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High end nearfield test Studio Monitors
Old 3rd February 2014
  #1561
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimotei View Post
I just sent $80 to David/Audiovisjon to help cover his shipping costs. To me this is an investment in knowledge and passion. Very few have contributed so it would be great if more people would step up! We need 10 to 20 people atleast if its going to make an impact. Its better to give a little then nothing. Everything counts, dont be shy! Instead of buying an audio magazine consider using that money here. Im sure you can find a similar solution! $100, $50, $20 whatever you can afford or whatever its worth for you. He is making sacrifices for us so the least we can do in return is show some love and help him out. He deserves it and you all know it. Lets go!

I would also like to give warm thanks to his wife and family for keeping up with this! <3


Kim
So nice of you Kim! Most appreciated!

I just received the Strauss SE-NF-3 today and will be working with them for a singer/songwriter project this week. They look great and the built quality seems very good out of the box.. I will try to post some pictures later on..
Old 3rd February 2014
  #1562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
So nice of you Kim! Most appreciated!

I just received the Strauss SE-NF-3 today and will be working with them for a singer/songwriter project this week. They look great and the built quality seems very good out of the box.. I will try to post some pictures later on..
Your most welcome! The joy is on my side as we say in Norway. Wish I had more to spare.
Old 3rd February 2014
  #1563
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paul brown's Avatar
@Audiovisjon. PM me your details. i'll contribute. it has been a great review of a diverse range of options PLUS you've patiently dealt with Q&As. Bravo!
Old 4th February 2014
  #1564
Gear interested
 

Very interested if Mr. Strauss said anything to you (Audiovisjon) about the way in which the 5 inch woofers of the se-nf-3 are supposedly able to dish out 38 hz... I guess im also interested in anything he said to you at all really, he seems like a very interesting person though theres not much on the web about him or his design philosophy.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1565
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevman881 View Post
Very interested if Mr. Strauss said anything to you (Audiovisjon) about the way in which the 5 inch woofers of the se-nf-3 are supposedly able to dish out 38 hz... I guess im also interested in anything he said to you at all really, he seems like a very interesting person though theres not much on the web about him or his design philosophy.
You can get a 5" to dish out 38hz. The issue is the db level and distortion levels.

You're not gonna get it to dish out 38hz at high dbs and low distortion.

In theory, you can make a 5" subwoofer....it just won't hardly any clean volume in it. I think there's 2.1 computer speaker systems (i.e., pair of stereo with a sub) out there that probably have a 5" sub.

Think about headphones and earpieces
Old 4th February 2014
  #1566
Gear interested
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
You can get a 5" to dish out 38hz. The issue is the db level and distortion levels.

You're not gonna get it to dish out 38hz at high dbs and low distortion.

In theory, you can make a 5" subwoofer....it just won't hardly any clean volume in it. I think there's 2.1 computer speaker systems (i.e., pair of stereo with a sub) out there that probably have a 5" sub.

Think about headphones and earpieces
Ahh yes good point, but from all the reviews ive read, this thing supposedly actually sends out a deceptively copious amount of low end given its size as a near field monitor. This leads me to think that something unique is going on. (and obviously this woofer has to reach up to the midrange unlike a dedicated sub)
Old 4th February 2014
  #1567
PMC twotwo.6 Inquiry

Hey all,

I PM'ed Audiovisjon, but realize that he may be bogged down with requests.

Mods, please feel free to delete if my question is off topic.

Can anyone on here comment on whether or not the new PMC twotwo.6 monitors are in the same league as the ATC SCM25, Barefoot MM35 GEN2, PSI A21, Focal SM9, Unity Audio Rock/Boulder etc.?

As of now, I'm about to pull the trigger and my favourite to date are the Barefoot GEN2 series. If the 2-way PMC twotwo.6 can give them a run for their money, then I may go that option to save ~$2500 CAD.

I guess I'll never know until I try, but can anyone chime in on PMC twotwo series quality, before I commit to some costly shipping expense(s)?

Thanks in advance,

Phil
Old 4th February 2014
  #1568
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dandeurloo's Avatar
Phil, I thought the two.two.eights sounded really good. I would try to demo those. They are great speakers.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1569
PMC & Barefoot

Thanks for the response!

The PMC twotwo.8 monitors are substantially more expensive than the twotwo.6. I can get the (3-way) Barefoot MM35 GEN2 for less than the (2-way) PMC twotwo.8.

I'm thinking - if I require more low end with the twotwo.6, I'd eventually grab the PMC sub in due time (if I decide on the PMC route). I also really like the DSP features and optional PMC remote. The optional remote is a monitor controller that allows one to take advantage of the AES monitor input (and attenuate volume without curtailing bit rate). This would allow me to bypass my Apollo DA monitor path, thus using only the PMC circuitry for my monitoring system. This is definitely a large benefit for me.

The converters (AES inputs) on both the Barefoot GEN2 and PMC twotwo series are playing into my 'project studio' consolidation path philosophy.

Thomas Barefoot has also alluded that he's working on an elegant monitor controller/solution that takes advantage of the AES inputs on his GEN2 speakers. I emailed the website on more details. I'd assume it would be similar in function to the PMC remote. I'll post details here if I get an answer regarding my Barefoot inquiry.

The only reason why I'm on here trying to gather opinions on the PMC twotwo.6 monitors is because they have a couple neat features, and are substantially cheaper than the Barefoot speakers.

If the PMC twotwo.6 monitors are 85-90% of Barefoot quality, then I'll seriously consider them. The Unity Audio Rock MK2s also look like a great 'bang-for-buck' option, but it has been cumbersome getting a Canadian vendor on board (despite Unity Audio's willingness to get me a pair). I'm a little reluctant to ship UK products (Unity Audio/PMC) from the USA into Canada due to additional import fees. Luckily, I've found a Canadian PMC distributer.

There's so many great options out there and so much fun to be had. I just need to shut up, commit and continue having fun enjoying music.

Most importantly, thanks Audiovisjon for such a great and informative thread.

Cheers,

Phil



Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
Phil, I thought the two.two.eights sounded really good. I would try to demo those. They are great speakers.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1570
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevman881 View Post
Ahh yes good point, but from all the reviews ive read, this thing supposedly actually sends out a deceptively copious amount of low end given its size as a near field monitor. This leads me to think that something unique is going on. (and obviously this woofer has to reach up to the midrange unlike a dedicated sub)
Well, it appears to be in a big ported box (relative to the cone size). The bigger the box, the better bass response usually....along with ported tuning, etc.

Put all the components of the NS10ms into a sealed box 2-3 times the size of the original and you will get better bass. Port/tune it, again, more bass.

That being said, there are of course trade offs, just giving examples....
Old 4th February 2014
  #1571
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Well, it appears to be in a big ported box (relative to the cone size). The bigger the box, the better bass response usually....along with ported tuning, etc.
Please be aware that PMC monitors are a Transmission Line design and *not* a Bass Reflex design.

Old 4th February 2014
  #1572
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Please be aware that PMC monitors are a Transmission Line design and *not* a Bass Reflex design.

To be honest, I never quite got their 'Transmission Line' branding....it still looks like a Bass Reflex to me Bass reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Bass reflex system (also known as a ported, vented box or reflex port) is a type of loudspeaker enclosure that uses the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to increase the efficiency of the system at low frequencies as compared to a typical closed box loudspeaker or an infinite baffle mounting.

A reflex port is the distinctive feature of a very popular enclosure variety. The design approach enhances the reproduction of the lowest frequencies generated by the woofer. The port generally consists of one or more tubes mounted in the front (baffle) or rear face of the enclosure. Depending on the exact relationship between driver parameters, the enclosure volume (and filling if any), and the tube cross-section and length, the low frequency limit or efficiency can be substantially improved over the performance of a similarly sized sealed box enclosure.


...albeit with more baffles and distance (tube length), ala 'tuning' than the typical ported design. Either way, it's still using the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to boost lows, by definition it's a bass reflex.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1573
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Please be aware that PMC monitors are a Transmission Line design and *not* a Bass Reflex design.
And BTW, I was responding to poster regarding the 5" woofer Strauss monitors, not the PMC monitor discussion.
(I was wondering why you brought up PMC, now I see why)
Old 4th February 2014
  #1574
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Please be aware that PMC monitors are a Transmission Line design and *not* a Bass Reflex design.
Isn't a "Transmission Line" just a way to make the box seem longer by "folding" it internally? In other words, just a variation on a Bass Reflex design?

Alistair
Old 4th February 2014
  #1575
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
To be honest, I never quite got their 'Transmission Line' branding....it still looks like a Bass Reflex to me Bass reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Bass reflex system (also known as a ported, vented box or reflex port) is a type of loudspeaker enclosure that uses the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to increase the efficiency of the system at low frequencies as compared to a typical closed box loudspeaker or an infinite baffle mounting.

A reflex port is the distinctive feature of a very popular enclosure variety. The design approach enhances the reproduction of the lowest frequencies generated by the woofer. The port generally consists of one or more tubes mounted in the front (baffle) or rear face of the enclosure. Depending on the exact relationship between driver parameters, the enclosure volume (and filling if any), and the tube cross-section and length, the low frequency limit or efficiency can be substantially improved over the performance of a similarly sized sealed box enclosure.


...albeit with more baffles and distance (tube length), ala 'tuning' than the typical ported design. Either way, it's still using the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to boost lows, by definition it's a bass reflex.

To term a "Transmission Line" as a "Bass Reflex" is very wrong.

This video on the PMC site explains.

A Bass Reflex design and a Transmission Line work in different ways and should not be confused or interchanged with each other.

A ported monitor is not necessarily a "Bass Reflex".

For instance the ME-Geithain "K" series have ports - but this is different again and is the outlet for an internal network that works in the same way as a cardioid microphone to make the loudspeaker have a cardioid pattern at low frequencies (where all other designs go omni-directional).

So - please - use the correct terminology - it is confusing to others when you don't.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1576
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Isn't a "Transmission Line" just a way to make the box seem longer by "folding" it internally? In other words, just a variation on a Bass Reflex design?

Alistair
It's a lot more than that - see my post above.

A Transmission Line works in a different way from a Bass Reflex.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1577
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dandeurloo's Avatar
Video doesn't work?
Old 4th February 2014
  #1578
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
So - please - use the correct terminology - it is confusing to others when you don't.
I think the terminology is confusing.

Loudspeaker enclosure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A perfect transmission line enclosure has an infinitely long line, stuffed with absorbent material such that all the rear radiation of the driver is fully absorbed, down to the lowest frequencies. Theoretically, the vent at the far end could be closed or open with no difference in performance. The density of and material used for the stuffing is critical, as too much stuffing will cause reflections due to back-pressure, whilst insufficient stuffing will allow sound to pass through to the vent. Stuffing often is of different materials and densities close to the cone, and changes as one gets further from the cone.

Consequent to the above, practical Transmission Line loudspeakers are not true Transmission Lines, as there is generally output from the vent at the lowest frequencies. They can be thought of as a waveguide in which the structure shifts the phase of the driver's rear output by at least 90°, thereby reinforcing the frequencies near the driver's Fs. Transmission lines tend to be larger than ported enclosures of approximately comparable performance, due to the size and length of the guide required (typically 1/4 the longest wavelength of interest).
Old 4th February 2014
  #1579
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
To term a "Transmission Line" as a "Bass Reflex" is very wrong.

This video on the PMC site explains.
Interesting. Thanks for the links.

Alistair
Old 4th February 2014
  #1580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
To be honest, I never quite got their 'Transmission Line' branding....it still looks like a Bass Reflex to me.
Sometimes, fortunately not too often, I wonder if this site really is a "professional" audio forum.

How about getting a good book about loudspeaker theory and design? And I mean a book not internet site, as usually there is some sort of quality assessment before you can get one published.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1581
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
Sometimes, fortunately not too often, I wonder if this site really is a "professional" audio forum.

How about getting a good book about loudspeaker theory and design? And I mean a book not internet site, as usually there is some sort of quality assessment before you can get one published.
How about you explain to me how PMC's 'Transmission Line' design isn't a variation of a bass reflex as opposed to 'Not' being a bass reflex?

PMC's own video claims they use the port to reinforce the bass, by definition that's bass reflex.

As mentioned in the above wiki links, in a true 'Transmission Line' design, it wouldn't matter if the port was open or closed, yet in the PMC, that's not how their boxes are tuned.

I get that PMC is using Transmission Line theory, but they're also making use of bass reflex. If someone can explain how there's no bass reflex in PMC's Transmission Line designs, I'm all ears...
Old 4th February 2014
  #1582
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
Video doesn't work?
It works fine with me - the link takes you to the PMC website and you click "play" to play the video.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1583
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
How about you explain to me how PMC's 'Transmission Line' design isn't a variation of a bass reflex as opposed to 'Not' being a bass reflex?

PMC's own video claims they use the port to reinforce the bass, by definition that's bass reflex.

As mentioned in the above wiki links, in a true 'Transmission Line' design, it wouldn't matter if the port was open or closed, yet in the PMC, that's not how their boxes are tuned.

I get that PMC is using Transmission Line theory, but they're also making use of bass reflex. If someone can explain how there's no bass reflex in PMC's Transmission Line designs, I'm all ears...
As Petrus says - read up on it.

A transmission line is very different from a bass reflex and works in a different way.

Your comments bring confusion and not clarity.

Simply put - a bass reflex is a hole in the cabinet - normally with a tuned pipe so that the bass frequencies are reinforced. There is no absorption in a bass reflex design.

A transmission line is a long damped tube designed to totally damp out (absorb) all the rear energy from the drivers - in fact the opposite of a bass reflex.

In the PMC design, they allow the very lowest frequencies out to act as an extra LF driver - this is not how a bass reflex works.

PLEASE - read up an understand how these things works, rather than spreading misinformation.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1584
Gear Maniac
 
Oskari J.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
To be honest, I never quite got their 'Transmission Line' branding....it still looks like a Bass Reflex to me Bass reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Bass reflex system (also known as a ported, vented box or reflex port) is a type of loudspeaker enclosure that uses the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to increase the efficiency of the system at low frequencies as compared to a typical closed box loudspeaker or an infinite baffle mounting.

A reflex port is the distinctive feature of a very popular enclosure variety. The design approach enhances the reproduction of the lowest frequencies generated by the woofer. The port generally consists of one or more tubes mounted in the front (baffle) or rear face of the enclosure. Depending on the exact relationship between driver parameters, the enclosure volume (and filling if any), and the tube cross-section and length, the low frequency limit or efficiency can be substantially improved over the performance of a similarly sized sealed box enclosure.


...albeit with more baffles and distance (tube length), ala 'tuning' than the typical ported design. Either way, it's still using the sound from the rear side of the diaphragm to boost lows, by definition it's a bass reflex.
I thought the definition of bass reflex was that you tune a specified volume of air to resonate at a certain frequency, and pass this resonating column of air into the outside world via a port, to increase the output at the tuning frequency (and surrounding frequencys of course).

But a transmission line design does not work with the principle of resonance, or does it? I thought it simply damped unwanted frequencys and delayed remaining frequencys so that they arrive at the baffle in phase with the driver at frequencys you wish to boost.

Correct me if im wrong, im still learning.
Old 4th February 2014
  #1585
Old 4th February 2014
  #1586
PMC

Is the PMC TwoTwo monitor series in the same league of quality as Barefoot GEN2, ATC SCM25, Focal Twin/SM9, PSI A21, Unity Audio Rock/Boulder?

Regards,

Phil
Old 4th February 2014
  #1587
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
As Petrus says - read up on it.
Simply put - a bass reflex is a hole in the cabinet - normally with a tuned pipe so that the bass frequencies are reinforced. There is no absorption in a bass reflex design.
Simply put, hardly any bass reflex design has no absorption. All the bass reflex speakers I've had in the past and present have absorption.

In most all cabinets there's absorption. And especially in bass reflex designs there's lots of stuffing/absorptions to take out the higher frequencies, increase apparent 'size', along with baffling, tube lengths, etc.

I get that the PMC's transmission line is more heavily damped absorption wise, and that it's specifically tuned, but the bass frequencies ARE reinforced in the PMC Transmission Line port.

So, if the PMC transmission line has a port in which the 'bass frequencies are reinforced', and most all bass reflex designs have absorption, then....?
Old 4th February 2014
  #1588
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oskari J. View Post
I thought the definition of bass reflex was that you tune a specified volume of air to resonate at a certain frequency, and pass this resonating column of air into the outside world via a port, to increase the output at the tuning frequency (and surrounding frequencys of course).

But a transmission line design does not work with the principle of resonance, or does it? I thought it simply damped unwanted frequencys and delayed remaining frequencys so that they arrive at the baffle in phase with the driver at frequencys you wish to boost.

Correct me if im wrong, im still learning.
That sounds like it
Old 5th February 2014
  #1589
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barefoot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
To be honest, I never quite got their 'Transmission Line' branding....it still looks like a Bass Reflex to me
Sometimes, fortunately not too often, I wonder if this site really is a "professional" audio forum.

How about getting a good book about loudspeaker theory and design? And I mean a book not internet site, as usually there is some sort of quality assessment before you can get one published.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
To term a "Transmission Line" as a "Bass Reflex" is very wrong.
Actually, Fleaman makes an excellent observation. Transmission lines and bass reflex cabinets can be considered closely related. So can sealed cabinets for that matter. There is a well known AES paper by Backman from the early 90’s that develops a mathematical model for transmission line speakers. It’s essentially the equivalent of a box, a transmission line (duct) and a port in series. In that paper he shows how his transmission line model can accurately describe the behavior of sealed box and bass reflex speakers as well. The sealed cabinet is simulated by making the transmission line cross sectional area very small. In other words, closing off the duct. The bass reflex speaker is simulated by setting the transmission line length to zero. A pure transmission line sets the cabinet volume and port length both to zero. So the three different speaker types can almost be seen as a continuum. One can design a speaker that’s weighted towards any single type or is a little bit of each. Real world transmission line speakers are almost always hybrids.

Incidentally, his paper also shows that below the cutoff frequency transmission lines have better transient response than bass reflex speakers but worse transient response than sealed speakers. In the pass band the transmission line transient response is worse than both bass reflex and sealed types.

Cheers,
Thomas
Old 5th February 2014
  #1590
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by barefoot View Post
Real world transmission line speakers are almost always hybrids.

Cheers,
Thomas
That's how I've always kinda thought/looked at the PMC Transmission Line design....there's some bass reflex going on in there. It's not mutually exclusive of it. Especially considering the path/absorption in the PMC boxes is far from infinite.

....and all I was really trying to say....
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