the port was plugged.)
I do have a sub in my room that I use (genelec) just to kiss the ns-10s when I need it. I was debating between the same barefoot mm27 gen2 vs atc25. Though I haven't received my barefoots yet I'm wary of using a sub with my mains as that atc speakers require. So I imagine I'll end up liking the barefoots b/c they'll be working as a stand alone main set without a need for a sub.

In the meantime I'll be getting more GiK acoustic treatments soon--tri traps for the corners, monster bass traps for the rear wall. The room will be much better controlling the low end madness that's headed my way!
Old 21st February 2015
  #10
Gear Head
 

I'd thought I'd give an update.

I bought the barefoot mm27 gen2 speakers December 31 and finally got them February 18th.

Since then, I installed corner GIK bass tri traps, 242 panels and monster bass traps. The room became much more balanced and the low end tighter. This was before I got the barefoots.

The mm27s arrived in perfectly packaged boxes. I got them up on my sound anchor ADJ 1 stands and with the barefoot handles it wasn't that bad for my back! I just turned the sound anchors around so the platforms are on the inside of the triangle. I do have a larger platform that was made to fit my Adam s3x-h s(which I'm selling if anyone is interested). The barefoots are totally fine on these stands. And I don't feel like they will tip over at all.

Hooking them up was a breeze. Analog in and I measured to find the right listening position and angle.

I listened to a bunch of material. And it was beautiful. Here are my main impressions:

1. Sealed cabinet design is by far the way to go. Tighter bass which made me feel better about my room. In fact it makes my room sound amazing.
2. Huge sweet spot. It's true. It is massively wide and tall.
3. Incredibly fast. Kicks and transients never sounded so good.
4. Separation. The clarity is awesome. So much frequency detail.
5. They go loud and quiet. It's so consistent at all listening levels.
6. Meme technology is really cool. For mixing for TV it's an amazing tool. Checking SFX, dialogue and music mixes with the old school and cube setting is just awesome. I feel great knowing complicated TV mixes will translate anywhere. I did compare to actual auratones and ns-10s with the barefoot meme settings.

I read a lot of people saying they are brutal or brutally honest. They are honest and thats why I love them. Brutal isn't really a good word to describe them. I spend less time messing around mixing and more time writing. When I need a HP filter, compressor or EQ the mm27 gen2's let me know. There's no guessing anymore. I've never trusted a speaker so quickly in my life.

After 3 solid days and nights with them my NS-10s and genelec sub I use with the ns-10s are already getting dusty. I did have to level match the ns-10s to the barefoots meme setting. If anything my ns-10s are a bit fuller in the low end and the imaging is a bit more defined on the ns-10s when I A/B'd the meme setting. But this could be due to speaker placement, amp, etc. It's prety darn close though. Really, it's close enough that I've been trusting the meme setting completely last few days.


All in the Barefoot MM27 gen2 s are superb. Any concerns I had are long gone. From the nastiest EDM to Hans Zimmer's subwoofing insane Interstellar cues these handle everything. Big time. Next level ****. Hopefully the last level for me and my wallet.

I should note that I called Barefoot about any "breaking in" period. Barefoot take care of that before they ship them. Right out of the box they are good to go. Great to go.

I'm very happy in this new honeymoon my wife now calls monitor mistress.

Last edited by sloanlogic; 21st February 2015 at 06:27 AM.. Reason: Typo
Old 21st February 2015
  #11
Gear Head
 

Attached picture
Attached Thumbnails
Barefoot MM27 gen2 - in a small/mid size room??-image_6997_0.jpg  
Old 21st February 2015
  #12
Gear Addict
 

Nice, you can now AB with your ns10s with the setting on the gen2's
Old 21st February 2015
  #13
QRS
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sloanlogic View Post
1. Sealed cabinet design is by far the way to go. Tighter bass which made me feel better about my room. In fact it makes my room sound amazing.
2. Huge sweet spot. It's true. It is massively wide and tall.
3. Incredibly fast. Kicks and transients never sounded so good.
4. Separation. The clarity is awesome. So much frequency detail.
5. They go loud and quiet. It's so consistent at all listening levels.
6. Meme technology is really cool. For mixing for TV it's an amazing tool. Checking SFX, dialogue and music mixes with the old school and cube setting is just awesome. I feel great knowing complicated TV mixes will translate anywhere.
hi sloanlogic, nice to hear you're so happy with the barefoots and your six points are spot on! i also think these are wonderful monitors... and i tried a lot the last months.
now make some great music and have some fun.
Old 15th October 2015
  #14
Gear Head
 

Thought I'd give one more piece of advice for anyone looking at these.

When you set them up vertically at listening position make sure that they are at a good angle so that you don't see the subwoofer cones. It makes a big difference when you've got them positioned this way. You're locked in and that bass becomes really tight. More focused.

I'll post a picture when I can.
Old 18th October 2015
  #15
Gear Nut
 

I've been reading a lot of posts recently about high end monitors and comparisons between certain brands.

I own a commercial studio in NYC with two main rooms and have mixed many records over the years using my tried and tested ns10's coupled with 2 Genelec 1094's subwoofers.

I also have boxers T5 as mains for my clients in the Studio A but rarely use them.

From the late 90's until late 2000's I was mixing on Genelec 1031's and every mix I did had to be recalled several times because I could not get them to sound the same outside the studio. I always had NS10's next to the Genelecs but somehow I was no longer using them for reasons I can't even explain.

One day I was battling a mix for so long that I decided to flip to NS10's and see what would happen.

I immediately understood everything that was wrong with my mix and it was in the mid range. My ears immediately opened up and the fog was lifted.

From that point on I sold the Genelecs and used nothing other than the NS10's.

About 3 years ago, I installed a pair of Barefoot MM27's at our B room next to a pair of NS10's (at the request of a long term client).

I tried the barefoot monitors a few times but ran immediately to our A room back to my setup. (NS10's + subs).

Our rooms are built from the ground up and designed by John Storyk,
I am also a tech and have various tools to tune rooms.

I recently started working more often at the B room since the A is locked long term and gave the barefoot a try.

I tried everything, moving them, tweaking the room and measuring to death but I simply can't get them to sound good (Accurate and not hyped) I even brought an outside professional room tuner, who told me to get rid of those speakers asap.

In my opinion there are a couple of critical flaws with their design, such as those 2 subs facing each other, thus causing some serious phasing issues, unless you move them far apart. Also there is a serious bump around 150/200 hz that I heard on every mix that I did as well as other commercial records played through them.

My spectrum analyzer picked up the same frequencies my ears did.

The lack of a mid range driver in my opinion creates a whole in that range and according to what I hear, a big portion of the mids is coming from the mid low drives, thus resulting in the 150-200hz bump and the upper register from the tweeter, which to me sounds harsh to my ears around 3.5K, as it tries to add to the mid range.

Two weeks ago, I arranged to get a pair of ATC SCM25s and installed them next to the barefoots.

It was the best decision I have ever made. All mixes previously done on my NS10's sounded exactly as intended on the ATCs.

The music I produced was reproduced by the ATC exactly the way it did on every other monitor and as intended, except when played on the barefoot.

My kick drums/bass sounds are not reproduced with the same tonality when playing through the barefoot monitors.

I also noticed that both the ATC's as well as the NS10's have a better definition in the low end and they actually sound punchier than the barefoot with 4 sub-woofers.

The only way I was able to cure some of the low end problems on the barefoot was by turning off the subs and adding an external sub, but the hype on the mid lows was still there.

Having an external sub is a necessity for us, specially if using the barefoot as they can't take the beating when some of my R&B/Hip-Hop clients are in the room, but unless I turn off the subs on the barefoot, it's a phasing parade in the room. Even if I flipped the phase on the sub, it just doesn't work.

I don't have this problem when using the sub with the ATCs or even with the NS10's.

After using Barefoot monitors for a while I found myself altering and destroying mixes I was doing on my NS10's due to the inaccurate translation of the sounds I was hearing.

This is not happening with my ATC's. They sound like a high end version of the NS10's, which is perfect for me as I usually get tired after using the NS10's for long hours.

There must be a reason why Barefoot MM26's were developed, but after all my bad experiences I won't even bother trying them.

Some may say that these are my opinions and not facts, but I called 6 other engineers that I trust and there wasn't one person that disagreed with my assessments. Even my spectrum analyzer displayed everything that I thought was wrong with the barefoot.

I can't wait to get them out of my studio and utilize the space to add a pair of louder speakers for my clients.

Bottom line is, whenever possible, try to test more than one pair of monitors at the same time in YOUR room.
Having one pair of monitors at a time may not be the best scenario for comparison purposes.

I am still considering adding a pair of Focal SM9s next to the ATCS just to see what happens, but I am fairly certain that the SCM25's will win the shootout.

My .02$

Last edited by 81series.com; 18th October 2015 at 09:51 AM..
Old 18th October 2015
  #16
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 

Interesting.
Never had such a bump at 150hz when I was using them.
Maybe your room and barefoots just weren't meant to be.
Never had phase issues with the subs either.
Old 26th October 2015
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 81series.com View Post
I've been reading a lot of posts recently about high end monitors and comparisons between certain brands.

I own a commercial studio in NYC with two main rooms and have mixed many records over the years using my tried and tested ns10's coupled with 2 Genelec 1094's subwoofers.

I also have boxers T5 as mains for my clients in the Studio A but rarely use them.

From the late 90's until late 2000's I was mixing on Genelec 1031's and every mix I did had to be recalled several times because I could not get them to sound the same outside the studio. I always had NS10's next to the Genelecs but somehow I was no longer using them for reasons I can't even explain.

One day I was battling a mix for so long that I decided to flip to NS10's and see what would happen.

I immediately understood everything that was wrong with my mix and it was in the mid range. My ears immediately opened up and the fog was lifted.

From that point on I sold the Genelecs and used nothing other than the NS10's.

About 3 years ago, I installed a pair of Barefoot MM27's at our B room next to a pair of NS10's (at the request of a long term client).

I tried the barefoot monitors a few times but ran immediately to our A room back to my setup. (NS10's + subs).

Our rooms are built from the ground up and designed by John Storyk,
I am also a tech and have various tools to tune rooms.

I recently started working more often at the B room since the A is locked long term and gave the barefoot a try.

I tried everything, moving them, tweaking the room and measuring to death but I simply can't get them to sound good (Accurate and not hyped) I even brought an outside professional room tuner, who told me to get rid of those speakers asap.

In my opinion there are a couple of critical flaws with their design, such as those 2 subs facing each other, thus causing some serious phasing issues, unless you move them far apart. Also there is a serious bump around 150/200 hz that I heard on every mix that I did as well as other commercial records played through them.

My spectrum analyzer picked up the same frequencies my ears did.

The lack of a mid range driver in my opinion creates a whole in that range and according to what I hear, a big portion of the mids is coming from the mid low drives, thus resulting in the 150-200hz bump and the upper register from the tweeter, which to me sounds harsh to my ears around 3.5K, as it tries to add to the mid range.

Two weeks ago, I arranged to get a pair of ATC SCM25s and installed them next to the barefoots.

It was the best decision I have ever made. All mixes previously done on my NS10's sounded exactly as intended on the ATCs.

The music I produced was reproduced by the ATC exactly the way it did on every other monitor and as intended, except when played on the barefoot.

My kick drums/bass sounds are not reproduced with the same tonality when playing through the barefoot monitors.

I also noticed that both the ATC's as well as the NS10's have a better definition in the low end and they actually sound punchier than the barefoot with 4 sub-woofers.

The only way I was able to cure some of the low end problems on the barefoot was by turning off the subs and adding an external sub, but the hype on the mid lows was still there.

Having an external sub is a necessity for us, specially if using the barefoot as they can't take the beating when some of my R&B/Hip-Hop clients are in the room, but unless I turn off the subs on the barefoot, it's a phasing parade in the room. Even if I flipped the phase on the sub, it just doesn't work.

I don't have this problem when using the sub with the ATCs or even with the NS10's.

After using Barefoot monitors for a while I found myself altering and destroying mixes I was doing on my NS10's due to the inaccurate translation of the sounds I was hearing.

This is not happening with my ATC's. They sound like a high end version of the NS10's, which is perfect for me as I usually get tired after using the NS10's for long hours.

There must be a reason why Barefoot MM26's were developed, but after all my bad experiences I won't even bother trying them.

Some may say that these are my opinions and not facts, but I called 6 other engineers that I trust and there wasn't one person that disagreed with my assessments. Even my spectrum analyzer displayed everything that I thought was wrong with the barefoot.

I can't wait to get them out of my studio and utilize the space to add a pair of louder speakers for my clients.

Bottom line is, whenever possible, try to test more than one pair of monitors at the same time in YOUR room.
Having one pair of monitors at a time may not be the best scenario for comparison purposes.

I am still considering adding a pair of Focal SM9s next to the ATCS just to see what happens, but I am fairly certain that the SCM25's will win the shootout.

My .02$


You should try the new Genelec 8351 SAM with the GLM 2.0, even though I doubt you would really the glm kit. Its a very different experience than the old Gens, I couldn't get along with them either. I also think that they are placed between the sm9 and atc25's in terms of tonality. Fast punchy bass (sm9's have pregnant bass and the atc's not enough of it) great mids (not as analytical as the atc mid dome but its still overkill while more musical) and excellent highs. Never had anything recalled on them either.

I would be interested in your thoughts.


Cheers!
Old 3rd March 2016
  #18
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 81series.com View Post
I've been reading a lot of posts recently about high end monitors and comparisons between certain brands.



The lack of a mid range driver in my opinion creates a whole in that range and according to what I hear, a big portion of the mids is coming from the mid low drives, thus resulting in the 150-200hz bump and the upper register from the tweeter, which to me sounds harsh to my ears around 3.5K, as it tries to add to the mid range.

Two weeks ago, I arranged to get a pair of ATC SCM25s and installed them next to the barefoots.

It was the best decision I have ever made. All mixes previously done on my NS10's sounded exactly as intended on the ATCs.

The music I produced was reproduced by the ATC exactly the way it did on every other monitor and as intended, except when played on the barefoot.

My kick drums/bass sounds are not reproduced with the same tonality when playing through the barefoot monitors.

I also noticed that both the ATC's as well as the NS10's have a better definition in the low end and they actually sound punchier than the barefoot with 4 sub-woofers.

The only way I was able to cure some of the low end problems on the barefoot was by turning off the subs and adding an external sub, but the hype on the mid lows was still there.

Having an external sub is a necessity for us, specially if using the barefoot as they can't take the beating when some of my R&B/Hip-Hop clients are in the room, but unless I turn off the subs on the barefoot, it's a phasing parade in the room. Even if I flipped the phase on the sub, it just doesn't work.

I don't have this problem when using the sub with the ATCs or even with the NS10's.

After using Barefoot monitors for a while I found myself altering and destroying mixes I was doing on my NS10's due to the inaccurate translation of the sounds I was hearing.

This is not happening with my ATC's. They sound like a high end version of the NS10's, which is perfect for me as I usually get tired after using the NS10's for long hours.

There must be a reason why Barefoot MM26's were developed, but after all my bad experiences I won't even bother trying them.

Some may say that these are my opinions and not facts, but I called 6 other engineers that I trust and there wasn't one person that disagreed with my assessments. Even my spectrum analyzer displayed everything that I thought was wrong with the barefoot.
$
I totally agree. I went through my barefoot journey and came to the same conclusions. I sold them and switched to the ATC scm20 asl Mk 2. With a sub. What an amazing difference and I can finally move on.

Check out my other thread about the ATC 20s mk2.

Last edited by sloanlogic; 3rd March 2016 at 06:59 PM..
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