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Me Geithain,ATC,PSI,Barefoot compare?
Old 15th October 2013
  #1
Here for the gear
Me Geithain,ATC,PSI,Barefoot compare?

Hello Slutz,
Help to choose between monitors
Geithain RL903,RL933,RL922,RL901.
ATC SCM25A Pro
ATC SCM50A Pro
ATC SCM100ASL Pro
PSI A25-M
Barefoot MicroMain27 Gen2
The main high detail without color the sound.Please write who compared them to
each other? They can't be equally good,any is all the same more exact more in
details.
Old 15th October 2013
  #2
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lm66's Avatar
High end nearfield test

Please take the time to read all of the pages.
Great thread !
Old 15th October 2013
  #3
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
Hello Slutz,
Help to choose between monitors
Geithain RL903,RL933,RL922,RL901.
ATC SCM25A Pro
ATC SCM50A Pro
ATC SCM100ASL Pro
PSI A25-M
Barefoot MicroMain27 Gen2
The main high detail without color the sound.Please write who compared them to
each other? They can't be equally good,any is all the same more exact more in
details.
All good units.

The Geithain units you mention will all sound the same (as I found out when I compared the small RL906 to the large RL901K - the main difference being in bass extension). Also, the monitors are designed with a different listening distance in mind:-

RL901K
Listening distance: 2 - 4m
Frequency response: 25Hz - 20kHz

RL922K
Listening distance: 2 - 3m
Frequency response: 30Hz - 20kHz

RL933K
Listening distance: 2 - 3m
Frequency response: 35Hz - 20kHz

RL903K
Listening distance: 1.5 - 3m
Frequency response: 35Hz - 20kHz


All these are the "K" range "cardioid" monitors that do not radiate bass out of the rear (below is the bass radiation pattern of the RL901K) which means that they do not excite the room like other monitors that all go omni in the bass.



Also - they are all co-axial monitors that do give an excellent stereo image and spacial depth.

If you are in the UK it's easy to get a demo on your premises of the RL901K (not sure about other countries).
Old 15th October 2013
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lm66 View Post
High end nearfield test

Please take the time to read all of the pages.
Great thread !
Agreed - but the OP here is not really asking for nearfields.
Old 15th October 2013
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
They can't be equally good
To me they are all equally good, but in different ways

I've heard the RL901K and worked on RL922K1, SCM25A, A215-M and MM27Gen1. I can't really rank one above the other when it comes to how detailed they are - it depends on what kind of detail you're interested in. Do you want the engaging immersion that Geithain gives you? Do you want the open bass and extreme midrange detail of ATC? Do you want the near-perfect impulse response and linear phase response of PSI? Do you want the great rendering of frequency and dynamics that you get from Barefoots? It all becomes a question of how you want these details presented to you.

If I was forced to give you an answer about high detail, I might say ATC and PSI kind of make you "zoom in" slightly more when you listen, and usually this is what people want when they ask for "high detail" monitors. Just remember: Constantly zooming in can make you focus too much on details that won't matter in the end...

When it comes to having low coloration, that's also tough to answer. Geithains have a frequency response that can vary a bit from pair to pair, but they come in matched pairs, and their cardioid-shaped bass dispersion can in some rooms provide a smoother real-world bass response than other monitors. ATCs have very low harmonic distortion, but to some listeners, low harmonic distortion in the bass kan make the monitors sound bass-shy. In some rooms, the ATCs mids can sound nice and open, while in other rooms, they can be mid-heavy. And while PSIs and Barefoots both measure almost ruler-flat, if they don't fit into your room, you will have the same problem with these monitors as with Geithains and ATCs.

If I was forced to give you an answer about low coloration, I might say PSI or Barefoot, simply because they are manufactured to have very tight tolerances. But it's really not fair to claim that one is less colored than the other, since it all depends on so many other variables, such as the room response and your individual taste.
Old 15th October 2013
  #6
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lm66's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Agreed - but the OP here is not really asking for nearfields.
Yes, but lot of speakers which are not considered as nearfields were compared by Audiovisjon (Barefoot MM27 gen2, PSI A25M, ATC SCM25A, etc.).
Old 16th October 2013
  #7
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aaronsternke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lm66 View Post
High end nearfield test

Please take the time to read all of the pages.
Great thread !
+1. One of the best threads ever.
Old 16th October 2013
  #8
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aaronsternke's Avatar
 

Also, FWIW, spoke to someone recently about the whole "which monitors should I buy" question and he said "that's like asking 'what kind of girl should I date?'" I thought that was a funny but poignant comparison. When doing monitor testing, it's always best to approach it with more of a "what do I like" and "what does it make me do" frame of mind, rather than a "which one is best" frame of mind. Not saying you're not doing that... just some food for thought as you compare. Happy comparing, and be sure to check out that nearfield monitor thread!
Old 16th October 2013
  #9
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stariq's Avatar
 

It's really simple ATC or Westlake.
Old 16th October 2013
  #10
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RoundBadge's Avatar
start demoing man.
that's the only way.
in your room with your own ears.
I've got BF MM27 gen 2's and love them.
Old 16th October 2013
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hjelmevold View Post
When it comes to having low coloration, that's also tough to answer. Geithains have a frequency response that can vary a bit from pair to pair...
Are you stating that Geithain has quality issues/loose tolerances?? I have totally opposite picture of them; literal prussian audio-precisionists on their duty. Tolerances as tight as can get.

Btw, if measured precisely enought, there is no similar loudspeaker driver in the whole world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hjelmevold View Post
...but they come in matched pairs, and their cardioid-shaped bass dispersion can in some rooms provide a smoother real-world bass response than other monitors. ATCs have very low harmonic distortion, but to some listeners, low harmonic distortion in the bass kan make the monitors sound bass-shy. In some rooms, the ATCs mids can sound nice and open, while in other rooms, they can be mid-heavy. And while PSIs and Barefoots both measure almost ruler-flat, if they don't fit into your room, you will have the same problem with these monitors as with Geithains and ATCs.

If I was forced to give you an answer about low coloration, I might say PSI or Barefoot, simply because they are manufactured to have very tight tolerances. But it's really not fair to claim that one is less colored than the other, since it all depends on so many other variables, such as the room response and your individual taste.


Otherwise it seems to me, that you don´t fully understand what kind piece of audio technology you have been messed with K-serie cardioid Geithains. Sure they look normal speaker boxes, but their acoustical radiation performance is far away from normal. Did you ever room response measurement/other meter based audio analysis with them vs. regular omniradiators??
You express Geithains cardioid low end the way that it is common and quite normal thing in world of loudspeakers, just an other gimmick. Almost nothing and by it´s significance to reproduced audio pure matter of taste. Easily comparable on same sentence to some 3 nanoseconds different impulse response/weirdly elevated midrange/golf ball -patterned reflex tubes...

K-series Geithains are only one of those bunch which have real tools (no audiophile imaginery "tools") to actually lower that coloration (=room reflections) by its own means. That is, by its cardioid radiation pattern on bass and low midrange. Extremely rare and useful property on loudspeaker. Great help on practical loudpeaker -situation; does in principle front wall reflection elimination -wise the same thing as one (1) meter (3 ft) thick rockwool layer on that front wall/corners. Without that rockwool layer!
Old 16th October 2013
  #12
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yes, start demoing, then make it work. monitors are tools like anything else, they help your brain make decisions.
Old 16th October 2013
  #13
Here for the gear
I have been on the forum and read a lot. I think this is the best
monitors near field, average field.
I write different music, classics, rock, acoustic and electronic.Choose monitors the best of the best in the future, not change.
These monitors I was not listening.
Old 16th October 2013
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IME View Post
I have been on the forum and read a lot. I think this is the best
monitors near field, average field.
I write different music, classics, rock, acoustic and electronic.Choose monitors the best of the best in the future, not change.
These monitors I was not listening.

Well, my selection would be the largest cardioid-Geithain that you can afford, i.e this


RL 901K


In practise, they will help you achieve your low coloration reproductional goals like no other of those listed loudspeakers. Most powerful way to loudpeaker to help you with that, is via their radiation pattern control. Exactly what Geithain does. Other ways are more or less monkeying around and nonsensial re-invention bluff -tryings of wheel.
Geithains cardioid low end polar pattern is often confused among those regular nonsense details, and fastly skipped to next sexier details. Perhaps, because it is pretty hard to common recording engineer to understand; like low output impedances crucial significance to headphone reproduction. So called Reproduced Audio´s points of Cardinal Mistake. Audio is invisible and sometimes very difficult to make people understand the essential factors of it.
Old 16th October 2013
  #15
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterGhost View Post
Well, my selection would be the largest cardioid-Geithain that you can afford, i.e this


RL 901K


In practise, they will help you achieve your low coloration reproductional goals like no other of those listed loudspeakers. Most powerful way to loudpeaker to help you with that, is via their radiation pattern control. Exactly what Geithain does. Other ways are more or less monkeying around and nonsensial re-invention bluff -tryings of wheel.
Geithains cardioid low end polar pattern is often confused among those regular nonsense details, and fastly skipped to next sexier details. Perhaps, because it is pretty hard to common recording engineer to understand; like low output impedances crucial significance to headphone reproduction. So called Reproduced Audio´s points of Cardinal Mistake. Audio is invisible and sometimes very difficult to make people understand the essential factors of it.
You are very right in what you say about Geithain's cardioid response.

But the RL901K may not be the best if the room is small.

All Geithain RL series sound the same - as I discovered when I compared the small 906 with the large 901K and found it difficult to tell which was which.

The difference is in the better low bass extension of the larger units (and, of course, the cardioid bass radiation).

But Geithain clearly state the designed listening distance - the 901K is designed to be listened at a distance of between 2 to 4m.

If you want longer, you need the 801K which is between 3 - 6m (but is almost double the price of the 901K).

If shorter, look at the 922K or 944K.
Old 18th October 2013
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
But the RL901K may not be the best if the room is small.
...

But Geithain clearly state the designed listening distance - the 901K is designed to be listened at a distance of between 2 to 4m.
Have you detected some side effects when listening RL901K´s at very close distance? It´s drivers are coaxial -style arranged and very close to each other - issues with radiation integration with different bands blending together shouldn´t be. Multiple treble driver models may require some additional distance, but according my common knowledge of speakers, not single treble driver RL901K.

Geithains listening distance recommendations seems to me like typical usage -scenario style recommendations, not to be taken literally; "Typical listening distance in control room conditions which gives good results" etc. I dont see actual obstruction to listen RL901K even distance of <1 meter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
All Geithain RL series sound the same - as I discovered when I compared the small 906 with the large 901K and found it difficult to tell which was which.
All self respecting studio speakers manufactures claim their entire line up to sound the "same". Think about it; "Our small entry level models output quite colored sound. Uncolored playback begins at 10000€/$ /pr". Not good PR, is it... ? :D

They may sound "same" in general spectral balance -wise (both aim to neutral on their own way), which can yield in good acoustic conditions and minimonitor friendly listening distance and playback levels pretty similar result.
Little ones aim neutral as well, but it is possible for them only for very short listening distance + limited bandwidth and SPL.

Otherwise, RL906 and RL901K can´t sound much the same. RL906 is quite conventional coffee pack -sized 2-way minimonitor. RL901K is refrigerator sized 3-way, with advanced low freq. polar pattern. Quite different kind of acoustical animals. They can sound similar only when listening environment factors favor the little one (short listening distance, very unreflective acoustics, not loud).
RL901K has hugely larger low freq. radiating surface (5" vs. 16" heh), and it is 3-way. It is much more directive on whole audio bandwidth by its sheer physical size + even those special acoustical resistance ports for cardioid shape low end. Difference in clean SPL-output and general resolution/imaging of sound should be quite... big.
Old 19th October 2013
  #17
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Thanks to all for answers.
Who compared the PSI A25 and Geithain, which are obtained mixes?
Old 21st October 2013
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
You are very right in what you say about Geithain's cardioid response.

But the RL901K may not be the best if the room is small.

All Geithain RL series sound the same - as I discovered when I compared the small 906 with the large 901K and found it difficult to tell which was which.

The difference is in the better low bass extension of the larger units (and, of course, the cardioid bass radiation).

But Geithain clearly state the designed listening distance - the 901K is designed to be listened at a distance of between 2 to 4m.

If you want longer, you need the 801K which is between 3 - 6m (but is almost double the price of the 901K).
+1
Old 22nd October 2013
  #19
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I used Geithain RL-904 for around eight years, I also know the RL-901 K quite well. Back then, coming from Genelecs 1030 the Geithains were really a huge step up for me. But soon I realized that I did have some problems judging the mids, so I used NS10 in conjunction and finally were mixing mainly on them. Nowadays I'm using Verdade Monitors – pretty unknown here around. Those again were a huge step up from the Geithains IMO, I also don't use the NS10s since then.

I think the only way is to borrow some of those monitors from your list and work with them. A friend I trust told me that the PSI goes a bit in the direction of the Verdades, just a hint :-)
Old 23rd October 2013
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anghello View Post
+1
-1

List me audio technically valid non-voodoo -things that interfere listening RL901K nearer that 2 metres, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas G View Post
I used Geithain RL-904 for around eight years, I also know the RL-901 K quite well. Back then, coming from Genelecs 1030 the Geithains were really a huge step up for me. But soon I realized that I did have some problems judging the mids, so I used NS10 in conjunction and finally were mixing mainly on them. Nowadays I'm using Verdade Monitors – pretty unknown here around. Those again were a huge step up from the Geithains IMO, I also don't use the NS10s since then.
Genelec is one of the worlds most pragmatic loudspeaker manufacturers - highly respected. 1030A though, is heavily underweighted against RL901K. Fair counter pair from Genelec´s line up against that would be some of 1030A´s 3-way big brothers. 1038B, for example.

Verdade Monitors seems more than a little bit of speaker made by subjectivists to other subjectivists. Audio-is-black-magic-because-it-is-invisible -type of manufacturer.
No datas, no response graphs, no anything audiotechnically smart ideas/concepts. No anything but subjective voodoo & dah dah dah. Equivalent sized Geithain beats that box bad in pragmatic comparison.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #21
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Hjelmevold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterGhost View Post
List me audio technically valid non-voodoo -things that interfere listening RL901K nearer that 2 metres, please.
A technically valid non-voodoo keyword that I find applicable here is HRTF, head-related transfer function. HRTF is a response that characterizes how an ear receives a sound from a point in space.

Quote:
HRTF are complicated functions of frequency and the three spatial variables. For distances greater than 1 m from the head, however, the HRTF can be said to attenuate inversely with range. It is this far field HRTF, H(f, ?, ?), that has most often been measured. At closer range, the difference in level observed between the ears can grow quite large, even in the low-frequency region within which negligible level differences are observed in the far field.
Source: Wikipedia's article about Head Related Transfer Function

I can't give you an exact reference, since I read this probably two years ago, but there was an article published on the web that wrote about a person's visit to the Geithain factory. In that article, Joachim Kiesler talked about how the Geithain monitors were voiced differently between each model, in order to compensate for (I'm paraphrasing from memory) "Different timbre qualities depending on sound dispersion and listening distance".

The way I interpret this claim, is that Geithain has voiced their monitors so that they are optimized to sound neutral according to the HRTF at a specific listening range. If you listen to the monitors outside of the specified range, an educated guess would be that they sound too bright up close and too dark if you're far away.

Another factor that Geithain may or may not compensate for, is the interference pattern of how the sound radiates from the different speaker elements, and how this interference behaves at a specific listening distance. But I'm not sure if this is what Joachim Kiesler was referring to. Still, they have put considerable effort into their coaxial design so that each baffle has a fine-tuned radiation pattern. For instance, the tweeter on the 906 partially occludes the woofer in a way that dampens the woofer frequency response in the crossover region, which in turn allows for a less steep crossover filter that has less phase shift. And the aluminum tweeter has a cute iris-looking ring that probably is there to act as a waveguide so that the tweeter waves don't interfere too badly with the woofer.

Of course, it could be that ME Geithain is just mentioning all the technical jibber-jabber in order to create a false sense of accomplishment. And in the world of Hi-Fi marketing, such strategies are unfortuately sometimes used. But regardless of whether or not Geithain has been successful in their R&D, we're not talking about Snake Oil, as the science is there.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterGhost View Post
Genelec is one of the worlds most pragmatic loudspeaker manufacturers - highly respected. 1030A though, is heavily underweighted against RL901K. Fair counter pair from Genelec´s line up against that would be some of 1030A´s 3-way big brothers. 1038B, for example.
What? Please read again! I used the RL904 after the 1030A for eight years in conjunction with NS10 because of the lacking midrange. The RL901K are the monitors from my buddies studio I'm familiar with. I also think I know quite well what monitors works best for me. If the 1030A works for you, fine.

Quote:
Verdade Monitors seems more than a little bit of speaker made by subjectivists to other subjectivists. Audio-is-black-magic-because-it-is-invisible -type of manufacturer.
No datas, no response graphs, no anything audiotechnically smart ideas/concepts. No anything but subjective voodoo & dah dah dah.
Wow, so you blow out a lot of hot air just because you can't find a graph?
I can tell you for sure that the technical specs are absolutely top notch.

Quote:
Equivalent sized Geithain beats that box bad in pragmatic comparison. :cop:
I compared the RL904 and the RL901K with the Verdade monitors intensively. I was actually shocked how many flaws the Geithains revealed on these comparisons I wasn't aware of before.

And how about you? Did you ever work with Verdades? Or are you more a guy who is reading and believing in graphs ;)
Old 23rd October 2013
  #23
I've done some quality work ATC SCM25A

Highly recommend trying them out in your control room, doing some tracking/mixing work and see how things translate for you. All the engineers who use them report getting comments from Mastering Engineers..."We used No EQ"
Old 24th October 2013
  #24
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Just a quick update to my post above, where I paraphrased a quote by Joachim Kiesler. I think I found the original quote:
Quote:
Important are timbral neutrality, proper sorting and a correct sense of distance. One solution is to avoid widely spaced drivers which are common in multi-way systems (Geithain pursues the point-source ideal with its coaxial driver montages - Ed.). Further, controlled dispersion characteristics are often undervalued. In the 2 to 4kHz range, the human ear registers direct sounds ca. 2.5dB louder than reflected sounds. A proper speaker has to account for that. Each of our models with its own inherent ideal listening distance is specifically tuned to not excessively beam in the presence region. Otherwise the 2-4kHz window is emphasized which neither serves proper tone color nor subjective distance. Instead it would cause hyper presence and an unduly upfront perspective.
Source: 6moons.com - industry features: RoadTour ME Geithain (my emphasis)
Old 24th October 2013
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeterGhost View Post
-1

List me audio technically valid non-voodoo -things that interfere listening RL901K nearer that 2 metres, please.
Bass is stable, top end with air (not wet adam or agressive genelecs, by dry "kkhhh" sound) and upper midrange is crisp and detailed. Lower mid is bit wet and creamy in a very nice high-end way.

The best 3 things I admire about that speaker is
1- high-mid driver balance and sound, more then quested
2- cardiod sound of low end
3- design and material quality.

To me they do not open mix details I need to hear to get my work done 100%. You will easily get used to them. They also sounds huge in big rooms. You will never bring good sound from them in small - dead CR. They are very sweet and I would always admire them as listening monitor.
Old 26th October 2013
  #26
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Hi,

Just ordered a pair of RL 933K (piano glossy veneer) for my listening sessions (not for mixing).
I would have liked to go with RL920K or RL901K but my piece is 5mx4m and distance between speakers and me is 2.8m...

What I like about Geithain s speakers: big soundstage (width and depth), cariod bass response (easy integration, even if I own a Trinnov), no ear fatigue... great sound (like a high end hifi speaker ).

Price is huge...but I really think this is the kind of speakers we can live with for long time.

Someone knows what kind of amp there are on Geithain boxes ? Bryston (like PMC) ? Hypex ? customs ?
Old 26th October 2013
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
Hi,

Just ordered a pair of RL 933K (piano glossy veneer) for my listening sessions (not for mixing).
I would have liked to go with RL920K or RL901K but my piece is 5mx4m and distance between speakers and me is 2.8m...

What I like about Geithain s speakers: big soundstage (width and depth), cariod bass response (easy integration, even if I own a Trinnov), no ear fatigue... great sound (like a high end hifi speaker ).

Price is huge...but I really think this is the kind of speakers we can live with for long time.

Someone knows what kind of amp there are on Geithain boxes ? Bryston (like PMC) ? Hypex ? customs ?
You made the right choice.

You actually get a lot for your money with Geithain as the distributor and dealer margins are smaller than most others, so you pay a lot less than you would if the margins were higher.

As far as I am aware the amps are custom designs.

I am actually in Germany at the moment judging the International Recording Contrest. We are guests of Sud West Rundfunk in Baden-Baden and virtually every monitor in the place is a Geithain - I have seen about 20 so far, they seem to be in every studio.
Old 27th October 2013
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
You made the right choice.

You actually get a lot for your money with Geithain as the distributor and dealer margins are smaller than most others, so you pay a lot less than you would if the margins were higher.

As far as I am aware the amps are custom designs.

I am actually in Germany at the moment judging the International Recording Contrest. We are guests of Sud West Rundfunk in Baden-Baden and virtually every monitor in the place is a Geithain - I have seen about 20 so far, they seem to be in every studio.

A pair of 933K is 8.500 € (w/o VAT).
I don't say they are not worth it but it's twice more expensive than KH 310, same price as Adam Tensor Delta for example.
Old 27th October 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhara View Post
A pair of 933K is 8.500 € (w/o VAT).
I don't say they are not worth it but it's twice more expensive than KH 310, same price as Adam Tensor Delta for example.
The cardioid design is not inexpensive to make - you can see it clearly in the price jump from the bass reflex design to the cardioid design.

And cardioid does give acoustic advantages which no other monitor has.

You cannot compare a top end monitor like the 933K with the KH310.

I have done it the other way round, though, comparing a Geithain with a monitor twice the price with the listeners preferring the cheaper Geithain over the more expensive unit.
Old 29th October 2013
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The cardioid design is not inexpensive to make - you can see it clearly in the price jump from the bass reflex design to the cardioid design.

And cardioid does give acoustic advantages which no other monitor has.

You cannot compare a top end monitor like the 933K with the KH310.

I have done it the other way round, though, comparing a Geithain with a monitor twice the price with the listeners preferring the cheaper Geithain over the more expensive unit.

Yes I saw the price jump between BR and cardioid design.
Other point but it's most a thinking... I never understood why manufacturers don't use audiophile quality drivers (Seas, AudioTechnology, Davis, Scanpeak, Accuton , ...) instead of spending time and money here with engineering.
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