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AEA N22 stereo pair or R88?
Old 27th March 2016
  #31
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john caldwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikin View Post
you can do M/S


From the AEA website....

R88 mk2
Passive stereo ribbon mic for XY and MS
You and swafford are correct of course, but I'll confess that I've never thought of the 88's elements as true fig-8. Wes Dooley makes a big point of how the front and rear of, the R84 for example, are differently voiced. Wes uses, as you know, the "this side and that side" discussion to convey that the front and rear are differently voiced. Certainly our 84 and 92 mics don't sound the same from each side. So it's interesting to consider the R88 in the M/S context, and wonder of the R/L information might not be symmetric if the R88 were used in M/S configuration.

Either way, I'm grateful for this discussion, and will set up the R88 in Blumelein next drum session. I'm afraid that I've slipped into the lazy habit, perhaps like other modern folk, to not worry about either mono-capability of OH mics, or even to worry about some phasing in OH miss because I pan the OH pretty widely. Not defending my practice, just admitting...

For those hanging the R88, either in M/S or Blumelein, how do you suspend the mic physically? I'll guess you don't allow the one end of the unit, the "top", to cantilever the weight of the R88 mic body.

Thank you all.

John Caldwell
Old 27th March 2016
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
kikin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post
You and swafford are correct of course, but I'll confess that I've never thought of the 88's elements as true fig-8. Wes Dooley makes a big point of how the front and rear of, the R84 for example, are differently voiced. Wes uses, as you know, the "this side and that side" discussion to convey that the front and rear are differently voiced. Certainly our 84 and 92 mics don't sound the same from each side. So it's interesting to consider the R88 in the M/S context, and wonder of the R/L information might not be symmetric if the R88 were used in M/S configuration.

Either way, I'm grateful for this discussion, and will set up the R88 in Blumelein next drum session. I'm afraid that I've slipped into the lazy habit, perhaps like other modern folk, to not worry about either mono-capability of OH mics, or even to worry about some phasing in OH miss because I pan the OH pretty widely. Not defending my practice, just admitting...

For those hanging the R88, either in M/S or Blumelein, how do you suspend the mic physically? I'll guess you don't allow the one end of the unit, the "top", to cantilever the weight of the R88 mic body.

Thank you all.

John Caldwell
here is a picture of my last session...
Attached Thumbnails
AEA N22 stereo pair or R88?-image.jpg  
Old 28th March 2016
  #33
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john caldwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikin View Post
here is a picture of my last session...
Kiki, your photo thickens the R88 plot even further in my mind. Your image depicts, in my view, that microphone left/right information - whether the R88 be in M/S or Blumelein configuration - is in Drum Kit Front/Back orientation, rather than in Drum Kit Left/Right. Do you not have the major axis of the R88 perpendicular to, rather than parallel to, to the drummer's sign of sight in the session you've photographed?

Not looking to be critical in any way - just seeking to learn from your experience.

Many thanks,

John Caldwell
Old 28th March 2016
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
kikin's Avatar
John, I used this positioning because i am aligning the kick and the snare with the OH so when you play the tracks kick and snare sounds dead center (its not physically center, it's more an illusion of being centered). When you do the normal center of the kit OH it does not matter which technique you use either the snare sounds a little off or the kick sounds a little of center. I don't always use this technique as i don't always have the r88 available. BTW i neve use M/S on anything i don't like the technique. (is not that is not usefull is i just don't like it).



Quote:
Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post
Kiki, your photo thickens the R88 plot even further in my mind. Your image depicts, in my view, that microphone left/right information - whether the R88 be in M/S or Blumelein configuration - is in Drum Kit Front/Back orientation, rather than in Drum Kit Left/Right. Do you not have the major axis of the R88 perpendicular to, rather than parallel to, to the drummer's sign of sight in the session you've photographed?

Not looking to be critical in any way - just seeking to learn from your experience.

Many thanks,

John Caldwell
Old 28th March 2016
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfurry View Post
I'm suggesting try 4-5 feet above drummer splitting snare and bass drum from behind the drum stool. Honestly, the Mic is phenomenal anywhere in front as well.
Agree with this....above the drummer's head. Image is unreal.
Old 28th March 2016
  #36
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swafford's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post
You and swafford are correct of course, but I'll confess that I've never thought of the 88's elements as true fig-8. For those hanging the R88, either in M/S or Blumelein, how do you suspend the mic physically? I'll guess you don't allow the one end of the unit, the "top", to cantilever the weight of the R88 mic body.

Thank you all.

John Caldwell
I don't really think about the technical specifics of M/S or Blumelein, I just use what sounds best for what I do. With my lower ceiling, having a lobe point straight up was a concern, but even when I had a cloud up there or just using it in a room recording a couple players, I've always preferred the realism I hear with Blumelein. It just sounds right.

I suspend the M88 so the logo is pointing at what I consider the center of the image - somewhere between the kick and snare with the length of the mic (sort of, for imagining purposes) perpendicular to the kick drum head. I'm not concerned if the kick and snare are dead center. Obviously with this placement, the snare's going to be a bit more on one side, because, well, it really is a bit more on one side. With a bit of a snare mic and mono FOK mixed in, I've never found it to be an issue.
Old 28th March 2016
  #37
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kikin's Avatar
There is no right or wrong way to do it. Just be guided by your ears. Whatever works my friend.


Old 28th March 2016
  #38
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john caldwell's Avatar
Yes swafford, your comments make sense. It's interesting to see the R88 orientation in kaki's session photo. As I read his image, the R88 is parallel to the kick drum head, or basically perpendicular to the orientation you use. Thanks for your thoughts.

John Caldwell
Old 28th March 2016
  #39
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john caldwell's Avatar
Sorry kikin, just saw you chimed in too. Do I have your photo right: The long axis of the R88 is parallel to the kick drum head, and perpendicular to the drummer's line of sight?

John-
Old 28th March 2016
  #40
Gear Maniac
 
kikin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by john caldwell View Post
Yes swafford, your comments make sense. It's interesting to see the R88 orientation in kaki's session photo. As I read his image, the R88 is parallel to the kick drum head, or basically perpendicular to the orientation you use. Thanks for your thoughts.

John Caldwell

This will guide you how i see it. But i don't always do it this way.....

Old 29th March 2016
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kikin View Post
This will guide you how i see it. But i don't always do it this way.....

I position my R88 the same way. I use that same axis for spaced pair as well. I will say my room at home is just 9ft, and I've yet to be totally happy with my overheads here regardless of the mics I've tried. I definitely prefer how the r88 sounds when I've used it in bigger rooms. I've gone back and forth with having a cloud over my kit at home. I currently have some 2" GIk panels over the kit, but honestly I think they suck the life out of the overheads. With nothing on the ceiling, there's a little flutter that isn't great but over all the kit sounds better. I think I'm going to experiment with some diffusion/scattering instead of, or maybe with the absorption.
Old 29th March 2016
  #42
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GreenNeedle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dankin View Post
I position my R88 the same way. I use that same axis for spaced pair as well. I will say my room at home is just 9ft, and I've yet to be totally happy with my overheads here regardless of the mics I've tried. I definitely prefer how the r88 sounds when I've used it in bigger rooms. I've gone back and forth with having a cloud over my kit at home. I currently have some 2" GIk panels over the kit, but honestly I think they suck the life out of the overheads. With nothing on the ceiling, there's a little flutter that isn't great but over all the kit sounds better. I think I'm going to experiment with some diffusion/scattering instead of, or maybe with the absorption.
Regardless of your space take a minute to walk around with the snare and find the fullest sounding spot while hitting it, there will be a spot where it has the most bottom. Always use that spot for the snare. Then circle the snare position with the floor tom doing the same, mark the fullest spot. Plunk it down and set kit up. Now your OH's will sound better. For damping on ceiling just dampen a 3'x3' section directly above the mic. Then you can use fig 8 for Oh's and not kill all the highs.

I run the R88 pretty close to the kit for live gigs all the time, same orientation as above and 6" above the drummers head. Sounds awesome.
Old 29th March 2016
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
ljona's Avatar
 

My trick is to place it in front of drum kit as amb mic in blumlein position and flip the phase on side as you do in m/s position.
For me, the stereo image gets more excited that way
Old 30th March 2016
  #44
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I like that idea a lot- I'll try that next time instead of defaulting to my usual spot. Nice one!
-Sean

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenNeedle View Post
Regardless of your space take a minute to walk around with the snare and find the fullest sounding spot while hitting it, there will be a spot where it has the most bottom. Always use that spot for the snare. Then circle the snare position with the floor tom doing the same, mark the fullest spot. Plunk it down and set kit up. Now your OH's will sound better. For damping on ceiling just dampen a 3'x3' section directly above the mic. Then you can use fig 8 for Oh's and not kill all the highs.

I run the R88 pretty close to the kit for live gigs all the time, same orientation as above and 6" above the drummers head. Sounds awesome.
Old 30th March 2016
  #45
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Drumhead57's Avatar
Mic bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by kikin View Post
here is a picture of my last session...
Hi kikin, can you tell me how you're hanging the R88 off the boom? Is that just a straight mic bar? thnx
Old 30th March 2016
  #46
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
I heard the N22 at a shoot out last year and I was quite impressed. Since you already have a pair of R84s especially, I'd say go with the N22s. Actually from my experience I'd get the N22 first even if you didn't have the R84s.
Old 30th March 2016
  #47
Gear Maniac
 
kikin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumhead1957 View Post
Hi kikin, can you tell me how you're hanging the R88 off the boom? Is that just a straight mic bar? thnx
hi drumhead i use the swivel with a atlas stand.
Old 30th March 2016
  #48
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Drumhead57's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kikin View Post
hi drumhead i use the swivel with a atlas stand.
Good choice
Old 10th April 2016
  #49
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SammyAEA's Avatar
 

Hi Guys,

This is a very cool thread with some great pictures! Glad you all are enjoying your R88s!

I wanted to clarify something about the R88, N8, and R84. The N8 is essentially one phantom-powered half of the R88. The R88 and N8 have a very similar motor and the same acoustical mesh. The R84 is a very different design from the R88. The R84 has a different puff shield, grill, and a very different motor shape than the R88 and the N8. If you look at the outside grills of the R84 and R88, you can see they are a very different style from one another while the N8 mesh is the same as the R88.

In terms of sound, the R88 and N8 are very open and more honest to the room than the R84. The R84 has a character to it that I consider more colored than the R88 and N8. Many of the applications that you would use either the R88/N8 or R84 overlap with one another, but they capture the source in very different ways. When I'm choosing between our mics, I normally make my decision based on whether I want to capture the sound of the instrument in the room in a very natural way, or if I want more color and a specific tonality to it. Most of the time, either choice would work. It just comes down to the sound you are looking for.

The N22 is a very different design from all three of them. The N22 has a pop screen built in that acts as a mechanical high pass filter and it has very different motor design from any of our other mics. This is because most ribbon mics have a great deal of proximity effect and we wanted a mic that you could put right up against a guitar amp or kick drum, and it would sound natural. Unlike our other ribbon mics, the N22 has an equal treble to bass ratio from about 2 - 6 inches away. When you start to pull the N22 back further than it's sweet spot, it can sound a bit thin depending on the situation. But when you put an R84, R88, and N8 right up against a guitar amp, also depending on the situation, you may find yourself with a bit too much proximity effect and bass build up. Some people like the proximity effect on their ribbons to beef up their sound, while others do not and want to capture the true sound of their amp from up close. Both methods work just fine, it's just figuring out which one captures the sound you're going for on each particular song!
Old 12th April 2016
  #50
Gear Head
 

Thanks for the insight Sammy. I have the R84, R88 and N22. These mics have changed the way I think about recording. Just phenomenal sounding gear. Keep up the great work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyAEA View Post
Hi Guys,

This is a very cool thread with some great pictures! Glad you all are enjoying your R88s!

I wanted to clarify something about the R88, N8, and R84. The N8 is essentially one phantom-powered half of the R88. The R88 and N8 have a very similar motor and the same acoustical mesh. The R84 is a very different design from the R88. The R84 has a different puff shield, grill, and a very different motor shape than the R88 and the N8. If you look at the outside grills of the R84 and R88, you can see they are a very different style from one another while the N8 mesh is the same as the R88.

In terms of sound, the R88 and N8 are very open and more honest to the room than the R84. The R84 has a character to it that I consider more colored than the R88 and N8. Many of the applications that you would use either the R88/N8 or R84 overlap with one another, but they capture the source in very different ways. When I'm choosing between our mics, I normally make my decision based on whether I want to capture the sound of the instrument in the room in a very natural way, or if I want more color and a specific tonality to it. Most of the time, either choice would work. It just comes down to the sound you are looking for.

The N22 is a very different design from all three of them. The N22 has a pop screen built in that acts as a mechanical high pass filter and it has very different motor design from any of our other mics. This is because most ribbon mics have a great deal of proximity effect and we wanted a mic that you could put right up against a guitar amp or kick drum, and it would sound natural. Unlike our other ribbon mics, the N22 has an equal treble to bass ratio from about 2 - 6 inches away. When you start to pull the N22 back further than it's sweet spot, it can sound a bit thin depending on the situation. But when you put an R84, R88, and N8 right up against a guitar amp, also depending on the situation, you may find yourself with a bit too much proximity effect and bass build up. Some people like the proximity effect on their ribbons to beef up their sound, while others do not and want to capture the true sound of their amp from up close. Both methods work just fine, it's just figuring out which one captures the sound you're going for on each particular song!
Old 7th October 2017
  #51
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyAEA View Post
Hi Guys,

This is a very cool thread with some great pictures! Glad you all are enjoying your R88s!

I wanted to clarify something about the R88, N8, and R84. The N8 is essentially one phantom-powered half of the R88. The R88 and N8 have a very similar motor and the same acoustical mesh. The R84 is a very different design from the R88. The R84 has a different puff shield, grill, and a very different motor shape than the R88 and the N8. If you look at the outside grills of the R84 and R88, you can see they are a very different style from one another while the N8 mesh is the same as the R88.
Could you clarify something for me? I heard the R88 in a studio a while ago on overheads and I loved it! How accurate could I replicate the R88's stereo sound with the N8 stereo kit? I prefer the flexibilty the two N8's would give me, and since they are a mono version of the R88, two of them in a blumlein set up should give me that R88 sound, right?
Old 7th October 2017
  #52
Here for the gear
 
SammyAEA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirky View Post
Could you clarify something for me? I heard the R88 in a studio a while ago on overheads and I loved it! How accurate could I replicate the R88's stereo sound with the N8 stereo kit? I prefer the flexibilty the two N8's would give me, and since they are a mono version of the R88, two of them in a blumlein set up should give me that R88 sound, right?
Hi Kirky,

That's great you enjoyed the R88! I'd love to hear what you tracked with it.

A pair of N8s in Blumlein will sound almost identical to an R88. I use both mics interchangeably in my own recordings. I love the ease of setting up an R88, but the flexibility of the N8s and being able to use them in Blumlein or pull them apart for spaced overheads, sections, and individual instruments would be my choice if I could only have one or the other.

When we developed the N8, the purpose was to make a mono R88 that you could use with any preamp and get into tighter spaces. Since the N8s are active, they'll have a more consistent sound when using a variety of preamps whereas the R88's tonality will change a bit depending on the impedance of the preamp. But with a high-impedance preamp (like the RPQ2), an R88 will sound pretty much identical to a pair of N8s.

Sammy
Old 7th October 2017
  #53
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyAEA View Post
Hi Kirky,

A pair of N8s in Blumlein will sound almost identical to an R88. I use both mics interchangeably in my own recordings. I love the ease of setting up an R88, but the flexibility of the N8s and being able to use them in Blumlein or pull them apart for spaced overheads, sections, and individual instruments would be my choice if I could only have one or the other.
That's awesome to hear! I will then also opt for the flexibility the stereo N8's will offer me. Thanks for your advice and quick response, really appreciate that!
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