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Acoustic guitar greats, figure 8 Condenser Microphones
Old 27th December 2014
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Acoustic guitar greats, figure 8

Microphone talk-

Hi, what are some proven classics on acoustic guitar, limited only to mics with a figure 8 option? Rich mids, sparkling highs, detailed transients, etc

These obvious choices come to mind: c414eb , U67 , U87
Any others? Proven clones?

(Why I'm asking: I'd like to be able to record singer/songwriters simultaneously)
Old 27th December 2014
  #2
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timtoonz's Avatar
I really like the Gefell UM70 on acoustic. The c414eb (brass capsule) is definitely awesome. And sometimes the Gefell UM900 is great too. Also, I've used the Pearlman TM1 or the Peluso 2247 with decent results.
Old 27th December 2014
  #3
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Cathedral Guitar's Avatar
For transformer based:
KM88
KM86
Schoeps CMT 56
AKG CK4
U89

Transformerless
Schoeps CMC 68
Neumann KM100
TLM170

Just released:
Neumann TLM107

Budget: Sennheiser MK8

Then there are several dozen ribbon mics to consider….
Old 27th December 2014
  #4
Gear Addict
Manley Gold Reference...excels at pretty much everything. Incredibly superb mic. A truly wonderful mic in any application.

Royer R--122 ribbon. Although it's not typically used for acoustic guitar it's another superb mic for that application, especially in the figure 8 category. Wonderful mic for mid/side recording.


Tom
Old 28th December 2014
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for the suggestions!
Old 28th December 2014
  #6
Baz
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This is what I use for dual fig 8. Basically the only option I have.Thing is, the BULS is amazing at rejecting the vocal; where there's much more noticeable bleed into the 87 when soloing a mic
Attached Thumbnails
Acoustic guitar greats, figure 8-fig8-87.414.2.jpg  
Old 28th December 2014
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz View Post
This is what I use for dual fig 8. Basically the only option I have.Thing is, the BULS is amazing at rejecting the vocal; where there's much more noticeable bleed into the 87 when soloing a mic
Yup that's what I've been doing. I have a B-ULS TL II, awesome mic. Has a bit more presence than the B-ULS. I really like how well the backside hears any room bleed, too.
Old 28th December 2014
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kr1012 View Post
Manley Gold Reference...excels at pretty much everything. Incredibly superb mic. A truly wonderful mic in any application.

Royer R--122 ribbon. Although it's not typically used for acoustic guitar it's another superb mic for that application, especially in the figure 8 category. Wonderful mic for mid/side recording.


Tom
My search for a great acoustic mic pretty much ended with the Royer 122. I use the backside with big sounding Martin dreads. The key is I will use a u67, u47 or 251 on vocals and some of the guitar is picked up by the condesner which adds a bit of sparkle to the guitar track.

Combined they provide one hell of a compelling guitar track. Downside is that you can't treat the vocal separately due to the mic bleed of the guitar so vocal tuning and some other treatments are out of the question.

I would imagine the 122 might work well with your u87 with the 87 on voice and the 122 on guitar.
Old 28th December 2014
  #9
Royer 122v or Elam 251 here in that application.
Old 29th December 2014
  #10
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
My search for a great acoustic mic pretty much ended with the Royer 122. I use the backside with big sounding Martin dreads. The key is I will use a u67, u47 or 251 on vocals and some of the guitar is picked up by the condesner which adds a bit of sparkle to the guitar track.

Combined they provide one hell of a compelling guitar track. Downside is that you can't treat the vocal separately due to the mic bleed of the guitar so vocal tuning and some other treatments are out of the question.

I would imagine the 122 might work well with your u87 with the 87 on voice and the 122 on guitar.

Yes!! I completely agree on using the backside of the Royer R122 for acoustic guitar. Great sound over all.


Tom
Old 29th December 2014
  #11
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Vintageidiot's Avatar
U87ai here in a bae>vari mu/10dc>mp>Orion. Gibson J45, Stunning. Takes work of course, but stunning in the end.
Old 30th December 2014
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz View Post
This is what I use for dual fig 8. Basically the only option I have.Thing is, the BULS is amazing at rejecting the vocal; where there's much more noticeable bleed into the 87 when soloing a mic
Try to place the mics orizontally (still inclined), and also
try the 414 up for vocals and the 87 on the guitar
The 87 has poor rejection, is well known, sometimes
a good thing, some others not so much
Old 30th December 2014
  #13
how about some ribbons? like coles 4038 or beyer m130
Old 30th December 2014
  #14
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vernier's Avatar
U87 works. U47 worked for Beatles. Or, how bout try RE15.

Old 30th December 2014
  #15
Baz
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Baz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retinal View Post
Try to place the mics orizontally (still inclined), and also
try the 414 up for vocals and the 87 on the guitar
The 87 has poor rejection, is well known, sometimes
a good thing, some others not so much
Hi, thanks for the suggestion.

I actually was just commenting on how greatly the BULS and 87 differ in Fig ,comparatively as far as rejection, for anyone that might be curious. It’s really quite dramatic and I wasn’t implying that I was having a challenge. While I will use either mic for vocals, in this case I preferred the 87, so wouldn’t want to reverse them.

I learned this dual Fig 8 method from Fletcher actually, and if I was to change the mic placement to the horizontal, I imagine it would cancel the desired effect, by not having the back sides pointed at each other. If I remember Fletcher’s explanation correctly, this placement creates an “acoustical null” thereby really limiting bleed. I found I was able to treat individual mics separately, with reverb for example, without having much impact on the other mic.

There was a great example Fletcher had of this using 2x AK47’s > Flamingo on the old Mercenary site.

Cheers
Old 30th December 2014
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz View Post
Hi, thanks for the suggestion.

I actually was just commenting on how greatly the BULS and 87 differ in Fig ,comparatively as far as rejection, for anyone that might be curious. It’s really quite dramatic and I wasn’t implying that I was having a challenge. While I will use either mic for vocals, in this case I preferred the 87, so wouldn’t want to reverse them.

I learned this dual Fig 8 method from Fletcher actually, and if I was to change the mic placement to the horizontal, I imagine it would cancel the desired effect, by not having the back sides pointed at each other. If I remember Fletcher’s explanation correctly, this placement creates an “acoustical null” thereby really limiting bleed. I found I was able to treat individual mics separately, with reverb for example, without having much impact on the other mic.

There was a great example Fletcher had of this using 2x AK47’s > Flamingo on the old Mercenary site.

Cheers
Figure 8 mics blind side is not the back, is the sides.
Think about it (and try it yourself) dual capsule, figure 8
it pick up the front and the back (I'm sure you've read
how picking the back side of some ribbons like royer is
actually prefered by many for some application)
and they have the blind spot on both sides of the "8"

Actually, the rejection from the sides of a fig8 is greater (often)
than the back let's say on a cardioid.
This characteristic is well know an used to isolate elements
when mic'ing drum for example.
Anywatpy try it yourself, select fig8 and sing on the back,
then sing on the side, see which one picks up less signal.

As for switching mics, yes I imagined you liked the u87
better on vocals but is worth a try as you need to think about the whole picture, nobody will listen to the vocal in solo,
the 87 having bad rejection might work better overall
picking up the instrument and the bleed from the vocals
(since will pick it up anyway)
Alternatively, just use one mic, if placed correctly can
give you great results
Old 31st December 2014
  #17
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swafford's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBuffaloCave View Post
Microphone talk-

Hi, what are some proven classics on acoustic guitar, limited only to mics with a figure 8 option? Rich mids, sparkling highs, detailed transients, etc)
It's not been proven, but an Arabella or UM70 on vocals and a Royer 122v on the guitar works wonders. Add an AEA R88 about 7 feet out and 7 feet up in blumelein and Bob Is Your Fvcking Uncle.
Old 31st December 2014
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Would hugely recommend the km86
i use that with a u87 both in fig 8 and you will find this mic works great on a lot of things !
Old 31st December 2014
  #19
Baz
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Baz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retinal View Post
Figure 8 mics blind side is not the back, is the sides.
Think about it (and try it yourself) dual capsule, figure 8
it pick up the front and the back (I'm sure you've read
how picking the back side of some ribbons like royer is
actually prefered by many for some application)
and they have the blind spot on both sides of the "8"

Actually, the rejection from the sides of a fig8 is greater (often)
than the back let's say on a cardioid.
This characteristic is well know an used to isolate elements
when mic'ing drum for example.
Anywatpy try it yourself, select fig8 and sing on the back,
then sing on the side, see which one picks up less signal.

As for switching mics, yes I imagined you liked the u87
better on vocals but is worth a try as you need to think about the whole picture, nobody will listen to the vocal in solo,
the 87 having bad rejection might work better overall
picking up the instrument and the bleed from the vocals
(since will pick it up anyway)
Alternatively, just use one mic, if placed correctly can
give you great results
Thanks again, but I don't think you really understand the concept of this technique

I guess you missed my mention of what Fletcher referred to re the acoustical null.Fletcher is a guy with quite a bit of experience so I was interested in his technique and also as mentioned, I saw it in a video he created, as well as heard the result..

As explained to me......"it's only cardioid to a certain frequency and then it becomes "omni-directional". With a figure 8 pattern the front and rear diaphragms are 100% electronically out of phase so the common information from when the two diaphragms both go into "omni-directional" is electronically cancelled. The cancellation causes a full frequency "null" ring around the head of the mic and you're basically left with dual card at full frequency (fig 8)......

if you point the business end of a figure 8 mic at the guitar and conversely,you point the business end of a second figure 8 mic at the singer's mouth,you get a very nice, clear, well separated voice with damn little guitar.

Vocal mic -> \
[singer/guitar player dude,dudette.]
Guitar mic -> / "

Again, this is nothing like what you're describing (I've been doing this since the 80's so I fully understand where the "null" is on a Fig 8...) and as I said, if one approached it the way you've suggested, the effect (noted above) simply wouldn't be achieved due to physics. Your way might be just as interesting, but you misunderstood the reason behind this technique.....
Old 31st December 2014
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz View Post
Thanks again, but I don't think you really understand the concept of this technique

I guess you missed my mention of what Fletcher referred to re the acoustical null.Fletcher is a guy with quite a bit of experience so I was interested in his technique and also as mentioned, I saw it in a video he created, as well as heard the result..

As explained to me......"it's only cardioid to a certain frequency and then it becomes "omni-directional". With a figure 8 pattern the front and rear diaphragms are 100% electronically out of phase so the common information from when the two diaphragms both go into "omni-directional" is electronically cancelled. The cancellation causes a full frequency "null" ring around the head of the mic and you're basically left with dual card at full frequency (fig 8)......

if you point the business end of a figure 8 mic at the guitar and conversely,you point the business end of a second figure 8 mic at the singer's mouth,you get a very nice, clear, well separated voice with damn little guitar.

Vocal mic -> \
[singer/guitar player dude,dudette.]
Guitar mic -> / "

Again, this is nothing like what you're describing (I've been doing this since the 80's so I fully understand where the "null" is on a Fig 8...) and as I said, if one approached it the way you've suggested, the effect (noted above) simply wouldn't be achieved due to physics. Your way might be just as interesting, but you misunderstood the reason behind this technique.....
I didn't say that technique is wrong, I just suggested an alternative
since it seems you ain't getting the result you want with it
No worries, carry on
Old 31st December 2014
  #21
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
One mic that no one had mentioned is Sennheiser MKH30. More neutral than my KM76 (it has kind of broad band sound with bright texture that sometimes sounds great), C414EB with "white" capsule (darkish, solid, moody but not muddy) and the same mic with brass CK12 (very open without sounding too bright, nice detail, slight sweet coloration).
Old 31st December 2014
  #22
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
If you're not against small diaphragm mics, consider the Shure Beta 181. They're nice sounding and have really great rejection.
Old 1st January 2015
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baz View Post
Thanks again, but I don't think you really understand the concept of this technique

I guess you missed my mention of what Fletcher referred to re the acoustical null.Fletcher is a guy with quite a bit of experience so I was interested in his technique and also as mentioned, I saw it in a video he created, as well as heard the result..

As explained to me......"it's only cardioid to a certain frequency and then it becomes "omni-directional". With a figure 8 pattern the front and rear diaphragms are 100% electronically out of phase so the common information from when the two diaphragms both go into "omni-directional" is electronically cancelled. The cancellation causes a full frequency "null" ring around the head of the mic and you're basically left with dual card at full frequency (fig 8)......

if you point the business end of a figure 8 mic at the guitar and conversely,you point the business end of a second figure 8 mic at the singer's mouth,you get a very nice, clear, well separated voice with damn little guitar.

Vocal mic -> \
[singer/guitar player dude,dudette.]
Guitar mic -> / "

Again, this is nothing like what you're describing (I've been doing this since the 80's so I fully understand where the "null" is on a Fig 8...) and as I said, if one approached it the way you've suggested, the effect (noted above) simply wouldn't be achieved due to physics. Your way might be just as interesting, but you misunderstood the reason behind this technique.....
I think you're both saying the same thing. Just angle the mic so that the sound you want to cancel out is in the null plane. Easy.
Old 1st January 2015
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!
Old 6th January 2015
  #25
Gear Head
 

To the op's question (if my limited experience helps)
Out of um900, u87 and rca77d (only mics i have with fig8) 9 out of 10 i go with the u87
Punchy, clear and forward, thats why.
Now technique..
i got very good results putting the singer's mic at mouth-height and to the musicians left side, so he is actually looking a little bit to the left (thats ok because he can see his left hand doing the chords this way). The mic is more or less at 12th fret above the guitar, maybe 10 cenimeters out.. No guitar-bleed absolutley! The guitarmic is in front angled away from mouth and to the guitar just as explained before (f.e. response nr.6)
Ok, i cheated a little, i delayed the voice-track about 1millisecond later,to align both mics, as the guitarmic was about 30 centimeters further away from the voice, and that opened the sound even more. but the result was much better than just putting both mics in front, yet for separation but on the other hand because the voicemic was the um900 which has the m7-capsule and at least for voice i find better results when singing a bit closer than 50 centimeters.. Anyway in my untreated room...
Hope this helps someone,

Best mati
Old 6th January 2015
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Nyquist's Avatar
Beyer M130 or AKG C12 have always worked well for me.
Old 6th January 2015
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBuffaloCave View Post
Microphone talk-

Hi, what are some proven classics on acoustic guitar, limited only to mics with a figure 8 option? Rich mids, sparkling highs, detailed transients, etc

These obvious choices come to mind: c414eb , U67 , U87
Any others? Proven clones? Open to ideas in the $1-3k range

(Why I'm asking: I'd like to be able to record singer/songwriters simultaneously)
For Rich Mids, Sparkling Highs and Detailed transients, I recommend the InnerTube Mag Mic with either a CK12 or C414 capsule,
the teflon 414 version is ma-favorite...
that mic is $2800, just have IT add what capsule you want....
Twiddle that power supply patten knob until she starts signing.....
I dig the wider cardioid patten ma-self...but with its open-air head basket, figure-eight don't sound nearly as "clunky" as with other mics.
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