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High end nearfield test Studio Monitors
Old 31st July 2014
  #2281
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkeys View Post
The Amphions are quietly taking over from Geithain here And just when I was about to buy the Geithains. In any case it's an impressive entry. Karloff, do you have any more thoughts about One12 vs One15?
Not yet.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2282
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkeys View Post
The Amphions are quietly taking over from Geithain here
I wouldn't say that - just that some people now have the Amphion to try.

My reading is that both are excellent, but different in their approach.

The Geithain is a fully active co-axial monitor - the Amphion is a passive monitor.

How they present the sound is slightly different and you would choose the one that works best for you.

Hopefully you can try them at the same time to see which works best for you.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2283
ECM
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkeys View Post
The Amphions are quietly taking over from Geithain here
No Monitors take over any other monitors, its to much of a personal preference to say any of the monitors listed are better than the other.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2284
Gear Addict
 

True, that was a sloppy phrase. I didn't mean in terms of quality, just what's happening in this thread The Geithains are outstanding monitors of proven quality and a save value. The Amphions are the shiny new thing. And there are loads of other monitors in the same category. Of course which one to choose depends on ones own ears and personal preferences.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2285
Old 31st July 2014
  #2286
Gear Addict
 

What does it say?
Old 31st July 2014
  #2287
Google translator is your friend :P . It would be great if anyone can speak about the Sveda Audio Dapo rev.2.0.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2288
Lives for gear
 
dotl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EL_HERALDO View Post
Hey, I have discovered a PSI A21 review from a russian website (hifi web):

?? ??????? ?????. ???????? ????????? ???????? ? ??????? ????????? 150 000 ???.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkeys View Post
What does it say?
brother google the translator said that these speakers might be a bad choice for me, apparently. i'm leaning towards the geithains anyway (haven't heard them either so still based on this or similar threads and pro magazine reviews).

the one15 could be an interesting choice too. for the price of the 906 could buy them and better then needed power amp (i guess) but i always preferred active monitors. not just that, the geithains are also co-axial. i.do.no! shall see... need to hear them too, of course.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2289
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
brother google the translator said that these speakers might be a bad choice for me, apparently. i'm leaning towards the geithains anyway (haven't heard them either so still based on this or similar threads and pro magazine reviews).

the one15 could be an interesting choice too. for the price of the 906 could buy them and better then needed power amp (i guess) but i always preferred active monitors. not just that, the geithains are also co-axial. i.do.no! shall see... need to hear them too, of course.
Yep, you don't just need to hear them, you need to work on them. Then you'll know what they feel like as tools. And some of the impressions in this thread may look recognizable then, and some likely won't as you find your own truth.

Not really looking to preach that to you specifically, but felt it was a good thing to post that right about now, as the vibe of the thread is turning into a little hype-ish assumptions vibe around the edges......try the tools, chaps.
Old 31st July 2014
  #2290
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dotl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Not really looking to preach that to you specifically, but felt it was a good thing to post that right about now, as the vibe of the thread is turning into a little hype-ish assumptions vibe around the edges......try the tools, chaps.
yeap, i know what you mean
Old 2nd August 2014
  #2291
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steffenb's Avatar
 

super nice thread, i read it a few times already.

i`am in the market searching for new speakers atm.
thing is, most of the speakers here are way out of my budget
wich is basically 1500€ for two speakers (please dont`t laugh)

it would be possible to stretch to 2000€ max a pair.

my room is treated well and about 3,50x6m.

since i`am doing mostly house/hiphop (bass heavy music)
i need speakers that can go low!

also i often have people sitting next to me so huge sweetspot
is def. a plus.

my work is 60% producing and 40% mixing (home"mastering")

i was looking in the adam a77x direction but i`am not that sure anymore
so any help/pointing me in a direction is highly highly apreciated!
Old 2nd August 2014
  #2292
ECM
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by steffenb View Post
super nice thread, i read it a few times already.

i`am in the market searching for new speakers atm.
thing is, most of the speakers here are way out of my budget
wich is basically 1500€ for two speakers (please dont`t laugh)

it would be possible to stretch to 2000€ max a pair.

my room is treated well and about 3,50x6m.

since i`am doing mostly house/hiphop (bass heavy music)
i need speakers that can go low!

also i often have people sitting next to me so huge sweetspot
is def. a plus.

my work is 60% producing and 40% mixing (home"mastering")

i was looking in the adam a77x direction but i`am not that sure anymore
so any help/pointing me in a direction is highly highly apreciated!

Not really high end but some of the best in that budget to test would be: Quested S7R/S8R, Adam S2X/A77X & Event Opal.

And if you could push a bit more then Geithain RL906 & Adam S3X-V are options, which is going into high end territory.

Not sure on the price of Amphions.
Old 2nd August 2014
  #2293
Gear Maniac
 
Bilou's Avatar
 

You can also take a look at the APS Aeon. Go very low, and have pretty good highs for the price.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #2294
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post

Where a Quested might be a nice Telefunken V72 or old Neve, the PSI a Buzz Audio, the Geithain a GML, the Amphions sound like Gordon Audio... special.
-T
I like this analogy. I have PSI, Geithain, Abacus Cbox 2 speakers. I demoed the Quested 2108. Found it really interesting but vintage regarding to my habits with PSI A21 listenings.
You are confirming my impressions with your analogy.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #2295
Gear Head
 

Hi,
can you say something about the Abacus Cbox2, in comparison to the geithain or psi.. that would be great! thx!
Old 4th August 2014
  #2296
Abacus are a 500€ boxes so I think there is no competition.
Old 4th August 2014
  #2297
Lives for gear
Abacus Cbox 2 are amazing.
I'm a PSi lover (I'm using PSI A21 + Sub A225) and for me the Abacus Cbox 2 compete with PSI A17. More transparent and maybe more inspiring. Only the size of your "screen" is a little bit smaller due to their size. Compared to the Geithain they are less coloured but less warm of course.
Amazing and very useful speakers for mixing. Dan Suter from Echochamber is also using it for mixing in his studio along with PSI a215.
Old 4th August 2014
  #2298
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by priko View Post
Abacus Cbox 2 are amazing.
I'm a PSi lover (I'm using PSI A21 + Sub A225) and for me the Abacus Cbox 2 compete with PSI A17. More transparent and maybe more inspiring. Only the size of your "screen" is a little bit smaller due to their size. Compared to the Geithain they are less coloured but less warm of course.
Amazing and very useful speakers for mixing. Dan Suter from Echochamber is also using it for mixing in his studio along with PSI a215.
Look interesting. But what is up with their bass? They say it goes 'linear to 35Hz'?? Sounds ridiculous, looking at the tiny things. What would you say is their real world F3?
Old 4th August 2014
  #2299
Lives for gear
 
Hjelmevold's Avatar
Well, it looks like the C-box 2 amp is 25W RMS, so I guess one obvious sacrifice is output level... and probably also the harmonic distortion in the bass.

The quoted specs of the Abacus A-Box 5 are ridiculous: "Linear from 16 Hz bis 20.000 Hz" [sic] with just a 5-inch woofer! And the APC series claim to be linear both in magnitude and phase from 16Hz to 22kHz, which I think can only be achieved if you use digital filters with very long buffers, leading to latency...

But of course, if you can live with these (suspected) drawbacks together with using other monitors, the Abacus speakers might work in some situations.
Old 4th August 2014
  #2300
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Look interesting. But what is up with their bass? They say it goes 'linear to 35Hz'?? Sounds ridiculous, looking at the tiny things. What would you say is their real world F3?
They indeed go that deep, but with extremely limited SPL.
Old 4th August 2014
  #2301
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Seems to me instinctively can't result in something I'd think of as 'natural' though........like Hjelmevold is suggesting, some deeper trickery. Not too keen on that.

Feeling more and more drawn to simple but effective passive speakers. No bending of reality, just cooking up a decent, tasty recipe with a couple of good quality ingredients. Like the speaker equivalent of great tasting pea soup. Good, honest, superbly tasty pea soup with bacon. No more complicated recipes.
Old 4th August 2014
  #2302
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Seems to me instinctively can't result in something I'd think of as 'natural' though........like Hjelmevold is suggesting, some deeper trickery. Not too keen on that.

Feeling more and more drawn to simple but effective passive speakers. No bending of reality, just cooking up a decent, tasty recipe with a couple of good quality ingredients. Like the speaker equivalent of great tasting pea soup. Good, honest, superbly tasty pea soup with bacon. No more complicated recipes.
no trickery at all. pretty simple designs and they don't make secrets out of it. the founder is a nice guy and willingly explains his designs. the speakers have their color. but that is more dud to the chassis used and not the design itself. not too natural but still very capable working tools. which mostly relies on their amplifier which is really first class super controlling and not colouring at all. tested the abacus amp with the amphions and that was a pretty good match. probably the best possible match for them. their APC indeed has the proclaimed bandwidth and phase accuracy and is pretty impressive. the design is not secret either. but it is not working too well in a control room for it is very sensitive to placement and furniture or Mixing desks in its way.
Old 6th August 2014
  #2303
Lives for gear
I have only the Abacus Cbox 2 and not the other models of the brand. Dan Suter selected only these models from Abacus and told me it's their best achievement.The Cbox 2 are the smaller one and they are not supposed to be mains. I use it as a second system along with PSI A21 and sub. For me they are fantastic speakers for their price (I prefer it for working over small Adam, small Quested, even over Geithain RL906) and yes because of their size as you guess they have limitations. Present bass but unaccurate bass, limited SPL but enough for me and a room of 15m2.
They work fine in duo with the PSI A21

I will soom demo the Amphion One18 but, I don't expect to compare the Amphion and Cbox2 simply due to the size.
Old 6th August 2014
  #2304
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by priko View Post
I have only the Abacus Cbox 2 and not the other models of the brand. Dan Suter selected only these models from Abacus and told me it's their best achievement.The Cbox 2 are the smaller one and they are not supposed to be mains. I use it as a second system along with PSI A21 and sub. For me they are fantastic speakers for their price (I prefer it for working over small Adam, small Quested, even over Geithain RL906) and yes because of their size as you guess they have limitations. Present bass but unaccurate bass, limited SPL but enough for me and a room of 15m2.
They work fine in duo with the PSI A21

I will soom demo the Amphion One18 but, I don't expect to compare the Amphion and Cbox2 simply due to the size.
Expect to compare the one18's to the A21m's.
Old 6th August 2014
  #2305
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
The Final Choice !

Hi guys !

It is so cool of you to keep this thread going with so many insightful thoughts and comments. Really nice reading indeed !

To be clear I would like to state my final decision in the choice of monitors and why. The monitors I used before this test was Barefoot mm27 and Pmc Mb2 Xbd.

As I stated before . I could probably do my work and be pretty happy with either one of these magnificent monitors. To me it came down to which and how many qualities I needed to be included all together in one design. I finally found the Geithain monitors which completely exceeded all my expectations and had every quality I could wish for in a speaker. I ended up buying the Geithain RL801K1 and the RL944K1 .



The basic point of a studio monitor is to provide a realistic picture of whats going on and show your tracks as true to the source as possible. However.. This thread has shown that realistic is a definition thats not a constant between engineers. Everything affects everything in the world of sound and we all experience differences to how we perceive sound as realistic or "true to the source". I must also confirm that my ears and perception abilities has changed a lot over the years. My abilities to hear balance in a production is definitely much improved compared to my definition of "realistic" reproduction 20 years ago.

It is great to define speakers as punchy , tight , bright , smooth , detailed , open , wide , big , small , slow , fast , translative , accurate , balanced but we have to be aware that these words mean different things to different engineers depending on their experience , education , age , taste , room and acoustical conditions , musical inspiration thru life and so on. Because I decided to walk away from the Barefoots I have heard many accusations about me not being ready to hear my tracks with open pores and magnifying glass. This is of course a very wrong assumption , at least from my point of view.

I have always been very impressed by speakers I have described as hyper detailed like the Barefoot mm27. They show you everything with open pores thru a magnifying glass and adjustment in 0.1 db can be perceived as wrong or right. To achieve such a design is impressive , no doubt about it.
However.. The big downside with these speakers is also the same as its merits . All my material is presented to clear and detailed compared to the real world which makes me go 1 db on the eq instead of 2 db on every track . If I go the hole 2db they screem wrong and my ears hurt even though this would translates better. Along with questionable translation, the lack of inspiration along with hurtful ear-fatigue made me look for something else. The hyper detailed feature is great for editing work but not for everyday mixing and mastering tasks in my experience. It has nothing to do with being afraid of "big pores" but rather my definition of realistic sound reproduction.It seems like some Barefoot owners are offended by me moving on to a different speaker. This is absolutely not my intension and I hope we can share the benefits of being honest to our experience instead of being offended by another mans choice. I refer to my introduction about the definition of realism not being a constant among engineers.

Now .. many people swear by having several sets of speakers side by side to cover these different aspects of monitoring. Every speaker in the test was suffering one way or the other by resonance ,interference and phase deviation by a speaker cabinet nearby. This was also one of the reasons why I did not consider having multiple sets of speakers side by side in my studio but instead one ultimate near field on motorised stands. This way I can have them completely out of the equation when working on the mains.

So.. This is the Geithain qualities I found and fell in love with.

The Truth
I have tried to highlight every aspect of a speaker regarding finding the one with the most truthful picture that interacts with the way I perceive and mix music. This means a reference that produces sound as accurate as possible related to how I interact as an engineer. If I feel like doing a 2db adjustment I want this decision to translate and not having to come back and back it off 1db. I want to be able to compress a drum kit to the point where i feel the beat and know that the speaker is´nt helping me with overly tight or punchy bottom end.
I want the reference to be thru to the source as how I perceive truthfulness . Not to wet , not to dry , not to 3d , not to 2d , not to wide or narrow, not to big or small , tight or punchy but balanced in every way. This was what I found in the Geithains after the gracefully recommendations from fellow gearslutz members.

Sound
I could describe the sound as very balanced ,transparent, detailed and accurate with a big and wide virtual window, but the most describing word would be calm and natural. They don't seem to exaggerate anything and every quality is presented with confidence and calmness. This adds a level of inspiration in the everyday work which naturally has a big impact on the resulting product. They are by no means a flattering monitor and present the flaws as accurate as the pro side of a production. They sound just as natural or thruthful playing a smooth jazz production to a modern rock song making them an accurate reference no matter what genre your in.

Imaging
The imaging is something else on the Geithains and something that " floored" me right away when listening to them. I really don't mean like "high end" little bit better than the rest , but rather a big step and a game changing experience. I measured them after this experience and confirmed a close to perfect phase response better than any other speaker in the test. When i received the bigger RL801K1 I could also confirm a sensational phase response with the same exceptionally imaging features. This contributes to an overwhelming confidence in mixing the balance between the five elements. I don't think the aspect of good imaging can be overdone it just gives you a better control over the different elements of the mix. The only speaker I think came close to the Geithain Imaging was the Amphion .

Frequency response
The Geithains cardioid design along with the concentric driver contributed to the best overall response interaction in my room. I have had speakers that has measured 10db worse in the bottom end compared to the RL944K1.It is like the room isn't really there and I am listening to the direct sound of the speakers rather than the reflections and room interactions. Every note is balance all the way down to about 33hz with more than enough headroom which is exceptionally for a single 8" driver. This makes my brain perceive the sound as very un-confusing , calm, realistic and accurate. The aspect of imaging and frequency interaction made me confident that the steep investment was worth the money.

Translation
The aspect of translation has been tested thoroughly with mixes shared on gearslutz and with fellow engineers in Norway. About 90% of the feedback about translation has confirmed that my interaction with the RL944K1 is the best. I feel more confident mixing and mastering than ever before. I am not sure I work faster than before but I work different and more enjoyable with these in my possession .

Headroom
I tested the speakers for headroom and distortion when pushed. In general the closed box design seems to have less artefacts when pushed. The port design often starts to pump and breathe when pushed a bit. Still..Regarding headroom I would say the Genelec 8260 and the Barefootmm27 was the clear "winners" with seemingly endless headroom . Other than impressing clients I don't see endless headroom as a vital quality as long as its within what you need it to be.
The RL944K1 has a red light that lights when you hit the overloading limit. I have not seen the light yet. Even with cinema settings and modified eq presets that puts an extra load on the elements I feel the headroom is more than enough. They play very effortlessly in a way that don't make me scared when renting out the studio to hiphop producers etc.
Size and virtual window:
When working with main speakers you don't want the line of site to be blocked by a big near field speaker. That is usually the fact if you want a near field speaker that provides a big virtual window to work with. The size of the RL944K1 is about 39cm x 25cm and this speaker provides the biggest virtual window in the test. Every elements seems bigger with more space and separation. This lets me get a closer look on individual tracks in a mix which leads to less soloing and more mixing with multiple elements present in the song. It also contributes to less strain on the ears and more inspiration when working.

Sweet-spot
My experience with speakers with good imaging is that it comes at the cost of a smaller sweetspot. Both vertically , horizontally and front to back. i have confirmed this with most speakers in the test. The Geithains was the first speaker with incredible imaging along with a very wide sweetspot. i take it that the combination of concentric design and cardiode response results in the ear hearing more of the source from one point in space. Direction then comes easier to understand because it comes from fewer points in the room. The same way its easier to determined direction from one mono speaker compared to two speakers summed to mono.
Anyway.. This was a very welcome feature me and my clients love .

Placement and room-interaction
The RL944K1 seems to be the most forgiving speaker to place in the test. The interaction in different rooms , with speakers on their side , close or far from walls etc had far less impact compared to most of the other designs. I did test the Geithains in a very small studio right up to the wall and they still sounded to my satisfaction. I would imagine this to be an indispensable quality for people who need to bring their speakers to different places.

Noise
Though I had some mobile phone interference on the RL944K1 demo model the new model I bought is absolutely silent. The "white" noise from the amplifiers is very quiet and i have to put my ear right up against them to hear them working. The only speaker in the test I experienced as even more silent was the passive Amphion with the hypex Ncore400 amps. Those were close to quiet as in " wonder if they're on ? " . Sitting in front of a speaker that spits noise at you all day long is not healthy so I consider this worth mentioning.

It is important to emphasise that all of this reflects my experience. I can not guarantee whether or not my opinion transfers to any of you but hope nevertheless some might benefit of my line of thought.

( For some reason I was not "allowed" to post pictures . The manage attachment knob is gone in my browser? )

Here is a link to my final setup with Geithain RL801K1 and RL944K1. I even took some pictures with the widescreen elevated down from my ceiling.

Enjoy !

https://www.filemail.com/d/cbdgajdxykybnjf
Old 7th August 2014
  #2306
Lives for gear
Thank you very much for this beautiful thread and conclusion.
For me, there are a lot of things to learn from this thread.
On the technical side, theorical side, on a practical side, but also on a "taste, subjective" side. What's works for you, won't work for another. The truth is not not the same for each one.
It's funny for instance that Ivo Sedlacek who made also a big thread on loudspeakers, swapped from Geithain 801K to Quested V3110.
Luckily from the same mix, you could make 10 differents mixes by 10 differents mixers (mixing also on 10 different speakers) and they could all sound good.
There are not best loudspeakers but loudspeakers that fits to each one, in its own room....
Good luck for everybody to find the right ones!
Old 7th August 2014
  #2307
Gear Head
 

Yes, thanks a lot for your testings!

@priko: He swapped from RL 901k, the 801k has the tweeter array.
Old 7th August 2014
  #2308
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kabelton View Post
Yes, thanks a lot for your testings!

@priko: He swapped from RL 901k, the 801k has the tweeter array.
The 901K and 801K sound the same - but the 901 is designed for a listening distance of 2-4m and the 801 3-6m. That's why the 801 has far more powerful amplifiers and a 3-tweeter array as the treble falls off over distance and the extra are needed to keep the high frequencies accurate over the longer distances.
Old 7th August 2014
  #2309
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The 901K and 801K sound the same - but the 901 is designed for a listening distance of 2-4m and the 801 3-6m. That's why the 801 has far more powerful amplifiers and a 3-tweeter array as the treble falls off over distance and the extra are needed to keep the high frequencies accurate over the longer distances.
Sorry, but this 'all Geithains sound the same' thing is getting me a bit. I have only heard 906's myself, so can't comment, but find it impossible to say 'sound the same' about any speakers from any manufacturer. Shouldn't it be 'sound very similar' in reality??
Old 7th August 2014
  #2310
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Sorry, but this 'all Geithains sound the same' thing is getting me a bit. I have only heard 906's myself, so can't comment, but find it impossible to say 'sound the same' about any speakers from any manufacturer. Shouldn't it be 'sound very similar' in reality??
If you say so - but, when I listened, I found I very difficult to tell the difference between the 906 and the 901 - it was only the extra bass extension on the 901 that revealed it.

I was very surprised how very close they were when I heard them in the same room with the same source.
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