The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
16 d/a for summing? Burl, horus, symphony, ???
Old 17th October 2013
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

16 d/a for summing? Burl, horus, symphony, ???

I am very interested in the merging horus. I was almost set on the mothership, until i realized i would either need protools hd, or to add the madi card, as well as an rme madi card. When i found out about the horus using ethernet , lets just say it makes a lot of sense to me. Also the option of getting in to pyramix, and dsd multitracking sounds good.

The symphony is attractive because of the price.


I dont know, i tend to like having one thing that is very very very good, rather than several good things.

Hmmmm???

Will the horus , and mothership hold up over time, or is there about to be new options coming to market?
Old 17th October 2013
  #2
Gear Addict
 
xcskier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
I am very interested in the merging horus ...option of getting in to pyramix, and dsd multitracking sounds good.

The symphony is attractive because of the price.

Will the horus ... hold up over time, or is there about to be new options coming to market?
The Symphony isn't in the same league. I would consider looking at RME in that ballpark.

If you are looking for best 'Bang for Buck' converters (but still high level mastering grade), Mytek 8x192 has DSD option capability. (I'm selling mine if you are interested, PM me.)

Transcendent converter level, you get into:
Prism does DSD. Ed Meitner is harder to get a hold of these days...

We have DAD ax24 and they are top. Option for DSD/DXD. The new DAD ax32 should be available now, or soon.

For both interface and top converters, I definitely see Horus as the future. (checkout GS thread)
Merging Horus
Old 17th October 2013
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
The Symphony isn't in the same league. I would consider looking at RME in that ballpark.

If you are looking for best 'Bang for Buck' converters (but still high level mastering grade), Mytek 8x192 has DSD option capability. (I'm selling mine if you are interested, PM me.)

Transcendent converter level, you get into:
Prism does DSD. Ed Meitner is harder to get a hold of these days...

We have DAD ax24 and they are top. Option for DSD/DXD. The new DAD ax32 should be available now, or soon.

For both interface and top converters, I definitely see Horus as the future. (checkout link)
Merging Horus

I think the glowing blue horus light is doing something to me.

I am also interested in the dad. Can you compare the ax24 with the mothership?

The ax32 is delayed, i wonder if it will sound better than horus.

If you have the high grade horus card you could record dsd, or pcm with same converter?
Old 17th October 2013
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Chiming back in , i just realized that the mothership has a madi version , so no additional module to purchase

So burl with 4x16 would be 7600$

While horus with 8x16 would be about 12000$ ( but this gives you 4 more ins, dsd function, 8 mic preamps, and an ethernet interface ) ...... Another bad4 card would be 1800, and the preamps are what, a 2000 dollar value? ......... This puts the prices pretty close, and thats before you consider the high resolution conversion, ethernet connection, and the glowing blue light.

Hmmmmm
Old 17th October 2013
  #5
Gear Addict
 
xcskier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
I think the glowing blue horus light is doing something to me.

I am also interested in the dad. Can you compare the ax24 with the mothership?

The ax32 is delayed, i wonder if it will sound better than horus.

If you have the high grade horus card you could record dsd, or pcm with same converter?
I don't know the mothership converters, but many high-end mastering studios use DAD Ax24.

Premium AD8P and DA8P Horus modules also do PCM single to 8x sample rates (384Khz) and DSD/DXD. The only other converter I know that does this is DAD.

You can have Horus with no analogue-In modules, just DA if you like. Also the great thing is you don't need to return to dealer or factory to add more modules. I may have that issue with AX24 inputs.

Both Horus and the new DADax32 will have MADI and AES as standard on the unit. DAD: the Dante interface is extra, and will not carry DSD/DXD. (DAD uses the MADI for DSD/DXD on Ax32. Ax24 can send DSD via other options as well.)

Horus and DAD converters are in the same league. Plush (see the Horus link I pasted above) gave a very interesting comparison between his DAD Ax24 and the Horus. I agree with his Ax24 analogy. I need to get my new Pyramix 8 DAW up and running before I spend much time learning the sound of the Horus.
Old 17th October 2013
  #6
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
I haven't heard the Horus system yet.love to. had the Avid and Symphony in here for thorough testing.
they are both very good boxes.
yet I ended up with the Mothership.
I absolutely love how it sounds on my console.
everything tracked through it coming back up on the faders just sounds right to me.
initially I was after 100% transparent and the Avids are going in that direction but its the first conversion I've used were imo everything goes in ends up sounding a little better on the other end.
Old 18th October 2013
  #7
Gear Addict
 
xcskier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
I think the glowing blue horus light is doing something to me.
You know, not to complicate your life too much, the DAD also has a pretty stunning glowing Blue Light.
Old 18th October 2013
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
You know, not to complicate your life too much, the DAD also has a pretty stunning glowing Blue Light.
Yes it does

Im sure i would be thrilled to own it. The blue light is actually bigger and brighter on the dad is it not....haha

Have you had a chance to use the asio drivers on the horus?
Old 21st October 2013
  #9
Gear Nut
 
ntpjl's Avatar
 

Hi guys

First of all, the AX32 is now finally shipping . It's been a long and arduous journey, but we can now proudly say that the AX32 is finally available. So don't hesitate to drop me a PM if you want to test it.

So how does the AX32 compare with the AX24? The short version is basically that we have made some improvements on both the A/D and D/A side. To give you an idea, one of our customers have just completed the recording of Wagners The Ring using an AX32 in addition to their existing AX24. One of their comments was: "I think that this unit is even more transparent than the AX24. I find it more natural and I literally forgot all about it during the recording."

And then I guess you all want to know how it compares with the Horus? Some customers have already done shoot-outs between the AX32 and the Horus so we have an idea of how they compare. We would however like to see some more shoot-outs and get more feed-back before we conclude anything, but so far we are quite pleased with the response .

Regarding the configuration of the AX32, then it always includes ProTools HD interface (can emulate both HD IO and HD MADI) with 64 channels, electrical MADI and 8 AES/EBU. As options you can get a 64ch Dante IP module and a dual optical MADI interface. DSD/DXD is supported on the MADI interface as standard, so it doesn't cost you extra. As xcskier points out, there is currently a limit of 192k for the Dante IP interface. On the analogue side, you can have up to 32 channels, either A/D or D/A in steps of 8 channels (so e.g. 32 in/ 0 out, 24 in / 8 out, 16 in/16 out, etc.).

For those out there who don't need high-end A/D or D/A conversion, but just want to pimp your studio with some stunning glowing blue light and a shinny golden front plate, you can even get the AX32 as a "digital-only" unit, that you can use instead of e.g. an HD MADI.

@xcskier: the AX24 is field-upgradeable (as long as you know how to handle a screwdriver), so just drop me an e-mail (I think you have my details) or PM with the serial number and a list of what you want to upgrade to, then I'll make sure you get a quote for it.

We reduced the price of the AX24 about a year ago, so you are now able to get either a brand new AX24 or upgrades at very reasonable prices.
Old 21st October 2013
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
I have pimped my studio, ntpjl!

Yes that gold front panel with the blue light is really DOING IT FOR US here!

( the main pimping that is going on is with the SOUND!! Fantastic!!)

Congratulations on the release of your new AX32.
with thanks,

Plush
Old 22nd October 2013
  #11
Gear Addict
 
MrChick's Avatar
 

This year I tried the AX24 and the ADA II (IZ). The AX24 is a very good sound unit but the ADA II won.

Regards.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChick View Post
This year I tried the AX24 and the ADA II (IZ). The AX24 is a very good sound unit but the ADA II won.

Regards.
Maybe the ax32 will sound better than ax24, so its possible the ada ii would be closer with the ax32?

I guess the choice should be sound preference first, but i will say that the features on the horus are more attractive to me. The ip interface, and dsd384, plus mic pres. I admit it feels a little funny the idea of horus having pre amps, it seems like a converter without pre's might be better due to the added cost and all. I guess the true test comes in the sound of the finished mix. If dsd can get you there a little better, that could make the difference to me. But if the sound is better on the dad, or iZ i would rather have that than a higher res of a sound i dont like as well.

I will say, the ada ii meters look very nice.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #13
Gear Nut
 

Try the Lynx Aurora 16? Quite cheap compared to some high end converters but still great
Old 22nd October 2013
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppanton321 View Post
Try the Lynx Aurora 16? Quite cheap compared to some high end converters but still great
I wish lynx would have announced that they put their hilo design converters in to a expandable system. I imagine they must be working on it right now.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #15
Gear Addict
 
MrChick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
Maybe the ax32 will sound better than ax24, so its possible the ada ii would be closer with the ax32?

I guess the choice should be sound preference first, but i will say that the features on the horus are more attractive to me. The ip interface, and dsd384, plus mic pres. I admit it feels a little funny the idea of horus having pre amps, it seems like a converter without pre's might be better due to the added cost and all. I guess the true test comes in the sound of the finished mix. If dsd can get you there a little better, that could make the difference to me. But if the sound is better on the dad, or iZ i would rather have that than a higher res of a sound i dont like as well.

I will say, the ada ii meters look very nice.
The Dad distribuitor said me the converters in the AX32 and AX24 are the same, so I went with the IZ for the sound. If you need IP audio always you can attach a Rednet to de Madi port in the ADA II for Dante network.. The DSD wasn't sense for me, but this is my case.

The Horus and the DAD look very usefull for location recording. My converter is in my studio with my pres etc, so...

Regards,
Old 25th October 2013
  #16
Gear Nut
 
ntpjl's Avatar
 

Thanks for all the interesting comments, so let me give our perspective on things.

Let me start in the philosophical corner. At DAD, our philosophy is that a converter should be as faithful as possible to the artist(s). So our aim is to make a converter that is as clear, transparent and neutral as possible. We don't want to add any "colouring" or "enhancements" (or whetever other manufacturers call it) to the sound, the reason being that we believe it is up to the creative skills of the sound engineer and/or producer to create or design the sound they want to add to the recording. That is after all what they are being paid big bucks to do . I know that many sound engineers prefer a certain "colouring" on their converters and we respect that choice, even if it means that they buy a converter from one of our competitors (but I still hate to loose an order ). Fortunately we are all different and have our own personal preferences which we can always discuss over a cold one.

Another aspect to consider when choosing a converter are the specifications. Yes, I know it's boring and that audible sound quality is King, but it's still worth doing a quick check on the specs. For example, the AX32 has a dynamic range of 123 dB whereas the IZ ADA II with an Ultra Nyquist card has 108 dB. Those extra 15 dB on the AX32 don't make a lot of difference if you mainly work on e.g. death metal music, but if you mainly do classical music the 15 dB can make a big difference. Please note, I'm NOT saying the ADA II is bad, I'm just using it as an example of where products can differ. Noise level is another spec worth looking at, again depending on the kind of work you do.

And then there's naturally also the functionality, interfaces, sample rates, pimp factor, etc. to consider but that's another (very long) story.

@ Kerchunis: it does make sense to put a mic pre in a converter (which is why we have done it on both the AX24 and AX32), provided the manufacturer makes a very good mic pre. Yes, it adds cost but not as much cost as buying a separate mic pre. And it also provides a more compact/lighter weight solution for mobile recordings as you only need one unit between the mikes and the DAW. And if you want to use an external mic pre for some reason, then you simply set the converter to line input and you can live happily ever after .

@ Plush: thank you very much .
Old 25th October 2013
  #17
I will upgrade my current converter system to a high end multichannel converter system. The 2 remaining contenders for me are the DAD AX32 and Merging Horus. It will be used for classical music recordings (PCM and DSD) and mastering. The most important 'feature' for me is the quality of the AD and DA converters and of course the Mic preamps. I hope some people here have worked with/listened to both systems and are willing to share their experiences.
Old 26th October 2013
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntpjl View Post
Thanks for all the interesting comments, so let me give our perspective on things.

Let me start in the philosophical corner. At DAD, our philosophy is that a converter should be as faithful as possible to the artist(s). So our aim is to make a converter that is as clear, transparent and neutral as possible. We don't want to add any "colouring" or "enhancements" (or whetever other manufacturers call it) to the sound, the reason being that we believe it is up to the creative skills of the sound engineer and/or producer to create or design the sound they want to add to the recording. That is after all what they are being paid big bucks to do . I know that many sound engineers prefer a certain "colouring" on their converters and we respect that choice, even if it means that they buy a converter from one of our competitors (but I still hate to loose an order ). Fortunately we are all different and have our own personal preferences which we can always discuss over a cold one.

Another aspect to consider when choosing a converter are the specifications. Yes, I know it's boring and that audible sound quality is King, but it's still worth doing a quick check on the specs. For example, the AX32 has a dynamic range of 123 dB whereas the IZ ADA II with an Ultra Nyquist card has 108 dB. Those extra 15 dB on the AX32 don't make a lot of difference if you mainly work on e.g. death metal music, but if you mainly do classical music the 15 dB can make a big difference. Please note, I'm NOT saying the ADA II is bad, I'm just using it as an example of where products can differ. Noise level is another spec worth looking at, again depending on the kind of work you do.

And then there's naturally also the functionality, interfaces, sample rates, pimp factor, etc. to consider but that's another (very long) story.

@ Kerchunis: it does make sense to put a mic pre in a converter (which is why we have done it on both the AX24 and AX32), provided the manufacturer makes a very good mic pre. Yes, it adds cost but not as much cost as buying a separate mic pre. And it also provides a more compact/lighter weight solution for mobile recordings as you only need one unit between the mikes and the DAW. And if you want to use an external mic pre for some reason, then you simply set the converter to line input and you can live happily ever after .

@ Plush: thank you very much .


I guess if it sounds great, it would be very clean sounding built right in. I imagine its great for live classical recording.
Old 26th October 2013
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriabin View Post
I will upgrade my current converter system to a high end multichannel converter system. The 2 remaining contenders for me are the DAD AX32 and Merging Horus. It will be used for classical music recordings (PCM and DSD) and mastering. The most important 'feature' for me is the quality of the AD and DA converters and of course the Mic preamps. I hope some people here have worked with/listened to both systems and are willing to share their experiences.
Plush mentioned in another thread that they sounded similar, and great, with horus a tad more mid forward.

Not sure if you had read that yet. Im also interested in hearing more feedback.
Old 26th October 2013
  #20
Lives for gear
 
herecomesyourman's Avatar
Go Burl if you can afford it. Or JCF if you really have money to burn.
Old 27th October 2013
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Go Burl if you can afford it. Or JCF if you really have money to burn.
Havent heard of that jcf before. Looks cool but a little too much $

Can you compare burl to horus, dad, iZ?
Old 27th October 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
 
herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
Havent heard of that jcf before. Looks cool but a little too much $

Can you compare burl to horus, dad, iZ?
IZ is amazing but the cleanest and most accurate I've tried. The Burl is more like a cross between a tape machine and and AD converter. They're different. Don't know the other brands.
Old 27th October 2013
  #23
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
I preferred the Burl MS to the Radar II classic 96.
just sounds bigger/richer to my ears.
Old 27th October 2013
  #24
Lives for gear
 
herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I preferred the Burl MS to the Radar II classic 96.
just sounds bigger/richer to my ears.
Exactly...it's just a more musical experience.
Old 27th October 2013
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
.... until i realized i would either need protools hd, or to add the madi card, as well as an rme madi card. ......
...
or is there about to be new options coming to market?
MADI and ProTool HD card works very good on Aurora.

2 Forssell MDAC-8 would be great converters for analog summing. Here you just need a AES/EBU card or interface.

With an Aurora16 and HD card you could use the 16 DA converters from the Aurora and add 16 channels like Forssell connected via AES - means 32 channels at the same time.
Old 28th October 2013
  #26
Gear Addict
 
xcskier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntpjl View Post
@xcskier: the AX24 is field-upgradeable (as long as you know how to handle a screwdriver), so just drop me an e-mail (I think you have my details) or PM with the serial number and a list of what you want to upgrade to, then I'll make sure you get a quote for it.

We reduced the price of the AX24 about a year ago, so you are now able to get either a brand new AX24 or upgrades at very reasonable prices.
Hey Jan.
I assumed that the digital i/o and analogue output modules on the Ax24 could be installed by the user. I was told by a Dealer that the analogue input module and firmware/sample rate updates had to be done at DAD.

It would be nice if this turns out not to be the case, and all could be updated in the field.

To add to your description, the DAD AX24 is the most detailed and Musical converter I have ever used in analogue mixing. I would have to spend more time to translate what I heard.... That said, I haven't had a chance to do this with our new Horus, since I am still overhauling the studio (updating to Pyramix 8) but it's a very exiting prospect indeed.

Also to be fair, I also haven't used Meitner and DCS converters to compare, since these names also represent the select list of elite class. When Telarc adds the DAD Ax24 beside their Meitner, you know it's top.
Old 28th October 2013
  #27
For my rig...I am running a Symphony 8x8x8, [clean, but still sounds full] right now. I NEED another 8x8x8 module for 16 channels of Apogee analog I/O and 16 channels of AES/EBU. Then I will NEED a JCF DA8v [simulating the big transformer tonal output sound of Ampex 351 tube Amplifiers] and NEED a JCF AD8 [simulating the nuance and essence of capturing to an analog recording medium right to digital] and NEED a JCF Latte [simulating an Ampex master stereo recorder with discrete amplifiers and transformers] all connected with the Digital I/O on the Apogee Modules.

Then I will never visit another converter thread again.
Old 28th October 2013
  #28
What surprises me is the relative low THD+N Line+A/D Input figure of the Horus, namely -106dB (0,0005%). Here, in my opinion, a lot of recent audio converters perform theoretically better.
Old 29th October 2013
  #29
Gear Addict
 
xcskier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriabin View Post
What surprises me is the relative low THD+N Line+A/D Input figure of the Horus, namely -106dB (0,0005%). Here, in my opinion, a lot of recent audio converters perform theoretically better.
Merging does give me confidence in their products since they seem to be quite transparent and open with listed specifications. For example, MassCore latencies list the complete In-software–Out round trip numbers, contrary to many other systems.

Following this same notion, it would be useful to view specs on THD etc. in a similar manner.

A meaningful THD+N (total harmonic distortion plus noise) measurement must include the bandwidth of measurement.

The Merging Horus AD8D/AD8DP analogue input module spec. :
THD+N (1 kHz), Line/Mic at G=0dB <-115 dB (0.00018 %)
THD+N (20 Hz-20 kHz) , Line/Mic at G=0dB <-112 dB (0.00025 %)
[A value of 0dB corresponds to an input sensitivity of +24dBu for 0dBFS]

A different manufacturer posts such a spec.:
THD+N: -113dB @ 20dBu (0.00024%)
-Without defining a specific frequency or bandwidth.

The Horus analogue output modules :
THD+N D/A (1 kHz) @ 0 dBFS (IOM-HORUS-DA8) < -113dB (0.00022 %)
THD+N D/A (1 kHz) @ 0 dBFS (IOM-HORUS-DA8P) < -115dB (0.00018 %)

Compared to unnamed manufacturer:
THD+N: -117dB @ 20dBu (0.00014%)
Sure, a better THD +N value, but no bandwidth given to clarify the measurement parameters.

See what else they did?
Measurement not performed at full scale. Measured at 4dBu less (20dBu) instead of their listed 0dBFS = +24dBu.

Of course unnamed will get better marketing specifications, because they didn’t measure at full scale (when appropriate). Objective measurements should or must be replicable, consistently applied, and we hope in a real-world testing environment. Typical results should be published, not best possible or outlying variants.
__________________
MudsharkAudio
www.mudsharkaudio.com
Old 31st October 2013
  #30
Gear Nut
 

Hey everyone. This is Dennis and I’m the Merging Technologies product specialist in the US. It’s great to see all the buzz about Horus on Gearslutz. Here in the US we have had great success with Horus over the last 18 or so months that it has been available and the feedback has been unanimously positive on the sonic quality as well as the “user friendliness” of it. Probably one of the coolest things about it though is that because Merging went with the RAVENNA AoIP protocol instead of Dante, all of the networking stuff works for not only 44.1-192kHz productions, but also works for all the DXD and DSD 64/128/256 workflows as well. It is pretty cool seeing 2 Pyramix MassCore rigs recording 48 channels of DSD256 each with nothing more than a connection to a switch! If anyone has any questions about Horus, RAVENNA or anything else Merging related, feel free to get me on here if you need me.
Thnx
Dennis Gaines
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump