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New microphone or compressor?
Old 15th October 2013
  #31
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretschman View Post
Hey , don't be concerned about any of this , no body on this sight
ever got everything right when they started out .

Spending a lot of cash on a microphone hurts your brain !
Somehow you think that there is a shortcut or a middle of the road
compromise on the microphone deal.

But everyone is telling you the truth on the pecking order of buying equipment .

Buy a quality mic first .

If I was starting out , I would buy a Gefell mic.
That way you have a mic that is always killer and the resale value is very good .
Go to their web sight and look around,
Read reviews on " Sound on Sound " and Tape Op .

You can get a nice Gefell M930 for $1200-$1300
It's a real nice mic .
Of course they have a lot of nice ones to choose from .
JMO
Everyone makes mistakes...but even though he might have spent a bit much on his first converter he actually picked one of the best around. Plus Burl is a GREAT company (if something ever goes wrong, even years from now the tech support will flat out amazing.)

I know what you mean by thinking you can take a shortcut...but in reality the small wait time of saving for a mic wouldn't hurt him any...and he will absolutely lose money if he flips that converter early on down the road.

Plus I still say finding the right mic for a voice takes effort. You have to try things out and find what really works and feels musical. I totally concur that Gefell is a great company, but I'm not saying he should hang on to the Burl in order to avoid getting a new mic...I'm saying that the Burl is way more important in the chain than a measly SM7b.
Old 15th October 2013
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf Ebitsch View Post
Definitive a new Microphone.

R.


I would say the microphone will have the biggest impact followed by mic pre converters then compression.
Old 15th October 2013
  #33
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The source (Microphone) is always your touchstone, though I'd agree here, don't take a serious loss on the Burl or anything else, treat the room 1st and then 2nd save and grab a decent $2-3K LDC Mic and a Decent Stereo pair, then add some more Dynamic mic's. The Source flavours you'll find yourself dealing with make such a difference as does the room treatment. No reason to suck a loss though by flipping higher end stuff! While your waiting & saving Rent a decent Mic when needed!
Good luck.
Old 15th October 2013
  #34
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I compared a Steinberg UR22 pre amp and converters to my current analog chain. I'm using a ISA ONE going into a Panasonic Ramsa da7(I love the converters) VIA an Audio technica 4033 or Blue Baby Bottle. I'm getting world class vocals when it. That cheap $150 UR22 sounded as good.

I have a ton of acapellas from national artist and I'm right with them. A $400 mic is capable of achieving this level of performance(its done all the time).

His room could be an issue or his engineering. Honestly, I'm getting praised for my sound quality. Capturing the source is important, but knowing how to process it, is as important.

Yes I use plugins for processing, I may use a uad2 revised 1176 AE, Waves API 560a,Uad Pultec Pro and VCC all together just for the lead vocals.

I'm getting great results and have to need to get more mics. I had a Neumann Tlm 103, blue blueberry, Gt AM61, At 4050 and many more mics. Of that list were a few $1000 mics, I don't want any of those mics back( well maybe the am61).


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
Old 15th October 2013
  #35
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archfrenemy's Avatar
 

The Burl B2 Bomber ADC is a single direction converter, not an interface that covers both ADC and DAC. What are you currently using for DAC / monitoring?

Once again we are getting into gearslutz trouble here... There are a good number of posts that recommend that the OP hangs on to a $2.5k single direction converter and then just keep buying more highend stuff around it. We don't know his budget... We don't know his long term studio goals... We don't know his monitoring situation... That is the kind of advice that causes people to invest in a Burl converter before they address the infinitely more important mic / room!

The truth is that you can buy a used Steinberg MR816x or UR824 on eBay for $500. Either would give you 8 channels of excellent sounding ADC / DAC if you record at 96k 24bits. (Recording at sample rates lower than 88.2k can cause some high end roll off, so make sure your computer can handle those higher sample rates)

Does the Burl sound better than a Steinberg... Probably, but we are talking about 1-2% overall difference in your audio between the units at best. Eventually you are going to need a DAC converter for monitoring... Would you get the Burl B2 DAC for another $2.5k? That would be a total of $5,000 for 2 channels of Burl DAC / ADC, vs $500 for 8 channels of Steinberg DAC / ADC. Is 1-2% of a subjective overall quality difference worth an extra $4,500?

I am not telling you to take a massive loss on the Burl B2, but if you can course correct without taking a massive loss then go for it.

Re-focus on Sound Treatment, Mics, Monitoring and developing your engineering skills. All of those things will have a massive impact on your overall finished tracks! The Burl will not... (The microphone is always infinitely more important in the signal chain than a measly Burl converter)
Old 15th October 2013
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
The Burl B2 Bomber ADC is a single direction converter, not an interface that covers both ADC and DAC. What are you currently using for DAC / monitoring?

Once again we are getting into gearslutz trouble here... There are a good number of posts that recommend that the OP hangs on to a $2.5k single direction converter and then just keep buying more highend stuff around it. We don't know his budget... We don't know his long term studio goals... We don't know his monitoring situation... That is the kind of advice that causes people to invest in a Burl converter before they address the infinitely more important mic / room!

The truth is that you can buy a used Steinberg MR816x or UR824 on eBay for $500. Either would give you 8 channels of excellent sounding ADC / DAC if you record at 96k 24bits. (Recording at sample rates lower than 88.2k can cause some high end roll off, so make sure your computer can handle those higher sample rates)

Does the Burl sound better than a Steinberg... Probably, but we are talking about 1-2% overall difference in your audio between the units at best. Eventually you are going to need a DAC converter for monitoring... Would you get the Burl B2 DAC for another $2.5k? That would be a total of $5,000 for 2 channels of Burl DAC / ADC, vs $500 for 8 channels of Steinberg DAC / ADC. Is 1-2% of a subjective overall quality difference worth an extra $4,500?

I am not telling you to take a massive loss on the Burl B2, but if you can course correct without taking a massive loss then go for it.

Re-focus on Sound Treatment, Mics, Monitoring and developing your engineering skills. All of those things will have a massive impact on your overall finished tracks! The Burl will not... (The microphone is always infinitely more important in the signal chain than a measly Burl converter)
The ur22 has the same converters and the products you mentioned

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
Old 15th October 2013
  #37
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archfrenemy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by classictunz View Post
The ur22 has the same converters and the products you mentioned

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
If that is true, then you can buy one for dirt cheap from a company that has a great return policy. Compare it to your Burl at 96k and 24 or 32 bits. If it sounds cheap an horrid next to your Burl, then return it. If they sound 99% the same then keep the Steinberg and put your Burl money toward room treatment and mics.

Converters get obsessed over here at gearslutz... The truth is, if you look at your recording chain like a vehicle, your converter choice would only be the brand of wax that you apply. The paint would probably be the preamp... The body / frame would be the room you record and mix in... Your mic and source will always be the engine and construction quality.

Why focus on the paint job and high end brand of wax before you even have a decent engine or frame to put them on? Cars do not sell because they were polished with a specific brand of wax... Any good wax will suffice for now. Just get that engine working.

Also, for good measure I would like to add the terms steering wheel, tires and gas pedal... Just to ensure that I have sufficient beaten the analogy into the ground!
Old 15th October 2013
  #38
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herecomesyourman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
The Burl B2 Bomber ADC is a single direction converter, not an interface that covers both ADC and DAC. What are you currently using for DAC / monitoring?

Once again we are getting into gearslutz trouble here... There are a good number of posts that recommend that the OP hangs on to a $2.5k single direction converter and then just keep buying more highend stuff around it. We don't know his budget... We don't know his long term studio goals... We don't know his monitoring situation... That is the kind of advice that causes people to invest in a Burl converter before they address the infinitely more important mic / room!

The truth is that you can buy a used Steinberg MR816x or UR824 on eBay for $500. Either would give you 8 channels of excellent sounding ADC / DAC if you record at 96k 24bits. (Recording at sample rates lower than 88.2k can cause some high end roll off, so make sure your computer can handle those higher sample rates)

Does the Burl sound better than a Steinberg... Probably, but we are talking about 1-2% overall difference in your audio between the units at best. Eventually you are going to need a DAC converter for monitoring... Would you get the Burl B2 DAC for another $2.5k? That would be a total of $5,000 for 2 channels of Burl DAC / ADC, vs $500 for 8 channels of Steinberg DAC / ADC. Is 1-2% of a subjective overall quality difference worth an extra $4,500?

I am not telling you to take a massive loss on the Burl B2, but if you can course correct without taking a massive loss then go for it.

Re-focus on Sound Treatment, Mics, Monitoring and developing your engineering skills. All of those things will have a massive impact on your overall finished tracks! The Burl will not... (The microphone is always infinitely more important in the signal chain than a measly Burl converter)
I absolutely agree with this post, but that's not why I'm saying he should hang onto that Burl.

Taking a bath on investments that out of step is just as bad as spending too much on things you keep flipping. It's always at a loss...in this economy if his budget is small, which I assume it totally is since I don't have this opinion that everyone has small fortunes to spend on recording gear, then I have to try to play the role of the dude with more experience doing damage control if I'm acting out of good conscience.

In my opinion monitoring and speakers are THE first step. Above mics and room treatments, you want three good sets of monitors you can trust. A small set of near fields you take the time to learn intimately (so you can lug them anywhere and everywhere to give yourself a touchstone.), a set of Avantone Mixcube style speakers (so you can emulate car speakers and cellphones in mono.), and a small set of really ****ty computer speakers. (So you can mimic the cheapest of the cheap home listening centers. The personal computer.)

The monitor station is nearly as important and you at least need something that isn't going to totally mislead you. Many cheap monitoring stations color the sound, or thin it out (I'm looking at you Mackie Big Knob...God you sound awful.) So we're talking Presonus at minimum and Dangerous and Crane Song level for people who really care about getting the best possible results with their art. (And make no mistake Dangerous and Crane Song both are TOTALLY WORTH THE MONEY. The new Dangerous Source is as cheap as I would go personally and that's about $800.)

You can make pro records with any DAW...so regular Pro Tools...Cubase...Logic...it's all good honestly and if you're not a pro mixing engineer you really don't need to spend more on things like Pro Tools HD...but learning the DAW you do have is key so you can fully utilize it to make the best recordings you can.

Being able to HEAR the choices you make as accurately as possible...with monitors that are set up and tuned to be as flat response as possible allows for you to understand what it is exactly you are doing and how it relates to what you've already done.

By having three sets of speakers which emulate real world environments you can then check your choices against multiple speaker designs, showing you how your mix will TRANSLATE across a broader spectrum of sources.

The idea is that the "photograph" or image of your mix should be tweaked upon until it essentially feels the same when swapping between monitor sets.

If you can't pull that off, you are quite simply flying blind.

Now...after that...AD/DA conversion is huge...and totally important, and maybe he's way too green to fully understand how good the Burl is as an AD. Maybe he doesn't even have a good enough DA to fully hear how good the Burl is. Still...he's already bought it and his only enemy is patience.

Save. Save and wait. Buy other important pieces...and just WAIT...the Burl will be just as good later when you round things out. Use the time in-between to learn more about the craft and try to get people to talk candidly with you so you can make better educated decisions next time so you don't find yourself waiting again.

Mics are important and I agree that the best ones are priceless...but I have also cut major label level vocals with an SM57...know-how trumps gear...and avoiding a loss with your money trumps flipping things due to impatience.
Old 15th October 2013
  #39
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claend's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post
Are you facing a wall directly (you could be creating standing waves!)
Great advice, but that bit hurt my soul.

Try a few different mics and walk from there. Also, take into account different designs and patterns will pick up more or less of the room ambiance.

What kind of music do you want to record? How big is your room?
Old 17th October 2013
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesyourman View Post


Being able to HEAR the choices you make as accurately as possible...with monitors that are set up and tuned to be as flat response as possible allows for you to understand what it is exactly you are doing and how it relates to what you've already done. By having three sets of speakers which emulate real world environments you can then check your choices against multiple speaker designs, showing you how your mix will TRANSLATE across a broader spectrum of sources.
I'm not going to disagree here overall, save the 3 sets of monitors. I see no point in 3 sets of Speakers (1 decent set should see him grow... from were he seems to have come!). Seriously, if the guy simply can not hear his 1st Source Originally and with detail.. then yes it's creating problems for him.....yet again, that source is the "Microphone" & no matter which way you candy your apples, unless he's doing EDM with minimum Acoustic Source inspired work. Say an SM57 into a Vocoder or even Death Metal Vocals etc.

As always It's "The Microphone" that is simply the 1st point of call in any recording chain - Mess with that 1st port of call in a recording chain, or jump that gun and he's back to where he started & now with 3 sets of monitors, and no treatment to make his room Acoustically correct as can be, and listening to offset images he has no idea of correcting! By simply making the Microphone come 1st in his signal chain (with Acoustic Treatment) should certainly allow for his corrections to be minimal. Not confused with 3 sets of speakers telling him differing results and requiring 20 insert plug in's on a Vocal. It's as simple as that!

Room =Acoustics - etc
Microphone = Signal Chain - etc
Old 19th October 2013
  #41
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jdier's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by afterstream View Post
Hi,

I have a neve 1073N and Burl b2 bomber but I feel that my recordings are missing something. I am currently using a $400 microphone. Should I buy a more expensive mic or a compressor?
I don't want to fight all the "treat your room" guys, but depending on the singing style I would guess either an SM7 or a AKG414 would get you close to where you need to be.

Swear off Starbucks for a few months and you will have them paid for.

Regarding the compressor, I used to always use one when I was using my SM7 into an entry level preamp. When I moved to a N72 (which I would imagine has some similarities to your 1073N) I found that the SM7 straight into the pre sounded good to my ears. Even in a untreated room when I had to do some vocals outside the studio.

I do not know the 1073N, but on my N72 I seem to get some natural compression when it is pushed a bit. If you are doing something like opera, that probably would not work, but for rock and roll it works fine.

If sources sound good to your ears in your room, then you probably do not have a huge room treatment problem.
Old 19th October 2013
  #42
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Seriously,
by Room treatment, often a Semi Circular Reflexion Filter for a Microphone and a Duvet or Blanket hung behind is all that is required for a Vocal/Guitar combo, apart from the Whole Acoustic Room Treatment deal:
------------------------------------------
Microphone --> Mic Pre--> (Comp/Lim on Tickle) --> Convertor AD/DA --> Speakers etc. Not everyone needs or requires a world class "Set up" for Great Results or needs to spend 20K$ in year 1-3 etc.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #43
The 1073N can make a bad mic sound good being it can warm up and detail a mic signal not quite like other mic pres. The EQ section is amazing and can really tame harsh frequencies before being printed onto tape or tracked onto daw. Of course the microphone is the main prime source where the signal comes into action so it all depends on the artist or instrument firstly then a microphone that can capture their recording in the vision it was to be conveyed. A compressor can do wonders to a signal and depending on the type of compressor needed it can do just what was needed for the track to work with the mix. This all being said if your chain from the get go isn't at par with the song elements to be captured properly then it seems trying to get a great sound from one piece of gear won't help crutch another to its fullest potential. If I were you I would get the mic first, then at least u know your source is ping to be right, then when the timing is right get your compressor and all will be well. Acoustics play an important role in how the room will behave with your instrument so it is extremely important to have this area taken care of before any other steps are taken. I know a lot of engineers don't think that cables make a difference on the quality of a recording but I do believe a recording signal is only as good as the cable connecting it to the next piece of gear. That being said do some research on poor quality cables and high quality cables to understand the importance of fidelity in your signal chain. To compromise your cables with poorly made components with expensive equipment you are connecting it to is absurd when you look at the time taken to research and purchase all that equipment and the money it took to acquire it all. From my personal experience Stefan Audio Art is my go to for all my cable needs. Like I stated earlier, lots of engineers don't think a cable really makes a difference but when you have an optimal signal chain in effect you may not want to take that chance. If you are curious if I've noticed any difference in cables I would have to honestly say yes because I have done my swapping DBT's and it is a night and day transformation. Even consider vibration control to enhance your equipment as well. Mapleshade is a great store to find vibration control tools to get the best performance out of your hardware. So in conclusion to all of this I think if you have a good handle on room acoustics, vibration control, and cables that are treated and created from quality materials your audio signal will be met with a true high fidelity sound that you will be able to make better decisions on what piece of gear should be swapped, upgraded and recorded through. DAC is extremely important on the end result of your sound so be sure you are happy with your DAC. I know this post was just about mic and compressor upgrade but really does any of that really matter if your signal chain isn't properly treated?

Good luck on your choice and I hope you found my post informative or at the least entertaining

Grip
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