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Trinnov speaker optimizer Studio Monitors
Old 12th April 2014
  #1
Trinnov speaker optimizer

I'm testing the Trinnov optimizer, it's quite an amazing unit.

The room i'm at was designed by Andy Munro and it has some serious issues (I think they changed and removed some bits since he designed it).

Been listening to mixes I've done which all came out too bass heavy (moved to this room mid Jan).

I use NS10 (powered by Bryston 3B-SST) and Adam S4X-H.

Here are a couple of photos showing how my NS10 sound like with and without the trinnov (measurements are done with a special mic in the room)

The graphs show the following : (based on 3 bursts of pink noise from each speaker, mic was positioned where my head is)

Picture 1:
Top Graph is the actual sound of the NS10 in the room

Mid Graph is the corrected result

Bottom graph is what was done to correct it (Green is left speaker, Blue is right speaker)

Picture 2
Top Graph is phase reading.

Mid Graph is the corrected result

Bottom graph is what was done to correct it.






Has anyone in the mixing/recording world used this ?
Old 12th April 2014
  #2
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lowland's Avatar
All the best with it, Mac - hope you buy one, I don't think you'll regret it.

You may notice listening through the Trinnov how 'anchored' to the centre mono sources become - one of a number of things I like about mine.

Are you going through the box analogue or digital? I opted for analogue, and in spite of the fact that there's now an additional AD/DA combo in my mastering monitor chain (and the ME police will no doubt come to get me) I couldn't be happier.

Did you know that if you have a Griffin Powermate controller you can run the monitor control part of the Trinnov software in 0.5 dB steps (1dB without)? That may be more useful in mastering, rather than recording and mixing, though.

http://store.griffintechnology.com/powermate
Old 12th April 2014
  #3
Gear Addict
Very interested in this, which model are you using st2 pro? Do you use their microphone or your own? And does anyone know pricing in the US.
Old 12th April 2014
  #4
I'm still figuring it out and I'm listening to lots of different records.

I think that after 5 or 6 mixes I'll be a better judge but it certainly revealed a few problems I'm having here.

I got the MC at the moment but I think that I only need to ST2 (they told me it's the same system but with less outputs) only thing is, if I want to connect a sub (which I never had but I'm testing it as well due to the lack of bass in the room)
There are not enough outputs :(

I'm going Analog into it haven't tried it digitally.

Thanks for the controller tip

The change in sound is massive in my room, it's like having different speakers.

We used their microphone to calibrate.
Old 12th April 2014
  #5
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in the red's Avatar
 

i got one last year, it´s great! improved my mixes right away! one of my better investments i guess.
Old 13th April 2014
  #6
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lowland's Avatar
I think what Trinnov's doing is at least worthy of a look by anyone a) serious about recording, mixing and mastering and b) working with less than perfect monitoring and room. While not a cheap system, since mine arrived earlier this year I would say its already paid for itself in terms of speed of working and security of result

In its natural state my mastering room is one of the better spaces I've heard in decades of studio work and has few issues, but those are now effectively a thing of the past. One side-effect has been that I'd contemplated upgrading my monitors fairly soon, but the need to do that has moved back quite a bit since the ST2 came on the scene.
Old 13th April 2014
  #7
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Blues Bird's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
All the best with it, Mac - hope you buy one, I don't think you'll regret it.

You may notice listening through the Trinnov how 'anchored' to the centre mono sources become - one of a number of things I like about mine.

Are you going through the box analogue or digital? I opted for analogue, and in spite of the fact that there's now an additional AD/DA combo in my mastering monitor chain (and the ME police will no doubt come to get me) I couldn't be happier.

Did you know that if you have a Griffin Powermate controller you can run the monitor control part of the Trinnov software in 0.5 dB steps (1dB without)? That may be more useful in mastering, rather than recording and mixing, though.

http://store.griffintechnology.com/powermate
If you " go through the box analogue" you have one additional a/d conversion, right? Where do you see the benefit from this? And what about additional latency ?
Old 13th April 2014
  #8
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Bird View Post
If you " go through the box analogue" you have one additional a/d conversion, right? Where do you see the benefit from this? And what about additional latency ?
Yes, there's an additional converter set as I mentioned. You'd need to verify this for yourself, but in my opinion any change due to further conversion (and we're talking very good converters here) is of no consequence compared to the overall improvement. BTW I'm not the only one who thinks this, there's at least one one high-profile ME operating that way.

Latency is of the order of 10 milliseconds or so I would guess, likely not significant in mastering or mixing. When recording, anyone singing or playing in sync might need headphones or alternative speakers if performing in the main monitor space.
Old 13th April 2014
  #9
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Hjelmevold's Avatar
I really like my ST2 Pro. The default optimization settings give quite good results, but one factor that is important to be aware of with the default settings, is the pre-ringing from the FIR filters. It is easiest to notice when listening to recorded dialogue, isolated synth tones with sharp attack, or short waveform bursts. Or you could see it if you measure in RoomEQWizard or similar. (Sometimes you can also see it in the Impulse response curves in the Trinnov software, but often the vertical resolution is not high enough)

If you run the Optimizer in amplitude-only, low-range-only, or IIR-filter-only mode, there is no noticeable pre-ringing, but if you want the FIR filters and their phase optimization, you may need to spend some time trying out different optimization settings before you can get it so the pre-ringing becomes masked by other psychoacoustic factors. Try adjusting the "FIR filters length" (also relates to latency) or the "quantity of early reflections" setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Bird View Post
If you " go through the box analogue" you have one additional a/d conversion, right? Where do you see the benefit from this? And what about additional latency ?
I have experience with using both digital and analog inputs, and I can't say that I can notice the AD/DA. Latency from the AD/DA is much less than the latency from the optimization processing. Currently, my Trinnov latency is at 27ms, and the shortest latency I've been able to configure is 21ms. (You can examine your system latency on the "Optimizer Settings -> Runtime" or the "Processor -> Master" pages)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
Did you know that if you have a Griffin Powermate controller you can run the monitor control part of the Trinnov software in 0.5 dB steps (1dB without)?
I didn't know this. I currently use an SPL 2control after the Trinnov. Are you saying that the PowerMate USB controller actually works as a volume control in the Trinnov software, if you hook it up to the Trinnov USB port? Does it need to be configured before it can work in this way? I had a Trinnov in my living room for a while, but had to give up on the project because the other residents wanted a wireless volume control with less latency and more tactile response than using an iPad with VNC software… So if the PowerMate works well, I might look into some wireless USB products that work in a similar manner.
Old 13th April 2014
  #10
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hjelmevold View Post
Are you saying that the PowerMate actually works as a volume control in the Trinnov software, if you hook it up to the USB port i the back? Does it need to be configured before it can work in this way?
Yes to the USB port, and no configuration necessary: it's plug and play and worked straight away for me. To add or take away a half dB of monitor volume needs a light touch, but it doesn't take long to learn. You may find as I have that the Trinnov's display takes a while to update the dB setting, but it's not a deal-breaker.

I don't know if other controllers will work like this, but I would think there's a good chance - and if they don't I'm sure Trinnov would be happy to advise on setup.
Old 13th April 2014
  #11
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Hjelmevold's Avatar
Thanks, I'll contact Trinnov.
Old 13th April 2014
  #12
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Blues Bird's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
Yes, there's an additional converter set as I mentioned. You'd need to verify this for yourself, but in my opinion any change due to further conversion (and we're talking very good converters here) is of no consequence compared to the overall improvement. BTW I'm not the only one who thinks this, there's at least one one high-profile ME operating that way.

Latency is of the order of 10 milliseconds or so I would guess, likely not significant in mastering or mixing. When recording, anyone singing or playing in sync might need headphones or alternative speakers if performing in the main monitor space.
Thanks for the reply, what I don' t understand is, why it is not better to simply go out of your interface digitally into the Trinnov and spare the extra d/ a and a/d conversion step?
Old 13th April 2014
  #13
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Bird View Post
Thanks for the reply, what I don' t understand is, why it is not better to simply go out of your interface digitally into the Trinnov and spare the extra d/ a and a/d conversion step?
I was hoping you'd say that, shows you're thinking about this. I'm busy at the moment but will come back later with a proper reply.
Old 13th April 2014
  #14
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The trinnov seems like a great all in one package but it's by no means the only game in town. Another option is to just put together a dedicated computer and use something like acourate-

http://www.audiovero.de/en/

It's good enough for Bob Katz! Plus you get to pick your own converters, if your source is digital you only need the dacs.

Room/system tuning will always be a bit of a rabbit hole...High latencies aren't a good option for me, so with IIR filters I prefer to make adjustments in the crossover itself (using hypex DLCP for my bigs) based on spatial averaging over the listening area.

IK ARC is also a bit limited in it's adjustability, and it seems in my case that it doesn't understand constant directivity speakers, but none the less it does cover a lot of ground for the price. Not that the Trinnov isn't worth it, but just to put the other options out there.

IMO it's nuts not to have speakers under DSP control these days, it's not a DSP vs room treatment argument it's a DSP plus room treatment one.
Old 14th April 2014
  #15
Latency is a little annoying ... gotta figure out a workaround for recording.
Old 14th April 2014
  #16
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kosty's Avatar
The Trinnov is really incredible. I did boost the lows by a few db with the target curve option to better suite my listening preference.
The Griffin controller works without any configuration but I miss the option to switch through presets and routing. Also the wheel is quite sensitive.

With my first generation Trinnov the VLC connection (via ethernet cable and screen sharing on mac) lags after a few minutes of non activity. It takes around 10 seconds to change the first parameter. It works smoothly after the first input.

The biggest advantage is the dead center, which makes your monitors "disappear". You get the impression that you have a center box.
If you are using the analogue I/O you can split the signal before the Trinnov and merge it again after it with a monitor controller to avoid latency while recording (mine is around 18ms).
Old 14th April 2014
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Equalizing your speakers to solve acoustic problems.. Does anybody around here knows what he is doing? And to think this is the "high end" section.. * sigh *
Old 14th April 2014
  #18
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Blues Bird's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anseo View Post
Equalizing your speakers to solve acoustic problems.. Does anybody around here knows what he is doing? And to think this is the "high end" section.. * sigh *

Hmm, i am not quite sure whether this would qualify for the top ten of the most thoughtful remarks here on GS...
Old 15th April 2014
  #19
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Bird View Post
Thanks for the reply, what I don' t understand is, why it is not better to simply go out of your interface digitally into the Trinnov and spare the extra d/ a and a/d conversion step?
I can only speak for myself, but two reasons I went analogue are firstly that when I heard it I was happy with the sound. I've learned to trust my instinct with audio: in spite of my initial scepticism this works well and is easy to manage, being the simplest way to add to my setup.

Secondly, there's a potential issue in mastering with the typically hot signals when taking the digital route. The DSP the Trinnov provides is likely to cause clipping unless input gain is reduced, potentially causing more complication and problems than it solves. I haven't tried the digital path, and while there's no reason to think it can't be made to work as well as one would want, for the moment at least I'm fine as things are.
Old 15th April 2014
  #20
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
I've learned to trust my instinct with audio:
Those few words gave me great pleasure to read. Somewhat of an oddity on here nowadays, doing that.

Just watch out for the 'you have used more conversion trips than you should-Police'...they'll come soon. Since the 'eq on the speakers doesn't solve room issues, so this product must be ****e-Police' is already here, too....
Old 15th April 2014
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
I can only speak for myself, but two reasons I went analogue are firstly that when I heard it I was happy with the sound. I've learned to trust my instinct with audio: in spite of my initial scepticism this works well and is easy to manage, being the simplest way to add to my setup.

Secondly, there's a potential issue in mastering with the typically hot signals when taking the digital route. The DSP the Trinnov provides is likely to cause clipping unless input gain is reduced, potentially causing more complication and problems than it solves. I haven't tried the digital path, and while there's no reason to think it can't be made to work as well as one would want, for the moment at least I'm fine as things are.
I'm definitely a whatever works guy, but no matter the crest factor of the music an extra ADC stage will not add to the internal dynamic range. Of course you may still need to digitally attenuate the signal, but even if the math is *only* 24 bit straight through it's still a 144dB to work with there.

In my mind I was apprehensive about this too with the DLCP (I'm using the volume knob from an avid omni fed via spdif). But after messing with it, it takes astonishingly poor gain staging for the digital to be causing problems here.
Old 15th April 2014
  #22
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Those few words gave me great pleasure to read. Somewhat of an oddity on here nowadays, doing that.

Just watch out for the 'you have used more conversion trips than you should-Police'...they'll come soon. Since the 'eq on the speakers doesn't solve room issues, so this product must be ****e-Police' is already here, too....


I spent at least a decade when I started as an engineer/producer sometimes ignoring what common sense was yelling at me, and was punished for it every time. I now treat instinctual insights as the precious pearls they are.

But perhaps that's the way it goes: Rick Hall, founder and producer at Fame Studios, Muscle Shoals, said something in the recent MS documentary that resonated, words to the effect of 'no-one in the music business ever achieved anything without getting their ass kicked'.
Old 15th April 2014
  #23
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I'm definitely a whatever works guy, but no matter the crest factor of the music an extra ADC stage will not add to the internal dynamic range. Of course you may still need to digitally attenuate the signal, but even if the math is *only* 24 bit straight through it's still a 144dB to work with there.

In my mind I was apprehensive about this too with the DLCP (I'm using the volume knob from an avid omni fed via spdif). But after messing with it, it takes astonishingly poor gain staging for the digital to be causing problems here.
I agree with both your well-put posts in this thread - other systems are available, and all-digital room/speaker solutions can no doubt work well.

If I should find myself in the fortunate position of possessing a conversion-in-speaker arrangement such as that incorporated into the outstanding Grimm LS1 I'll be the first to knock on digital's door, but I'm fine for now.

LS1 | GrimmAudio

AudioMedia: Grimm Audio LS1 and LS1s subwoofer
Old 15th April 2014
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anseo View Post
Equalizing your speakers to solve acoustic problems.. Does anybody around here knows what he is doing? And to think this is the "high end" section.. * sigh *
Even augspurgers generally have had eq for room tuning, pretty sure some *high end* mixes have been done on them. All the dip switches with shelving filters on the back of active monitors are room eq, there to (rather poorly) adjust for the difference in full space vs half space loading depending on placement. Any flush/soffit mounted speaker absolutely needs to be adjusted for it's new baffle size, and the baffle step correction in every crossover is...you guessed it; corrective eq.

While it's altruistic to think that *everything* could be addressed with treatment to the room, in practice it is exceedingly unrealistic (as in roughly impossible) especially where we have a lot of gear (that affects acoustics) that we need to do our jobs. FWIW I don't think anyone here is advocating DSP instead of room treatment.
Old 15th April 2014
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
I agree with both your well-put posts in this thread - other systems are available, and all-digital room/speaker solutions can no doubt work well.

If I should find myself in the fortunate position of possessing a conversion-in-speaker arrangement such as that incorporated into the outstanding Grimm LS1 I'll be the first to knock on digital's door, but I'm fine for now.

LS1 | GrimmAudio

AudioMedia: Grimm Audio LS1 and LS1s subwoofer
Ah yeah, the hypex dlcp is essentially the brain of the Grimmaudio ls1, they also use Ncore amps. Bruno insists they are somewhat different but everything about the specs is copy/paste, and all the guts of the LS1 are built by hypex for Grimmaudio. So more or less that's the DSP/DACs I'm using. Works very well!

http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-...6-32/dlcp.html
Old 15th April 2014
  #26
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Ah yeah, the hypex dlcp is essentially the brain of the Grimmaudio ls1, they also use Ncore amps. Bruno insists they are somewhat different but everything about the specs is copy/paste, and all the guts of the LS1 are built by hypex for Grimmaudio. So more or less that's the DSP/DACs I'm using. Works very well!

Hypex Electronics BV - DLCP
An interesting bit of background, thank you.
Old 15th April 2014
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowland View Post
An interesting bit of background, thank you.
Sure-

The tweeter Ncore product isn't commercially available FWIW, it's a current source Ncore, using the DSP to correct. I wish they would make that one available, but not yet it seems...
Old 15th April 2014
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by anseo View Post
Equalizing your speakers to solve acoustic problems.. Does anybody around here knows what he is doing? And to think this is the "high end" section.. * sigh *
Is that the best you can come out with ? being your first comment in 4 years ?

Have you tried it ? I'm looking for info from people who are working with it for better of for worse.
Old 15th April 2014
  #29
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lowland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac black View Post
I'm looking for info from people who are working with it for better of for worse.
No question, for better here.
Old 16th April 2014
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

I was using V1 for quite some time in a room that is treated,but due to its dimensions still has some problems.
long story short, I took it out of my chain as I always thought it's giving me a pretty good frequency response when measuring with REW, but what I heard always didnt feel right to me.
making bassheavy electronic music my mayor issue with the corrected signal was lack of bass, even though REW showed a flat frequency response down to 30hz using ATC SCM50S + sub. maybe i was just used to having more bass before the correction, however, i lifted the bass in the target curve.
main problem when using it with the AD/DA, you go out of your daw close to 0dbfs and then that thing measures it has to lift let's say 100hz by 5db. boom, output distorted.
when listening to some loud tracks through itunes things even distorted and i had to bring the digital input of the trinnov dowm to -8 to -10db to be safe on it's output after processing.
also, for some reason my mixes didnt translate very well. my chain was Apogee Symphony digital out->trinnov digital in->trinnov digital out->crane song avocet->speakers, meaning that all other speakers connected to the avocet get the same processing from the trinnov, which is nonsens. I tried working with a small touchscreen and switching programs on the trinnov for different monitors + switching the monitors on the avocet just got on my nerves.
I know you can avoid that with a different routing but i didnt want to have the extra latency when using analog i/o. And when using it after the monitor controler it always gets the volume you set on the monitor controller, which also feels wrong to me.
as said, apart from making my workflow complicated, i never felt right having that thing in my monitoring chain, so i decided to kind of DIY rebuilt my studio and just get used to it.
After that i read another thread on here about the trinnov where people said they're happy using it with just bass correction up to 300HZ as the full mode leads to phase issues i decided to give it another chance but it still felt weird to me.
also, I don't know about the changes in software V2, I saw they're talking about even correcting room modes on their homepage, what I can tell you is it doesnt really change your reverb time in the room. so if something is wrong with that, you will maybe get a better frequency responce, but problems with reverbation time will still be the same, according to REW.


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