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16 d/a for summing? Burl, horus, symphony, ???
Old 31st October 2013
  #31
Gear Nut
 

Merging Horus latency

@Dennis,

I am looking into both Merging Horus and DAD Ax32, which have Dante.
How is the latencies between those two systems?

I am most attracted towards the Merging Horus because I can have 32 mic-preamps input and 16 outputs in only two rack-units, but I am unsure about if I can get as low latency as with a RME-card like RayDat.

Can I adjust the preamps with an Eucon-controller?

PlugSlut
Old 31st October 2013
  #32
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlugSlut View Post
@Dennis,

I am looking into both Merging Horus and DAD Ax32, which have Dante.
How is the latencies between those two systems?

I am most attracted towards the Merging Horus because I can have 32 mic-preamps input and 16 outputs in only two rack-units, but I am unsure about if I can get as low latency as with a RME-card like RayDat.

Can I adjust the preamps with an Eucon-controller?

PlugSlut
Hey PlugSlut. Thanks for the question. The round trip latency from analog in to analog out is about 110 samples. Of course this is only in the box latency and it would be larger depending on the DAW used. The Preamps can't be directly controlled via Eucon. But with a DAW with preamp gain control, like Pyramix and Protools, you can attached the preamp gain from the software to Horus and control the software from Eucon.
Dennis
Old 31st October 2013
  #33
Gear Nut
Now that's power!! That's a lot of tracks at that resolution.I can't wait to demo the horus....Dennis you got to make that happen...The sphynx 2 was nice,I can't imagine what the horus will sound like..
Old 1st November 2013
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGaines View Post
...The round trip latency from analog in to analog out is about 110 samples. Of course this is only in the box latency and it would be larger depending on the DAW used. The Preamps can't be directly controlled via Eucon. But with a DAW with preamp gain control, like Pyramix and Protools, you can attached the preamp gain from the software to Horus and control the software from Eucon.
Dennis
To add a little more to the discussion:

Lowest latencies will be achieved with Masscore/RTx in Pyramix.
The Horus also has it's own ASIO/RAVENNA drivers for native support. These latencies are not quite as extremely low, but very respectable.

We may use RME MADI interface as redundant backup to Horus over Ravenna, and I do believe the ASIO/Ravenna will have similar latencies to RME PCI cards. The RME PCIe might have one lower option at 32 smpl, but there will also be updates to the Merging driver without a doubt.

Question to Dennis: the Masscore latencies listed are round trip. Is this also true for Ravenna/ASIO (assuming the DAW is Pyramix) ?

If so, that may mean Merging ASIO is faster than RME. I'm not sure if RME is listing round trip. Also remember there are scenarios where a slightly higher latency is recommended...

Preamp Remote control: Keep in mind that the Horus Preamp/Line gain controls are accessible with graphic interface via Ethernet IP address on your PC (Mac). Also possible via a wireless tablet. For tactile control surface for Horus, refer to SmartAV Tango. (I believe this is direct control... or is this Horus via DAW control as suggested above?)
Old 3rd November 2013
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGaines View Post
Hey everyone. This is Dennis and I’m the Merging Technologies product specialist in the US. It’s great to see all the buzz about Horus on Gearslutz. Here in the US we have had great success with Horus over the last 18 or so months that it has been available and the feedback has been unanimously positive on the sonic quality as well as the “user friendliness” of it. Probably one of the coolest things about it though is that because Merging went with the RAVENNA AoIP protocol instead of Dante, all of the networking stuff works for not only 44.1-192kHz productions, but also works for all the DXD and DSD 64/128/256 workflows as well. It is pretty cool seeing 2 Pyramix MassCore rigs recording 48 channels of DSD256 each with nothing more than a connection to a switch! If anyone has any questions about Horus, RAVENNA or anything else Merging related, feel free to get me on here if you need me.
Thnx
Dennis Gaines
Thanks for dropping in

How solid are the asio drivers? Does it work well with various daws on windows?

Does it work well for performing with virtual instruments at low latency? I know this isnt a top priority for this sort of system , but i imagine it could work out good.

As far as the networking goes, can you network 2 computers to 1 horus? In your description, was that 2 horus systems with 24 i/o each?

Thanks
Old 4th November 2013
  #36
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
Thanks for dropping in

How solid are the asio drivers? Does it work well with various daws on windows?

Does it work well for performing with virtual instruments at low latency? I know this isnt a top priority for this sort of system , but i imagine it could work out good.

As far as the networking goes, can you network 2 computers to 1 horus? In your description, was that 2 horus systems with 24 i/o each?

Thanks
The ASIO drivers are very stable and work great. I've used them with Pyramix, Protools PC, Nuendo, and Samplitude. The Core Audio/Ravenna drivers should be done by the new year. Because the driver is ASIO it would be a higher latency than a MassCore system but I have found that the ASIO/Ravenna driver is lower than other USB/PCIe/Firewire interfaces on the market.

The system I was speaking about is outlined in this press release, Prosound Network: CSO Resound Adds Horus. The system consists of 1 Horus in the attic with 24 AD, 1 Horus on stage with 32 AD and 8 DA and 1 Horus in the control room with 8 DA. 2 Pyramix systems are connected to the network and are primary and backup recorders. All 56 channels are also sent out the 2 MADI optical ports on the control room Horus to go to a DM2000.
Dennis
Old 5th November 2013
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
As far as the networking goes, can you network 2 computers to 1 Horus?
If you use the proper Merging certified Ethernet switch, can't see any reason why you couldn't connect 2 PCs or more with one Horus. (Dell-PowerConnect 2816 and others from the same series e.g. Dell-PowerConnect 2808, 2824, 2848... )

You can also have primary or secondary PCs with AES or MADI cards connected to the Horus (though no Horus remote control via AES or MADI).

All sample rates would have to be the same as the Horus.
Old 5th November 2013
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
If you use the proper Merging certified Ethernet switch, can't see any reason why you couldn't connect 2 PCs or more with one Horus. (Dell-PowerConnect 2816 and others from the same series e.g. Dell-PowerConnect 2808, 2824, 2848... )

You can also have primary or secondary PCs with AES or MADI cards connected to the Horus (though no Horus remote control via AES or MADI).

All sample rates would have to be the same as the Horus.


Sounds great. Could you have one computer running vst instruments and routing to a second daw on the network with a single horus?

The horus is very appealing? D u think there will ever be wifi type stuff with this system?
Old 6th November 2013
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerchunis View Post
Sounds great. Could you have one computer running vst instruments and routing to a second daw on the network with a single horus?

The horus is very appealing? D u think there will ever be wifi type stuff with this system?
I'll have to think more about the vst instruments. Performing in real time makes sense.

Wifi for preamp remote control has already been demonstrated by Claude Cellier himself. (Perhaps even other Horus menu controls are possible via wifi.)

Ravenna Audio via wifi - No.
Gb/s Lan connection is required with QoS (Quality of Service) protocol and various other scheduling optimizations. Wifi may include these protocols but will not be able to deliver the stability or throughput needed. (The reason we hardwired Cat5e years ago - stability and security). Cat 6 or Cat 5e certified cable is required.
Old 6th November 2013
  #40
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
I'll have to think more about the vst instruments. Performing in real time makes sense.

Wifi for preamp remote control has already been demonstrated by Claude Cellier himself. (Perhaps even other Horus menu controls are possible via wifi.)

Ravenna Audio via wifi - No.
Gb/s Lan connection is required with QoS (Quality of Service) protocol and various other scheduling optimizations. Wifi may include these protocols but will not be able to deliver the stability or throughput needed. (The reason we hardwired Cat5e years ago - stability and security). Cat 6 or Cat 5e certified cable is required.
You can run a VST instrument program within the same computer as Pyramix and Rewire into the Pyramix mixer. Then Pyramix would be connected to the Horus network. Or if the VSTi program can use ASIO you could install the ASIO/Ravenna driver. All controls through Horus web server is controllable via WiFi. Sending Ravenna streams over WiFi does actually work but it isn't 100% reliable, so I would say no right now. Although this might change in the future.
Dennis
Old 6th November 2013
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I have pimped my studio, ntpjl!

Yes that gold front panel with the blue light is really DOING IT FOR US here!

( the main pimping that is going on is with the SOUND!! Fantastic!!)

Congratulations on the release of your new AX32.
with thanks,

Plush
Is it that good, Plush? I'd love to hear one. Anybody using a Horus close to Cincinnati?
Old 6th November 2013
  #42
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I believe that DAD is the best sound. It features a "non sound" aural footprint
whose watch word is purity. It is a pure sound carrier that transmits and encodes what you send to it.

Horus is also excellent and offers a sound with a mild midrange emphasis. I had the Horus here for a month this summer. I had detailed good listening tests in my room.

DAD replaced dCS a/d and d/a here.

Both DAD and Horus offer a systems approach.
Old 6th November 2013
  #43
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cowboycoalminer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I believe that DAD is the best sound. It features a "non sound" aural footprint
whose watch word is purity. It is a pure sound carrier that transmits and encodes what you send to it.

Horus is also excellent and offers a sound with a mild midrange emphasis. I had the Horus here for a month this summer. I had detailed good listening tests in my room.

DAD replaced dCS a/d and d/a here.

Both DAD and Horus offer a systems approach.
Thanks for the info. I'm gonna check into this.
Old 6th November 2013
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I believe that DAD is the best sound. It features a "non sound" aural footprint
whose watch word is purity. It is a pure sound carrier that transmits and encodes what you send to it.

Horus is also excellent and offers a sound with a mild midrange emphasis. I had the Horus here for a month this summer. I had detailed good listening tests in my room.

DAD replaced dCS a/d and d/a here.

Both DAD and Horus offer a systems approach.
I know they are 2 totally different systems, but can you compare the dad to the conversion of lynx hilo?
Old 7th November 2013
  #45
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I don't know the Hilo unit. I have not heard it. I have read a lot about it. I know it is positioned as a top class unit by the manufacturer's ad campaign and white papers.
Old 7th November 2013
  #46
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I don't know the Hilo unit. I have not heard it. I have read a lot about it. I know it is positioned as a top class unit by the manufacturer's ad campaign and white papers.
Thanks, i appreciate your input on this thread. I also really enjoy your soundcloud page. Are those recordings made with your dad? How about the converters? (Joke)
Old 7th November 2013
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGaines View Post
... if the VSTi program can use ASIO you could install the ASIO/Ravenna driver. All controls through Horus web server is controllable via WiFi. Sending Ravenna streams over WiFi does actually work but it isn't 100% reliable, so I would say no right now. Although this might change in the future.
Dennis
Just remember, that currently the Ravanna/ASIO driver is not multi-client supported.

I probably would not want to do a Horus firmware/bios update via wifi, even if it is possible.

Also I should express a little reserve with my previous post:
Horus is multicast. It will broadcast to many other devices etc.
However I have not yet read or experienced the case where two devices (two PCs) want to access the same DA module. (I assume it will work, but not sure what occurs when the same bank is sent two sources.) Perhaps Dennis has some thoughts on this.
Old 7th November 2013
  #48
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
Just remember, that currently the Ravanna/ASIO driver is not multi-client supported.

I probably would not want to do a Horus firmware/bios update via wifi, even if it is possible.

Also I should express a little reserve with my previous post:
Horus is multicast. It will broadcast to many other devices etc.
However I have not yet read or experienced the case where two devices (two PCs) want to access the same DA module. (I assume it will work, but not sure what occurs when the same bank is sent two sources.) Perhaps Dennis has some thoughts on this.
In the situation above, all inputs to Horus are "broadcast" to the network, meaning that all RAVENNA devices can receive those channels. But when you connect a DA on one Pyramix that DA becomes unavailable to the other Pyramix' on the network.
Plush, the tests you did with the DAD and Horus, was that the AX24 or AX32?
Dennis
Old 7th November 2013
  #49
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My tests were with a Horus supplied to me by VK and the DAD AX24 unit that I own.

I tested mic amps, a/d, and d/a here for a month.

I really enjoyed getting to know HORUS's capabilities. The mic amp is wonderful (with fantastic Nagra heritage courtesy Claude C). Conversion was excellent on both units with nary a quality difference discernable. Both units offered a purity of sound that was highly desirable.

I got in early with top top conversion ever since Tony Faulkner told me I should buy a dCS converter in the mid 90's. So my ear is used to top top sound.

All top end conversion systems are very close in performance I have found.
Even my dCS 902 from 1995 is still sounding outstanding as an a/d.

Ironically, I can get a mindblowed recording using an all analog set up.
Analog mic pres into my Neve console mixed to a Studer 1/2" 4-track. Orchestra on two tracks, soloists on two tracks.
This is with or without Dolby SR.

Heresy, I know, in a converter thread.

Just like I used to do, I would record the Chicago Symphony Orchestra with 14 mics mixed live to tape.
Old 9th November 2013
  #50
Gear Nut
16 d/a for summing? Burl, horus, symphony, ??? Reply to Thread

Hey Dennis,I think the sphynx 2 and the DAD are basically the same aren't they? I think I need to compare the sound of the horus vs the sphynx 2, and give these guys a review.. I'll try to set this up with you. I'll give you a call soon. I should have some time to test them in my room..I am nearing the end of this project.
Old 9th November 2013
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR WOO View Post
Hey Dennis,I think the sphynx 2 and the DAD are basically the same aren't they?
Yep,
Sphynx2 = DADax24

One is Silver, one is Gold
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