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High end nearfield test Studio Monitors
Old 12th February 2014
  #1621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, they still work for Serban Genea and Tony Maserati amongst many other top mixers........You don't hear issues with smearing in their mixes, do you?
Why would you expect mixes made with a smeary monitor to sound smeared? Would you not mix hyper-detailed to compensate?

Do you think mixes made on monitors lacking in bass to lack in bass?

I don't follow your logic.
Old 12th February 2014
  #1622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
Why would you expect mixes made with a smeary monitor to sound smeared? Would you not mix hyper-detailed to compensate?

Do you think mixes made on monitors lacking in bass to lack in bass?

I don't follow your logic.
It isn't my logic, if you re-read.
Old 12th February 2014
  #1623
I did re-read and I think it is your logic I don't get!

It seems that Keyser Soze found the ProAc Rsponse 2 coloured and smeared, and you were suggesting that if that were true, that should lead to smeared-sounding mixes, since you cited the mixes by Maserati and Genea not sounding smeared was proof that the ProAcs did not sound smeared.

If I have this right, then this is faulty logic on your part, in the same way that bass-thin monitors tend not to result in bass-thin mixes, but the opposite–and for the same fundamental reason.
Old 12th February 2014
  #1624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
I did re-read and I think it is your logic I don't get!

It seems that Keyser Soze found the ProAc Rsponse 2 coloured and smeared, and you were suggesting that if that were true, that should lead to smeared-sounding mixes, since you cited the mixes by Maserati and Genea not sounding smeared was proof that the ProAcs did not sound smeared.

If I have this right, then this is faulty logic on your part, in the same way that bass-thin monitors tend not to result in bass-thin mixes, but the opposite–and for the same fundamental reason.
My logic/example was merely suggesting that however smeared or not they are (which I will leave to everyone's interpretation), they obviously don't get in the way of creating great results. Which is in the end what makes a great tool, not how many transients you can hear or not. Which is ONE aspect of a tool.

There is also another view on the 'situation creates opposite result' theory by the way. Like the assumption that a very bassy room creates thin mixes and such. My experience has actually been that the shape of mixes can well relate the other way to the sound of the room, and not opposite at all, so you DO get a fat mix out of a fat room rather than the opposite, and I am not alone in thinking this. In any case, your theory of smeared speakers creating hyper detailed mixes is flawed, as if the speakers are smeared you can't even hear hyper details.

Before you ask again, let me reiterate, I do NOT suggest smeared monitors to create smeared mixes.
Old 12th February 2014
  #1625
A review of the Grace monitor controller would be great. What I really would like to know is it is worth all that money? Mmmm put in another way, is the difference in the results to your mixing/mastering, etc, so huge that it pays for itself quickly?
Old 12th February 2014
  #1626
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Some request topics to Audiovisjon regarding the upcoming Strauss review:

It apears from your first Strauss impressions that it was a sharp ultra detailed speaker of the kind that made you work more then you personally was looking for in a speaker today. Would you consider it a pure mastering speaker? It is the smallest Strauss speaker so maybe better to focus on the sound fidelity etc, and not so much the frequency range and other size limitations. The sound shold be more or less the same on all the models.
How would you measure it up against Barefoot, PSI, Geithain and others for mixing, and for mastering. Both on a personal level and for the public! If you were going for a second pair with ultra details next to Geithains, Quested etc, would you go for Barefoot, PSI or Strauss?

Kim
Old 12th February 2014
  #1627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimotei View Post
Some request topics to Audiovisjon regarding the upcoming Strauss review:

It apears from your first Strauss impressions that it was a sharp ultra detailed speaker of the kind that made you work more then you personally was looking for in a speaker today. Would you consider it a pure mastering speaker? It is the smallest Strauss speaker so maybe better to focus on the sound fidelity etc, and not so much the frequency range and other size limitations. The sound shold be more or less the same on all the models.
How would you measure it up against Barefoot, PSI, Geithain and others for mixing, and for mastering. Both on a personal level and for the public! If you were going for a second pair with ultra details next to Geithains, Quested etc, would you go for Barefoot, PSI or Strauss?

Kim
Great Question!
Old 12th February 2014
  #1628
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang View Post
As my Studio is pictured here (with the "big" SeMf-2 Strauss pictured), let me just say for now that I really recommend to include Strauss Speakers when comparing monitors. I use all the monitors from Strauss (also the little Se-Nf 3) and couldn't be happier. The level of Detail and the representation of the "depht of field" is on a new level and makes it a joy to work.

Regards
Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com
daniel, we are looking for new monitors right now...we checked pmxc and B&W already...what do you like better about the Strauss? we will cehck KS digital and ATC within the next week, but would love to listen t te strauss...mastering room is 45 sqaure meter

thanks
andy
Old 12th February 2014
  #1629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodebode View Post
A review of the Grace monitor controller would be great. What I really would like to know is it is worth all that money? Mmmm put in another way, is the difference in the results to your mixing/mastering, etc, so huge that it pays for itself quickly?
The Sound On Sound review is HERE.
Old 12th February 2014
  #1630
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benztown View Post
daniel, we are looking for new monitors right now...we checked pmxc and B&W already...what do you like better about the Strauss? we will cehck KS digital and ATC within the next week, but would love to listen t te strauss...mastering room is 45 sqaure meter

thanks
andy
Hi Andy

I checked out several PMC's, but that doesn't do it for me. The highs are not right in the domain of the Depth of field, I always hear them closer than the rest. Also the impulses in the high frequencies do sound a little distorted on all the models. Also I have a hard time judging the under mids really. But I do like them for tracking, as I can be sure that my recordings will never sound harsh. And I never had the feeling I missed something important during the recording when I was mixing). But for what I need during mixing and also mastering they are by fare not acourate enough. B&W I only know the one at Abbey Road. I like to listen Music on them. But I don't like them for either tracking or mixing. The newer one's installed now I like even less then the older 801. To me the highs sounds very "nice", too nice. The Orchestra sounds much better than it is actually recorded. That is great to be fast in the Soundcheck and the client are flashed. But during mix I would have wished I had have something more acourate. Now with the big Strauss all aspects that are important to me (the to me is important) are better. The Drawback with the Strauss might be, that because Mr. Strauss wants to get this unbelievable Precision with a passive design a loudspeaker from him as big as other loudspeakers are more expensive. That is, because it takes a lot of time and thinking until he gets evreything right, as he will not implement any correction. Also he is optimizing the drivers. Many folks have around 10'000 Dollar to spend. With a lot of manufactures for that amount you get a quite big midfield already, where you also can judge the "balls". I.e. PSI or PMC. Strauss for that Price you get "only" the Se-Nf3 Nearfield. His next bigger speaker is already double as expensive (Se-MF1), not to speak about the Price for the Se-Mf2 that I have choosed because I wanted (needed) to get the greatest precision and wanted to be able to also judge the "balls". In a 45 squere Meter room the Se-Mf1 would be great and even the Se-Mf2 would work. The Se-Nf3 is what it is - a nearfield - it is more expensive than other nearfields because it offers more precision. That is what I needed, also for the nearfield, so I spent this money with joy. In Popmixing it is different. I have several Popmixers that also felt in love with this precision. I have others that said they don't need this, because they need something different ( less details, maybe towards a NS10 or whatever works for them). They prefer then to spend, if they have 10'000 maybe for the big psi's ore whatever to have a midfield.
Ok, way too long post - sorry. My fingers are fast sometimes when I am writing.

Btw. I am welcome to show the Strauss in my room. I have all Modells.
Then: There is also the MOD 401 - which is half as expensive as the Se-Nf3. It is for mixing-engineers that wants the Strauss Precision for less money. It really holds very good against the Se-Nf3.

Me too I would like to hear the Meyers one time - and shame on me that I have never heard the ATC's - just one final note with KS Digital, those I heard one model, that was not something that I would have considered as an option, way to cold sounding for my ears.

Cheers
Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com

Last edited by idee und klang; 12th February 2014 at 03:49 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 12th February 2014
  #1631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idee und klang View Post
B&W I only know the one at Abbey Road. I like to listen Music on them. But I don't like them for either tracking or mixing. The newer one's installed now I like even less then the older 801. To me the highs sounds very "nice", too nice. The Orchestra sounds much better than it is actually recorded. That is great to be fast in the Soundcheck and the client are flashed. But during mix I would have wished I had have something more acourate.
How do you know the B&W's were responsible for the "too nice" highs and not something else in the recording chain?

Lets also not forget that we monitor in a different room than what we record in.
Old 12th February 2014
  #1632
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
How do you know the B&W's were responsible for the "too nice" highs and not something else in the recording chain?
I'm an engineer - I do know. Seriously I can say if I like a speaker when I hear it and can give a quite good comment about it and I can for sure say if it is worth for me to test in my own control room (and then give a much more precise feedback). I worked several times with 2 different B&W's at Abbey Road. (Of course the position of the speakers between the glass window and the console is not ideal also but that is another problem). Good possible that if I would work more often there I would get used to it easily, but that does not change my mind that I can clearly say that they would not come in question for my own mixing room. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Lets also not forget that we monitor in a different room than what we record in.
That has nothing to do with it. The real room is anyway gone in a recoding - that is an interesting philosophic discussion about which I often speak with my students, but nothing for here. Just one thing is important: The art of engineering is to bring something to the CD that isn't there in the room, an additional beauty. A Reason that you listen to music on a CD (or LP or whatever). If nothing is there additionally it is only a documentation (at best). Never the less to create this Art I prefer a speaker with great precision. Only in that way I am able to create a great depth of field (but that may be different for others). Moreover when you have to mix a band that is playing virtuoso and an orchestra that function is not to be behind the band but to play fast and loud with the band, well you really appreciate a monitor with precision.
Check my latest project out if you want, it is fun to watch I think:

FINAL MIX: Kolsimcha and London Symphony Orchestra recording Noah at Abbey Road Studio 1 - YouTube

Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com
Old 12th February 2014
  #1633
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Old 13th February 2014
  #1634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kodebode View Post
A review of the Grace monitor controller would be great. What I really would like to know is it is worth all that money? Mmmm put in another way, is the difference in the results to your mixing/mastering, etc, so huge that it pays for itself quickly?
Grace is fast and bit zippy.
Avocet is natural and a bit warm.
Dangerous is even and a bit dry.
Coleman is passive/neutral but might have an impedance issue and can't gain match.
Cheap ones like the PreSonus or Mackie definitely lack the fidelity needed to make most people happy who are making certain critical decisions.

None of these makes you money. They are part of a chain that you build and understand. Your understanding and your skill makes you money, if it's needed in
the current market.
Old 13th February 2014
  #1635
Gear maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, they still work for Serban Genea and Tony Maserati amongst many other top mixers........You don't hear issues with smearing in their mixes, do you?
Yeah, you're right that there's been some very fine work done using the Studio 100's but then there were many brilliant recordings recorded with the Altec 604's as the SOLE monitors. Really I think iit comes down to the people doing the recording, not the monitor involved. I've always believed that someone with great ears and musical instincts can monitor through pretty well anything that makes sound. Conversely somebody without a clue could monitor through Minimain 12's and still come up with crap.

The Response Two's are IMO a good example of the kind of sound you get in the home - pleasant to listen to but a country mile from anything resembling "accurate". Maybe the Studio 100's are way different.
Old 13th February 2014
  #1636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
Yeah, you're right that there's been some very fine work done using the Studio 100's but then there were many brilliant recordings recorded with the Altec 604's as the SOLE monitors. Really I think iit comes down to the people doing the recording, not the monitor involved. I've always believed that someone with great ears and musical instincts can monitor through pretty well anything that makes sound. Conversely somebody without a clue could monitor through Minimain 12's and still come up with crap.

The Response Two's are IMO a good example of the kind of sound you get in the home - pleasant to listen to but a country mile from anything resembling "accurate". Maybe the Studio 100's are way different.
Probably also worth putting a distinction between recording and mixing. Once things are recorded well, to mix them is a different task and doesn't need the same tool.

Not sure the 100's are more 'accurate' than Response 2's. They do have a colour to the sound which is quite apparent, especially after using PSI for a year, but in the end it is just another way of presentation and i actually like it.
Old 15th February 2014
  #1637
can someone point me to Audiovisjon's review of the SM9?

i've just scrolled through 1000's of posts and i'm getting dizzy.
Old 15th February 2014
  #1638
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Thread Starter
Strauss SE-NF-3 first impressions 2 !

Hey guys!

I´v been working hard for another week and can see some of you have been busy at the forum. Very interesting reading indeed.
I am sorry If some posts has passed me by. I will try to address everyone of you as soon as possible .


In my inbox I have gotten a lot of opinions about my first impression of the Strauss SE-NF-3. Many people can relate to the very same things I did and just as many can not.

In this regard I have to emphasise my point thru-out the entire test.... The variables of sound perception.

It seems that for some people it very difficult to understand or acknowledge that the interpretation and sound perception can be quite different for another person compared to what you hear yourself. Our brain is "decrypting" the ears translation of a sound source to provide you with the best interpretation of the source.

Though this human function has many similarities the interpretation is done differently between us based on a lot of factors. The aspect of good feelings , bad feelings , inspiration and joy is also accounted for in this process whether you like it or not.

I worked with a metal band a while ago. This guy was screaming something in my mic for 8 hours I could not interpret. I mostly got the "blood" and "guts" words understandable. This kind of music is at the very outer scale of what I can enjoy and I felt mentally and physically sick after a day with this energy. I talked open about this to the band and they of course had the opposite feeling. One of them said " I get that same feeling about jazz" and they all confirmed....haha

Point is... My "reviews" on this forum is my personal experience and can not be interpret as right or wrong. The perfect speaker for one engineer might be the quite opposite for another. With the Geihains I can open a 80 track mix, hit the mono button, and balance it all out in ten minutes. Its incredible. The only speaker I have been able to do this in a similar manner is with the Pmc Mb2 Xbd (which I still have nightmares about selling). Still ..I have to respect that some well known and respected engineers hate both of these speakers and prefer other qualities in a monitor that interact better with their workflow and sound perception.... Its all good and quite exiting I might add !

During this test I have seen a certain pattern in peoples opinions "behind the curtain" thru "pm´s" and mails. Especially the ones that own the speakers I haven´t put at the top of the list tries to either pick my testing methods apart or question my hearing capabilities ...

I am not feeling bad or anything about this because it is very natural to protect your investment by being biased about the products you have purchased. Many of the speaker manufacturer has contacted me regarding the test. Every one of them has stated that their design is the best and the other speakers in the test just can´t reach the level of accuracy that their speaker can... Again..this is perfectly natural because this is really what they believe and needs to believe to stand by their product..

I have not owned any of these speakers during this test and hope that counts for something. I try to share my experience as accurate, unbiased and honest I possibly can and do not at all try to offend anybody with my opinions. If I did I sincerely apologise !

As with most of the speakers I have had a much better second week with the Strauss monitors and will share my experience in the next post .
Old 15th February 2014
  #1639
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
During this test I have seen a certain pattern in peoples opinions "behind the curtain" thru "pm´s" and mails. Especially the ones that own the speakers I haven´t put at the top of the list tries to either pick my testing methods apart or question my hearing capabilities ...

I am not feeling bad or anything about this because it is very natural to protect your investment by being biased about the products you have purchased. ........................................................................................

As with most of the speakers I have had a much better second week with the Strauss monitors and will share my experience in the next post .
lol....I bet you have heard it all by now. I felt to post a thank you for your not giving a crap about all that and just writing it how you found it regardless, which is exactly what has made this thread so valuable.

Looking forward to your second thoughts on the Strauss.....although they will likely give me GAS.....
Old 15th February 2014
  #1640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
Hey guys!

It seems that for some people it very difficult to understand or acknowledge that the interpretation and sound perception can be quite different for another person compared to what you hear yourself. Our brain is "decrypting" the ears translation of a sound source to provide you with the best interpretation of the source.

Though this human function has many similarities the interpretation is done differently between us based on a lot of factors. The aspect of good feelings , bad feelings , inspiration and joy is also accounted for in this process whether you like it or not.
Its unfortunate that some felt soo strongly as to have to pm you saying you're wrong Audiovisjon, but I guess I can understand feeling protective over something they truly believe in and was a big investment to them.

But I totally get where you're coming from. By far the most important aspect in the end is productivity, achieving the end goal of a great mix in an efficient manner. Even though I'm very pro PSI and love their ruthless dry rawness and analytical approach, I totally understand why this wouldn't work for everyone and for some even make it very difficult to work with at all!. I've never heard the Geithains but it sounds from your descriptions like they strike a good middle ground between details and musicality. It doesn't make me want to switch monitors because after 3 years I've adapted to the PSI well, but I still respect your personal views and think this is still one of the best threads on gearslutz regarding monitors and I'm sure most of the readers feel that way too
Old 15th February 2014
  #1641
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To me the PSI line is only "musical" when the presentation is right, and they deliver an instant sense of "I have heard this before" when playing back reference material we know and understand. In other words it sounds like what I know good mixes sound like, and what I know bad mixes sound like. The speaker itself stays out of the way.

Their analytical nature, letting you hear the effects of compression and EQ etc without really having to listen to hard...is huge.

I like that they did it without sounding "cold" though!

War
Old 15th February 2014
  #1642
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The thing I really like about this thread, is that Audiovisjon has tested every monitor carefully and objectively and has removed all his personal biases from the tests.

So much so, that he ended up selling his monitors and ordering two pairs of the ones that came out best for him.

But he still gave clear comments on what every monitor was doing, so anyone who wanted something different gets a good idea of the characteristics of each monitor.

So, thanks Audiovisjon, this really is an excellent thread that should be stickied for all time.
Old 15th February 2014
  #1643
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Hi chaps - am using K+H 0300Ds with the 0800 sub here and wondered how the PSI25s compared as a self contained entity, without sub.

Might have to get KMR to send some over for comparison.
Old 15th February 2014
  #1644
did the SM9's ever get tested?
Old 16th February 2014
  #1645
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Oskari J.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyglover View Post
did the SM9's ever get tested?
I followed the entire thread, and as far as i can recall - no. They were delayed because of high demand and never reched Audiovisjon
Old 16th February 2014
  #1646
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyglover View Post
did the SM9's ever get tested?
Hey mate! I have really tried the best I can to get the Sm9 in the test but so far the distrubutor has not been able to provide me with a pair. I paged them again last week and are waiting for the answer..
Old 16th February 2014
  #1647
Gear interested
 

Proac 100 vs Geithain rl 906

Hi everyone,

after reading all (nearly) of this thread, i would love to know if anyone knows both Proac 100 and Geithain rl906 to help me making a choice on a set of new speakers.


I ve been working on my Proacs studio 100 powered by a Studer A68 and i am very inteersted in switching for another system and that might be the 906 after everything i ve read here...thanks to Audiovijon for this amazing thread and to everybody participating!

I m waiting for a reply from ME geithain to see if 906 are available to listen to in Paris but for now if anyone could help...

Thank you
Old 16th February 2014
  #1648
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipolo View Post
Hi everyone,

after reading all (nearly) of this thread, i would love to know if anyone knows both Proac 100 and Geithain rl906 to help me making a choice on a set of new speakers.


I ve been working on my Proacs studio 100 powered by a Studer A68 and i am very inteersted in switching for another system and that might be the 906 after everything i ve read here...thanks to Audiovijon for this amazing thread and to everybody participating!

I m waiting for a reply from ME geithain to see if 906 are available to listen to in Paris but for now if anyone could help...

Thank you
"Knows" is overstating it, but I have heard both (had the Geithains at mine for a few days), and the 906's are special monitors. I would say, do what you can to get them into your place to try out.

I would also say, they are best very close up and have a limit on how loud they go before the bass loses it and brakes up (which isn't an issue when very close up).
Old 16th February 2014
  #1649
Gear interested
 

Karloff thanks for your reply.

I m quite close to my speakers, 1.5m and i work at quite low levels.

What do you mean by "special" ?
Old 16th February 2014
  #1650
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipolo View Post
Karloff thanks for your reply.

I m quite close to my speakers, 1.5m and i work at quite low levels.

What do you mean by "special" ?
Sounds like the perfect setting for a pair of 906's. Special as in 'WoW'. They are a pretty holographic sonic display tool. You'll see.
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