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New Flea 47 Next owner Condenser Microphones
Old 30th July 2014
  #31
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Mad John's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post

The rep at Vintage King acted like they were two completely different mics.
Did he explain the sonic differences of the two models? I do not believe there is much, if any difference between the Vintage Flea 47 and the Flea 47 next in cardioid . I can not say for certain, as I have never tried a Flea Vintage.
Old 30th July 2014
  #32
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
The rep at Vintage King acted like they were two completely different mics. Of course, he wanted to sell me a Wunder.
Well there's your clue. Why not just ask Ivan at Flea. I'd trust him over anyone. My understanding is that the guts are the same, but I'm sure he could spell out the differences.

This is from Flea's site, and I see no reason to doubt them.

<The FLEA 47 NEXT sounds identical to the FLEA 47! Built with the same wiring and components as the FLEA 47.
Elimination of the omni pattern allowed us to make slightly different design.>

R
Old 30th July 2014
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad John View Post
Did he explain the sonic differences of the two models? I do not believe there is much, if any difference between the Vintage Flea 47 and the Flea 47 next in cardioid . I can not say for certain, as I have never tried a Flea Vintage.
No, he actually sidestepped the whole issue of how they sound. He just talked about how they are electronically different and "not even the same mic" due to the inherent differences in the cardioid-only design of the Flea Next.

*It sounds like I'm slagging Vintage King and that's not my intent. I called them up and asked the rep for his opinion on the most accurate U47 clone out there today. I wanted to talk about Flea and he kept selling me on Wunder. I have no reason to believe anything other than that he wanted to talk about Wunder because he really thinks the Wunder U47 clone is the most accurate, so I don't want anyone to get the idea that the guy was not doing exactly what I asked him to do, which was give me his opinion on that question.
Old 30th July 2014
  #34
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Quote:
Why not just ask Ivan at Flea. I'd trust him over anyone. My understanding is that the guts are the same, but I'm sure he could spell out the differences.
Well, at the end of the day Ivan is trying to sell his mics too. There's really no way to know yourself unless you can get a hold of one of each and try them. My intuition tells me that the answer I got from Calistro is probably closest to the opinion I would form if I did have access to both models.

That said, I am sufficiently sold on Flea. No one has anything bad to say about them as a company, and very few people who give opinions of their mics on the internet do anything other than rave about them. And if the Next does sound even very close to the Vintage, it's probably one of the best values out there in microphones.
Old 31st July 2014
  #35
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
Well, at the end of the day Ivan is trying to sell his mics too.
Indeed he is and you're right to point that out. It just comes down to who you trust, which is a decision we all make for ourselves.

R
Old 31st July 2014
  #36
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elambo's Avatar
I'd rather hear from someone whose opinion isn't weighted. Ivan's is. Most dealers' would be, too (though VK sells Flea and many other brands and I've found Mike and Jeff to be incredibly honest). An owner who's heard both back-to-back would be ideal.
Old 31st July 2014
  #37
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
NI have no reason to believe anything other than that he wanted to talk about Wunder because he really thinks the Wunder U47 clone is the most accurate
Wunder is my current fav U47 as well. I had a CM7 against two great 47s and in a few cases actually preferred the Wunder. I know that VK feels strongly about them as well so their opinion was likely an honest one.
Old 31st July 2014
  #38
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
The part I'm curious about is whether or not a Flea Next sounds identical to a Flea 47 in cardioid as Flea claims. I have little need for a 47 w/ omni so the Next might be the ticket, but not if it's a compromise in any way.
That makes sense. I'm headed near FLEA early next year. I'll add your query to my list of must know questions for Milos and Ivan. :-)
Old 31st July 2014
  #39
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GeneHall's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Indeed he is and you're right to point that out. It just comes down to who you trust, which is a decision we all make for ourselves.

R
I have no qualms at all sending Ivan a fat wad of cash and waiting months for delivery.
I'm with you Mr Krizman, FLEA & Ivan are easily my most trusted, relied upon, and valued purveyor of gear I feel I must have.
Add his very honourable intentions with his dedication to Craft, easy choice to back their business.

First time I sent nearly 10k to a former Eastern bloc country' bank was a little weird but everything went perfectly.
Old 31st July 2014
  #40
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneHall View Post
First time I sent nearly 10k to a former Eastern bloc country' bank was a little weird but everything went perfectly.
I would never think twice about this, in fact not even once.
Old 31st July 2014
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post

It sounds like I'm slagging Vintage King and that's not my intent. I called them up and asked...

... snipped...

... so I don't want anyone to get the idea that the guy was not doing exactly what I asked him to do, which was give me his opinion on that question.
Like this

Respectable, fair and square !

Nice...

R.
Old 31st July 2014
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf Ebitsch View Post
Like this

Respectable, fair and square !

Nice...

R.
You can steer someone away from one thing and toward something else because you truly feel it's the best product, or you can do so because you have an ulterior agenda. Whether you agree or not with the way the conversation went, my point was that I have no reason to believe that an ulterior agenda was being followed. I think the rep just thinks the Wunder is the best, so he tried to steer me that way.
Old 31st July 2014
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by drpeacock View Post
I think the rep just thinks the Wunder is the best, so he tried to steer me that way.
Maybe, the Wunder CM7 with the standard M7 capsule is truly the 'greatest' U47 clone

R.
Old 8th August 2014
  #44
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
Wunder is my current fav U47 as well. I had a CM7 against two great 47s and in a few cases actually preferred the Wunder. I know that VK feels strongly about them as well so their opinion was likely an honest one.
Keep in mind that the Wunder CM7 is $6,350 versus the Flea 47 at $4,247 and the Flea 47 Next at $3,190.

I have not compared the regular Flea with the Next, but after comparing I did choose the Flea 47 over the Wunder CM7, and would have even if they were the same price.

Otoh, I think Wunder's CM49 is an astoundingly beautiful piece of work.

-R
Old 9th August 2014
  #45
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Unfortunately I didn't get to hear them back to back but I definitely felt the Wunder while very nice was on the brighter side of the spectrum which may be preferable to some. The Flea was little warmer with that traditional present u47 upper mids and again while not quite as smooth as the an outstanding vintage U47 I had the pleasure of using very nice too.

Bottom line, I think if you are looking for a great u47 tone the wunder, the tele USA, the flea or the original are all make fantastic choices. It's really splitting hairs at this level and again choosing the mic pre, comp etc will also affect the final tone so I would say get whatever mic you prefer and build a synergistic signal chain around it. There is no wrong answer here.
Old 9th August 2014
  #46
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Keep in mind that the Wunder CM7 is $6,350 versus the Flea 47 at $4,247 and the Flea 47 Next at $3,190.

I have not compared the regular Flea with the Next, but after comparing I did choose the Flea 47 over the Wunder CM7, and would have even if they were the same price.
Then what was the point of keeping the price in mind? Is this to say that the Flea is a better value, or that it's no surprise that I felt so strongly about the Wunder due to its price.

If we're dancing on that stage, why might want to mention that current U47s are nearly $20K though, as I mentioned above, I preferred the $5,500 (the price I paid at the time) to the vintage classic in some cases.

I think this goes to show that price is merely a very rough guide for quality, as always.
Old 9th August 2014
  #47
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palermo View Post
It's really splitting hairs at this level and again choosing the mic pre, comp etc will also affect the final tone so I would say get whatever mic you prefer and build a synergistic signal chain around it. There is no wrong answer here.
Yep!
Old 9th August 2014
  #48
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As somebody said, I have to stop reading this thread because I can afford any of these mics!

It is interesting that there is a $3100-$6400 range price points for three mics that are rated extremely positively as being significantly reminiscent of a vintage U47.

At the risk of being off topic,

are their opinions and experience by any of you FLEA/Wunder users as to how the Peluso and Pearlman "47 like" mics (or others) compare to the sounds of the FLEA/Wunder mics?

You know, it would be extremely interesting to record a male baritone singing a ballad, simultaneously with a lower price point U47 clone, (lets say the Peluso 2247LE) and a Wunder.

Then do two mixes, level matched, with one mic on one mix and then the other.

I would be really interested if people could hear a big difference as in a $4k difference.

By the way, I am not one of these people that doesnt think that higher quality (more expensive) doesn't equal better sound.

I'm just wondering if with certain types of products the price/value equation gets distorted?
Old 9th August 2014
  #49
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
it would be extremely interesting to record a male baritone singing a ballad, simultaneously with a lower price point U47 clone, (lets say the Peluso 2247LE) and a Wunder.

Then do two mixes, level matched, with one mic on one mix and then the other.

I would be really interested if people could hear a big difference as in a $4k difference.
Funny you mention that. The U47 I'd mentioned above that was compared to the Wunder CM7 and GTS was a mic which belonged to Peluso at one point before it found its way into our hands. It's one of the better 47s I've ever heard and no doubt an influence on the sound he was going for with his own version.

I have a couple of Wunders and also Peluso's top of the line 47 and although there are obvious differences I don't know that the average listener would pick up on any of it in a mix. That's significant to engineers but let's not forget that the "average listener" won't notice the difference between the world's best vintage U47 and a $1,000 knock-off.
Old 9th August 2014
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post

I have a couple of Wunders and also Peluso's top of the line 47 and although there are obvious differences I don't know that the average listener would pick up on any of it in a mix. That's significant to engineers but let's not forget that the "average listener" won't notice the difference between the world's best vintage U47 and a $1,000 knock-off.
True Elambo, but please don't forget, the vocals are the only thing a "average listener" are able to judge or criticize.
If the vocal sound better than usual, the "average listener" think the whole sound is more professional and better.

I'd like to think that the instrumentel sound is anyway all right.

In this case, a (expensive) and splendid microphone it's worth the money...
A great vocal mic is primary in the mic locker.

My two cents...

R.
Old 9th August 2014
  #51
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Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
Funny you mention that. The U47 I'd mentioned above that was compared to the Wunder CM7 and GTS was a mic which belonged to Peluso at one point before it found its way into our hands. It's one of the better 47s I've ever heard and no doubt an influence on the sound he was going for with his own version.

I have a couple of Wunders and also Peluso's top of the line 47 and although there are obvious differences I don't know that the average listener would pick up on any of it in a mix. That's significant to engineers but let's not forget that the "average listener" won't notice the difference between the world's best vintage U47 and a $1,000 knock-off.
Thats a very interesting response, in that I expected that most engineers would say "of course" you can hear the difference in a mix between a vocal with a vintage U47 vs a Peluso.

To be fair, I expect the more sparse the mix, the more the differences that could be heard.

What did you find to be the most obvious difference(s) between the vintage U47 and the "clone"(s)?

For me, and limited to be only able to listen to "shoot outs" on the internet, the difference I note are

1) how massive and present the lower end of the audio spectrum is reproduced by these higher quality mics and

2) the smoothness and musicality/naturalness of the mid and highs
Old 10th August 2014
  #52
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf Ebitsch View Post
A great vocal mic is primary in the mic locker.
I agree and have invested in a few very serious vocal mics because of this. My comment wasn't scientific, but I do believe that if you recorded a vocal performance with a classic 47 and a much cheaper version then played them back-to-back the average person would ask "what's the difference?" What I was getting at is that the lower priced clones come awfully close and close enough in many cases. Not every case.

Do *I* think they're close enough? Absolutely not. Though I have a few of these clones and find them very good I was still recently in the market for a vintage Neumann and willing to spend the $18k to get it.
Old 10th August 2014
  #53
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
What did you find to be the most obvious difference(s) between the vintage U47 and the "clone"(s)?

For me, and limited to be only able to listen to "shoot outs" on the internet, the difference I note are

1) how massive and present the lower end of the audio spectrum is reproduced by these higher quality mics and

2) the smoothness and musicality/naturalness of the mid and highs
It depends on the clone. The Wunder comes closer than many others I've heard. I've tried explaining the magic of a vintage 47 and usually fall short, resorting to such cop out terms as "magic" and "vintage ooze" because it's a tough thing to put into words. By comparison, there's an artificiality to the clones which the 47s don't have. I say by comparison because the clones might sound just fine, but then throw up the 47 and suddenly you think, "ok, I get it now. I don't know how to describe the difference I'm hearing but I like it." It goes beyond detail, though detail is involved, too.

To the point about a denser mix exhibiting less difference, I think that's true, and it also depends on the degree of life in the instrument. Voices, for instance, show the biggest differences because our ears are so attuned to them and when it's not genuine our minds call bullsh!t. Claps, though, might not matter. It was actually claps and snaps and cowbell where I preferred the Wunder to the 47.
Old 10th August 2014
  #54
Hi John,

It's a beautiful mic isn't it ! We loved the new Tube Tech MP2A pre amp with ours, and found it shines most on acoustic guitar, vocals and on clean to just overdriven electric guitar (with a ribbon and an MD421). 1073 also nice with it on some vocals.

Dave
Old 10th August 2014
  #55
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Plush's Avatar
Hello FleaMen,

I'm the original FLEA freak on GS and I'm here to tell you that Ivan and FLEA are the real thing.

Here I am running a FLEA 47 and some FLEA 49 mics with an ac701 tube.

Ivan is motivated to have the customer be happy and he is always reliable and truthful. His European approach to sales is based on integrity and honesty with a lack of agenda and zero cynicism.

There is only one USA dealer who knows anything about FLEA. That is FLEA's original dealer--Recording Services and Supply in Salina, KS. The main man there is Aaron Householter.
Aaron is super knowledgeable.

He has already done the work and the comparisons that you posters are seeking. Do you want a second opinion besides Ivan about FLEA Next 47?

Mr. Householter can give it to you.

The FLEA Next 47 is the same as the FLEA vintage sound.

It is very clear that FLEA is the world's No. 1 supplier of quality vintage copies.

Buy the FLEA Next 47 today and stop screwing around on Gearslutz and going a round and a round seeking opinions from people who don't know what they are talking about.

Buy it today.
Old 10th August 2014
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Stop screwing around on Gearslutz and going a round and a round seeking opinions from people who don't know what they are talking about.

Buy it today.
And that's that!

That's strange

R.
Old 10th August 2014
  #57
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Buy the FLEA Next 47 today and stop screwing around on Gearslutz and going a round and a round seeking opinions from people who don't know what they are talking about.
...said the guy with >5,500 "opinions" on Gearslutz.
Old 10th August 2014
  #58
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveAliveHQ View Post
it shines most on acoustic guitar, vocals and on clean to just overdriven electric guitar (with a ribbon and an MD421). 1073 also nice with it on some vocals.
Sounds like you've run it through its paces - can you speak to my question about the Next matching (i.e. equaling) the standard Flea in cardioid, if you've compared the two? This is a big question for me personally. I'm looking for real world feedback from anyone whose zeal isn't a hindrance and I doubt yours would be. I've had "insignificant" changes made to microphones which were touted as having no sonic effect but those insignificant changes actually made it a different mic. Having sent my Wunder GT in for such a minor tweaking of the polar pattern selector (intentionally making it a GTS, which is a very noticeable improvement) I've come to understand that what might seem irrelevant on paper can actually impart audible changes. I've also dealt with quite a lot of work on KM54s (and several other mics) and there's often a slight but noticeable change.
Old 10th August 2014
  #59
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Plush's Avatar
At least my opinion is an educated one. I know all about FLEA and I want to point FLEA people in the right direction so that they can receive direct use experience.

I wrote what I wrote because there was a lot of doubt and uncertainty expressed in this thread.

I am actually in the recording business.
Old 10th August 2014
  #60
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
At least my opinion is an educated one. I know all about FLEA and I want to point FLEA people in the right direction so that they can receive direct use experience.

I wrote what I wrote because there was a lot of doubt and uncertainty expressed in this thread.

I am actually in the recording business.
There's been question (and certainly not "a lot" of it) but not "doubt" as no participants of this thread have A/B'd the two models in question. Two known and reputable dealers have commented on the issue and both have said that there are differences. Good reason for "questions." Have you compared these together in person? If your opinion is educated on this specific topic please answer the specific question without generalizing about Flea, a brand which needs no additional support in this industry.

All of us 47 enthusiasts are "in the recording business" so that's irrelevant. I have zero interest in claims of education unless there's actual knowledge behind it and I've not seen a semblance of your knowledge, only the claim that no one else knows what they're talking about. Seems to me that most here in this thread have actual data to contribute, with the ironic exception of the person calling everyone else uneducated. Perhaps a bit of assistance for everyone seeking answers? [deleted by mod]

Last edited by [email protected]; 10th August 2014 at 10:34 PM.. Reason: let's not get personal
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