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High end nearfield test
Old 7th August 2013
  #121
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Thanks, your place looks great!

Did you consider the 17M's and sub?

I'm also interested how you think the 21's compare to the three way design of the 0300's.

I worry that two ways leave a hole in the mid's, although in truth, that conclusion is based on me having very little understanding about speaker design.

A few things I'd appreciate feedback on is the overhang of the bass response with 21's being a ported design.

I find the 0300's being of an infinite baffle design have a fast speaking bass articulation.

Also if the treble response in nice and flat, I had a pair of Focal Twins on demo around the time I bought the 0300's and I thought the tweeters on the Twins where uber hyped and useless to me for serious mixing.

Thanks
Thanks man... I like my work environment and my customers seems to enjoy the room too.

I usually find it hard to work with sub in a nearfield position. Its hard to integrate as a second unit so I tend to lean on working with near fields with extended bottom end instead.

First of all.. You don't have to worry about leaving a hole in the mids when choosing a 2 way design. Three way designs have the potential of producing higher spl because of the opportunity to separate frequencies into more bands and therefore leaving each element with less power to handle. This have the potensial to result in less distortion leaving the speaker as a hole more accurate. On the other hand the design is more complicated and requires more parts and a more expensive production to reach its potensial.

It is more likely to assume that a two-way design is "better" in terms of built quality than a three-way design at the same price. Usually the more complex design needs to use cheaper parts to be able to meet the same price-point.

Make sense ?

Regarding the A21 vs the 0300. They sound very different. Due to the remarkable transient response of the A21 I think this speaker separates individual instruments better...making everything smaller with a sense of more space around every track. The 0300 have a bigger soundstage and seems to make tracks sound "bigger" than what I hear on the Psi´s. With some friends (musicians not mixers ) in the studio they pick 0300 over A21 in blind tests every time.
The 0300 sounds more pleasing with "extended" highs and warmer bottom. The vocal sounds bigger and warmer. To me they sound more colored and more forgiving than the PSI´s.... The A21 has no bling factor that attracts "inexperienced " listeners but have a better balanced frequency response and a transientrespons that makes it a more detailed speaker revealing flaws and errors better then 0300 in my opinion.
I find my self being more tired working with Psi than the 0300. This is probably due to the more forgiving tone of the 0300 and at the same time the unforgiving transient response to the Psi´s.

The Psi goes higher in spl than the 0300 but reveals the downfall of the ported design when cranking up the volume. 0300 preserves a better and tighter bass response at high volumes. At more normal listening levels the bassrespons is bigger but softer and not as detailed as the Psi .

I have to admit that I usually like the bass response with sealed cabinet designs over ported designs. Especially at levels that makes me wanna move to the beat..haha The only design I have found to match a proper sealed cabinet is the transmission line design of the Pmc range.

Hope that helps for now
Old 7th August 2013
  #122
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Bjorn Omholt's Avatar
 

The most important aspect of a loudspeaker is the power response. How the speaker measures both on-axis and off-axis. While everyone can design something that measures well on-axis, off-axis is more difficult.

If you desire a speaker that also have controlled directivity in order to reduce speculare reflections, horn/waveguide is what you want to look after. And size matters greatly here. Something like a 6,5" waveguide will never yield a great polar response. I would say 10" should be the minimum for a good waveguide speaker. That means you may have to look for speakers in other places then the typical commercial market. A corner horn speaker is even better with CD lower in frequency but raises the price and demands corners.
Old 7th August 2013
  #123
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post

The Psi goes higher in spl than the 0300 but reveals the downfall of the ported design when cranking up the volume. 0300 preserves a better and tighter bass response at high volumes. At more normal listening levels the bassrespons is bigger but softer and not as detailed as the Psi .

I have to admit that I usually like the bass response with sealed cabinet designs over ported designs. Especially at levels that makes me wanna move to the beat..haha The only design I have found to match a proper sealed cabinet is the transmission line design of the Pmc range.

Hope that helps for now
I'm surprised you'd say that, given that one of the main complaints about the 0300 was the damn limiter that kicked in on the woofer when driving them at high volume, which significantly affected the bass. It's one of the main things they focused on fixing for the new KH310 model.
Driving the PSI hard I don't notice any port chuffing issues at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwo View Post
The most important aspect of a loudspeaker is the power response.
I would argue every aspect of a studio monitor is important. Frequency, phase, transient, overal dynamic, dispersion, THD, IMD etc. Every monitor has its strengths and weaknesses in different areas.
Old 7th August 2013
  #124
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
I'm surprised you'd say that, given that one of the main complaints about the 0300 was the damn limiter that kicked in on the woofer when driving them at high volume, which significantly affected the bass. It's one of the main things they focused on fixing for the new KH310 model.
Driving the PSI hard I don't notice any port chuffing issues at all.



I would argue every aspect of a studio monitor is important. Frequency, phase, transient, overal dynamic, dispersion, THD, IMD etc. Every monitor has its strengths and weaknesses in different areas.
Well.. To me they handle bass better or "different" to my likings at higher volumes . I don´t mean at the level when the limiter kick in but before that. I had to attenuate the Psi about 4db to match the lower level of the 0300 for AB testing.Maybe that can affect the performance on higher levels ? I´l check.

It seems like the Psi amp is struggling a bit more to deliver the bottom frequencies at higher volumes in my room. Also remember that my room is pretty big and the speakers are over 2meters from the back wall. My ceiling is about 4meters high. I am used to experiencing overall better performance from bigger and better amps in my room. I need some "weight" to make everything sit right. The Psi would still be a great tool for me and I would have no problems working with them.

I absolutely agree in your last post regarding whats important in a speaker :-)
Old 7th August 2013
  #125
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Quote:
Hope that helps for now
Thanks for a great post.

You actually describe the reasons I like my 0300's.

My mode of operation is to use the 0300's for critical editing of vocals etc where their non fatiguing quality saves my ears.

Then when I mix I tend to crank the volume and get the bottom end working, so the 0300's infinite baffle design keeps the bottom end nice and tight then I spend 70% of the rest of the mix on my lovely original 1970's auratones.

Then finally another listen back on the 0300's.

I'm less sure now I need to change my 0300's. I'm sure the 21's are stunning and I'd love a pair in addition to the 0300's if I could afford it, but the easy breazy nature of the 0300's sound stage suits my sensitive hearing (in the past I have suffered from a few bouts of tinnitus) which I have never had again since I got the 0300's.

I'm thinking now if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Again thanks for taking the time to post all that great info, much appreciated.
Old 7th August 2013
  #126
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Thanks for a great post.

You actually describe the reasons I like my 0300's.

My mode of operation is to use the 0300's for critical editing of vocals etc where their non fatiguing quality saves my ears.

Then when I mix I tend to crank the volume and get the bottom end working, so the 0300's infinite baffle design keeps the bottom end nice and tight then I spend 70% of the rest of the mix on my lovely original 1970's auratones.

Then finally another listen back on the 0300's.

I'm less sure now I need to change my 0300's. I'm sure the 21's are stunning and I'd love a pair in addition to the 0300's if I could afford it, but the easy breazy nature of the 0300's sound stage suits my sensitive hearing (in the past I have suffered from a few bouts of tinnitus) which I have never had again since I got the 0300's.

I'm thinking now if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Again thanks for taking the time to post all that great info, much appreciated.
My pleasure mate! I would probably look at the A25 to complement the 0300. As midfields they are stunning speakers and would complement a pair of KH very well. The psi a21 and a25 are actually very similar in tone but I was very impressed by the soundstage of the A25 and everything else about it. I cant however recommend this speaker to be your only pair but in addition to a pair of nearfield ....exellent!!
Old 7th August 2013
  #127
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Perhaps I've missed it but what's your conclusion regarding the PMC AML2 vis-a-vis the other speakers in this test? Earlier in the thread it seemed to be a favourite. How did your AML2 mixes fare in the translation department?
Old 7th August 2013
  #128
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
Again thanks for taking the time to post all that great info, much appreciated.
Yes, big thanks to Audiovisjon for a great description of the fundamental differences in the two products. Best I have read here! And so helpful for those of us that live in locations where auditioning such a wide range of top end products is logistically impossible. I would love it you would be able to expound on the ATC and the PMC in a similar way.
Old 7th August 2013
  #129
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petergreeny View Post
Perhaps I've missed it but what's your conclusion regarding the PMC AML2 vis-a-vis the other speakers in this test? Earlier in the thread it seemed to be a favourite. How did your AML2 mixes fare in the translation department?
Since I have a fairly big room and lot of air around my nearfield speakers I dont get the bassboost from backwall reflections. This exposes particularly the low end in speakers that dont have the "weight" enough for driving the room.
Regarding low end the aml2 is simply stunning in my room. So balanced.. and it reaches all the way down to 30 hz. The only speaker I have had so far to match this is the Barefoot mm27 which is twice as big.

I really dont care if the faceplate or some knobs are plastic etc. This design in combination with the internal Bryston amps makes a stunning speaker. As always I still think it is room for improvements... If I could get the stunning imaging from the PSI ´s, the 3d depth of the atc midrange, the revealing nature of Barefoot and the low end of the pmc I might think otherwise..

I still think I would choose AML2 over ATC scm25 in my room. The mix I did on aml2 and atc both translated very well and I wouldent have a problem working with either. However I had much more fun working with aml2 with no guesswork in the bottom end. The confidence and feel I got from this speaker was awesome. To me this is also an important factor.. Having fun !
Old 7th August 2013
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by potscrubber View Post
Yes, big thanks to Audiovisjon for a great description of the fundamental differences in the two products. Best I have read here! And so helpful for those of us that live in locations where auditioning such a wide range of top end products is logistically impossible. I would love it you would be able to expound on the ATC and the PMC in a similar way.
Thanks mate ! I appreciate it

I will try to get into more detail for every speaker when the time allows me to do that. Off the shelves I think all of these speakers is great working tools..more or less. Some of the speakers I have tested like Genelec 8260 , Psi A25, AdamSx3 are great speakers but for my work only in addition to a pair of dedicated nearfields .
Regarding the ATC I have heard a lot of good things about this speaker but mostly about the midrange. I have to admit that I had the hopes up for this speaker but it did not meet my expectations. To me the highs are similar to the very balanced highs of the Psi´s. Together with the great midrange it has very good potensial but the low mids and low end are unbalanced and to unfocused for a speaker at this pricepoint.The same goes for the amp headroom. In my opinion this does not put this speaker in the league of Pmc Aml2 or Barefoot mm27. But as stated in earlier posts the room is "everything" and I would think the atc scm25 is better suited for a smaller room than mine compared to mm27 and aml2.

I will try to measure these speakers in another room to back up my assumptions and to see if some similarities of my readings will show up.. ( I will probably get a lot of heat from the atc owners for this one )


Bye the way : I just got thumbs up from Sennheiser Nordic. They are shipping me a pair of Neumann KH310. Would be cool to have both Kh0300 and Kh310 side by side so I hope the arrive soon :-) Still waiting for the Focal Sm9. I am the next in line..
Old 7th August 2013
  #131
This is not a funny thread...
Not to rough discuss...
No thread where people argue...
No ifs, ands, or buts...

This is one the most informative and most interesting threads in GS.

Audiovisjon, many thanks for your great effort and detailed posts.


I'm curious about further results.

R.
Old 7th August 2013
  #132
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Taurean's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
...Bye the way : I just got thumbs up from Sennheiser Nordic. They are shipping me a pair of Neumann KH310. Would be cool to have both Kh0300 and Kh310 side by side so I hope the arrive soon :-) Still waiting for the Focal Sm9. I am the next in line..
heh I shot out the sm9 against the 310... wooo, no contest.
Old 8th August 2013
  #133
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
Well.. To me they handle bass better or "different" to my likings at higher volumes . I don´t mean at the level when the limiter kick in but before that. I had to attenuate the Psi about 4db to match the lower level of the 0300 for AB testing.Maybe that can affect the performance on higher levels ? I´l check.

It seems like the Psi amp is struggling a bit more to deliver the bottom frequencies at higher volumes in my room. Also remember that my room is pretty big and the speakers are over 2meters from the back wall. My ceiling is about 4meters high. I am used to experiencing overall better performance from bigger and better amps in my room. I need some "weight" to make everything sit right. The Psi would still be a great tool for me and I would have no problems working with them.

I absolutely agree in your last post regarding whats important in a speaker :-)
Yeah I haven't noticed any issues at higher volume with the bass on the PSI myself. I think the O300 limiter on the woofer kicks in at 85db@1m?, if the listening position is 2m away then the volume would be pushed a bit higher. Could be when the limiter kicks in it creates greater harmonic distortion giving rise to a sense of more pronounced bass. Because of the way our hearing works with louder sounds everything tends to start sounding more mid-rangey anyways so one could counter the other.
But you could be right maybe its just a room interaction thing, different monitors suit difference spaces and all that
The power handling is actually one of the things I like about the PSI the most, the fact that you push them louder and they just sound louder, not compressed, and the tweeter I could work for hours and hours with, no fatigue at all, unlike metal tweeters which my ears simply cannot stand at all!.
Old 8th August 2013
  #134
Gear Addict
I too tried the SM9 against the KH310.
Liked the focals a lot more. The 310 sound a bit more plastic in comparison

Sent from my GT-P3110
Old 8th August 2013
  #135
Gear maniac
 

The 310s to me sound completely unnatural, along with the KH120. Alienated and coloured.

I would never enjoy mixing on those.
Old 8th August 2013
  #136
Gear Maniac
any chance of comparing Trident HG3 also
Old 8th August 2013
  #137
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

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Originally Posted by optionalanalogue View Post
any chance of comparing Trident HG3 also
I´m sorry to disappoint but I don´t think so. This has already been quite expensive and takes a lot of effort and time as well. I have to draw the line somewhere. Hope you understand..

I´m waiting for the Focal Sm9, Neumann KH310 and the new Barefoot mm27 Gen2 and that will be it for now.

When these arrive I have been testing 14 pairs of monitors in the same room with a pricepoint at about 35 000 to 80 000 Nkr (Norwegian kroner).
Old 8th August 2013
  #138
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Originally Posted by TranscendingM View Post
heh I shot out the sm9 against the 310... wooo, no contest.
I demoed the Focal Twins and personally just couldn't get with the sound of the tweeters not sure if it was the beryllium material or simply the design and voicing.

The Twins where making drum overheads that I knew for certain needed some 10K adding, sound just right without any additional EQ. This screamed "bright monitors" to me.

Do the SM9's being the next level in the Focal family have a smoother flatter top end extension or do they have the same tweeter material/design/voicing?

Thanks
Old 8th August 2013
  #139
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Taurean's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I demoed the Focal Twins and personally just couldn't get with the sound of the tweeters not sure if it was the beryllium material or simply the design and voicing.

The Twins where making drum overheads that I knew for certain needed some 10K adding, sound just right without any additional EQ. This screamed "bright monitors" to me.

Do the SM9's being the next level in the Focal family have a smoother flatter top end extension or do they have the same tweeter material/design/voicing?

Thanks
Same material, not the same sound. Sm9 is from another planet.
Old 8th August 2013
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I demoed the Focal Twins and personally just couldn't get with the sound of the tweeters not sure if it was the beryllium material or simply the design and voicing.

The Twins where making drum overheads that I knew for certain needed some 10K adding, sound just right without any additional EQ. This screamed "bright monitors" to me.

Do the SM9's being the next level in the Focal family have a smoother flatter top end extension or do they have the same tweeter material/design/voicing?

Thanks
They still flatter things more yes compared to more accurate monitors, some like it, some don't. (re: sm9)
Old 8th August 2013
  #141
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Taurean's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomox View Post
They still flatter things more yes compared to more accurate monitors, some like it, some don't. (re: sm9)
I didn't get "flattering" in my tests: test tone plots as well. But I am reserving my final verdict for a couple of weeks then I will report back.
Old 8th August 2013
  #142
Gear Head
 

I just started breaking in my sm9's. From reading here, it appears it takes many hours to get them pumping their full potential. Super tired at work today because I stayed up listening to all my favs. At one point my face hurt I was smiling so much. Just an amazing set of monitors.
Old 8th August 2013
  #143
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedevil View Post
I just started breaking in my sm9's. From reading here, it appears it takes many hours to get them pumping their full potential. Super tired at work today because I stayed up listening to all my favs. At one point my face hurt I was smiling so much. Just an amazing set of monitors.
Wait after a month they sound incredible! The midrange takes a bit longer.
Old 8th August 2013
  #144
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Sorry If I am side tracking you here ! Did you consider any passive speaker's and amp combo's (I know there pages of stuff active v passive) To add to the group test ?

I know why 99% of new stuff is active and but some of it must be down to profits !

But Some of use like to have remote amp in rack in plant room (Me for heat reasons) And ok some mains have removal or remote amps (atc)
Old 8th August 2013
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
Since I have a fairly big room and lot of air around my nearfield speakers I dont get the bassboost from backwall reflections. This exposes particularly the low end in speakers that dont have the "weight" enough for driving the room.
Regarding low end the aml2 is simply stunning in my room. So balanced.. and it reaches all the way down to 30 hz. The only speaker I have had so far to match this is the Barefoot mm27 which is twice as big.

I really dont care if the faceplate or some knobs are plastic etc. This design in combination with the internal Bryston amps makes a stunning speaker. As always I still think it is room for improvements... If I could get the stunning imaging from the PSI ´s, the 3d depth of the atc midrange, the revealing nature of Barefoot and the low end of the pmc I might think otherwise..

I still think I would choose AML2 over ATC scm25 in my room. The mix I did on aml2 and atc both translated very well and I wouldent have a problem working with either. However I had much more fun working with aml2 with no guesswork in the bottom end. The confidence and feel I got from this speaker was awesome. To me this is also an important factor.. Having fun !
Great info - thanks very much. I'm using PMC AML-1 and love them, so was curious about your experiences with the AML-2.
Old 8th August 2013
  #146
Gear Maniac
totally unserstood Audiovisjon, but if anyone else following this thread can give an impression as to how Trident HG3 matches up to any other monitors in this test it would be helpful as the Trident HG3 thread is reporting them as the best thing since sliced bread at their pricepoint ,it would be useful to have comparison type perspective
Old 9th August 2013
  #147
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by emearg_s View Post
Sorry If I am side tracking you here ! Did you consider any passive speaker's and amp combo's (I know there pages of stuff active v passive) To add to the group test ?

I know why 99% of new stuff is active and but some of it must be down to profits !

But Some of use like to have remote amp in rack in plant room (Me for heat reasons) And ok some mains have removal or remote amps (atc)
I´m open for anything. Which passive monitors do you suggest I should consider ?
Old 9th August 2013
  #148
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YOHAMI's Avatar
 

Spiral Groove's Studio Ones?
Old 9th August 2013
  #149
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Hjelmevold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOHAMI View Post
Spiral Groove's Studio Ones?
I don't know anyone in Norway, or any of my friends in Europe for that matter, who has them. And I'm guessing there's no European distributor for them either?
Old 9th August 2013
  #150
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf Ebitsch View Post
This is not a funny thread...
Not to rough discuss...
No thread where people argue...
No ifs, ands, or buts...

This is one the most informative and most interesting threads in GS.

Audiovisjon, many thanks for your great effort and detailed posts.


I'm curious about further results.

R.
So nice of you mate ! I really enjoy this thread to...So many educated people with well thought thru opinions. Its easy to be offended by people like me if I say something bad about the speakers your working on. I really hope people realize that I have to judge by what Im hearing in my room with my equipment. It is very well possible that my opinions would change at your place
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