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High end nearfield test
Old 23rd July 2013
  #31
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonwerker View Post
yes - but this is by definition not a nearfield!
The normal definition of a nearfield monitor is a speaker small enough to sit on a stand or desk in proximity to the listener, so that most of the sound that the listener hears is coming directly from the speaker, rather than reflecting off of walls and ceilings (and thus picking up coloration and reverberation from the room).

I think however with many new designs the proximity to bigger speakers can be closer because of better elements and drivers that provide the listener with a faster and longer linear excursion. This results in a bigger and "longer" usable soundstage that makes placement of the speaker more flexible. I think this is why some manufactors refer to the mid/nearfield label on some products. There are even products with the label main/mid and near field that confirms this.
Old 23rd July 2013
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post

I have been training my ears for 20 years...
I believe that to hundred percent.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post

... and promise to be brutally honest in this review.
Exactly that I expect to hundred percent.


Lovely greetings,
Rolf
Old 23rd July 2013
  #33
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Hjelmevold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
Do you import Geithain?
No, the Geithain distributors closest to Norway are in the UK/Germany, since audiodog.se closed down last year. That is of course a factor to take into account before purchasing, in case repairs are needed, etc.
Old 23rd July 2013
  #34
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John Willett's Avatar
 

The listening distance of the Geithain RL-906 is 1m to 2.6m.
Old 23rd July 2013
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hjelmevold View Post
No, the Geithain distributors closest to Norway are in the UK/Germany, since audiodog.se closed down last year.
Hello Audiovisjon,
nevertheless simply ask in the German Geithain company.

Impressum

Maybe they send you a few monitors.

A question costs nothing... usually we Germans are very open at something like that.

Only an idea.
R.
Old 23rd July 2013
  #36
Lux
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Have you thought about listening to the Trident HG3?
Old 23rd July 2013
  #37
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
I always find people helpful and the germans are no excepsion.. I have to draw the line somewhere though. Shipping monitors over and back over the border has already cost me a lot of money. My wife is giving me the look everytime a box get delivered...
Old 23rd July 2013
  #38
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hjelmevold View Post
No, the Geithain distributors closest to Norway are in the UK/Germany, since audiodog.se closed down last year. That is of course a factor to take into account before purchasing, in case repairs are needed, etc.
I see and agree. I also like to buy gear thru the right channels and support our distributors and the service they provide when its possible. However ...I blew my middriver on my mains because of a defect circuit. Pmc took my word for it and sent me a brand new middriver the same day with tools to change it..no cost!! Now that is service:-)
Old 23rd July 2013
  #39
Gear Addict
Did you try the focal sm9?

Sent from my GT-P3110
Old 24th July 2013
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarz View Post
Did you try the focal sm9?

Sent from my GT-P3110
yes I am curious as well
Old 24th July 2013
  #41
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Harvey Gerst's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lux View Post
Have you thought about listening to the Trident HG3?
I'd be interested in that as well.
Old 24th July 2013
  #42
interesting thread. I will put an eye on this....
Old 24th July 2013
  #43
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ac55's Avatar
 

This is a great shootout - would be absolutely wonderful if you could add a pair of Spiral Groove Studio Ones to the lot!
Old 24th July 2013
  #44
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ac55 View Post
This is a great shootout - would be absolutely wonderful if you could add a pair of Spiral Groove Studio Ones to the lot!
That would be very interesting, especially if you already include the A21m's.
Old 24th July 2013
  #45
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What speakers are you using / have you been using for a while (some years?) up until now?

Just curious as to which speakers you will be comparing all of these new ones to, and which you intend to replace with one of them.
Old 24th July 2013
  #46
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Regarding Focal sm9 , HG3 and Geithain these are on my radar. Focal sm9 is probably a go and a fellow gearslut ( Mr.Hjelmevold) has been so kind to offer me a loan of the Geithain and possibble the HG3.

PSI A21M and Neuman KH310 is on the way.
Old 24th July 2013
  #47
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubrichie View Post
What speakers are you using / have you been using for a while (some years?) up until now?

Just curious as to which speakers you will be comparing all of these new ones to, and which you intend to replace with one of them.
Hey Richie!

As a mikser I have been familiar with many monitors over the years. My own and also the ones at the many studios I have been working.
When I started my pro buisness in 1994 I had Quested mains and dynaudio nearfield. I have worked with different models of Westlakes,Genelecs,Adam,Dynaudio,Quested,Yamahas,Jbl,PMC,Barefoot,Hummel O Klein for longer periods of time and many others for shorter terms.

I have worked with Barefoot mm27 for two years now and I went from Adam S3X and quested 3208 before that.

Hope that helps!

Here´s a picture of my testenvironment ( drums removed ofcourse) :
Attached Thumbnails
High end nearfield test-lydspesialisten-studio.jpg  
Old 24th July 2013
  #48
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Taurean's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiovisjon View Post
Hey Richie!

As a mikser I have been familiar with many monitors over the years. My own and also the ones at the many studios I have been working.
When I started my pro buisness in 1994 I had Quested mains and dynaudio nearfield. I have worked with different models of Westlakes,Genelecs,Adam,Dynaudio,Quested,Yamahas,Jbl,PMC,Barefoot,Hummel O Klein for longer periods of time and many others for shorter terms.

I have worked with Barefoot mm27 for two years now and I went from Adam S3X and quested 3208 before that.

Hope that helps!

Here´s a picture of my testenvironment ( drums removed ofcourse) :
Such a vibey room
Glad to hear about the sm9's in the "mix"
Old 24th July 2013
  #49
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac55 View Post
This is a great shootout - would be absolutely wonderful if you could add a pair of Spiral Groove Studio Ones to the lot!
Hey mate! As a pro dealer I have access to most monitors in norway thru their distributor. The Geithain , HG3 and Spiral Groove has no distributor in norway that I know of. That makes it harder and much more expensive to include them If I can´t find anyone to loan them to me. Im also a little worried about people questioning my opinion of monitors outside my dealership in spite of that I'm doing this for educational purposes only.

Reviewing all these monitors takes a lot of time, effort and money. Im really glad you all appriciate this with follow ups , comments, opinions and own experiences.
Old 24th July 2013
  #50
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Yes, thank you, that helps very much!

NICE studio man! Looks like a really lovely place to work!
Old 25th July 2013
  #51
Gear Maniac
atc scm 25a vs neumann kh 310

Great work & thanks so much for your efforts so far as this shootout is going to be very helpful to all of us in shortlisting possible new monitors - as neumann kh 310 have been described as resembling ATC SCM 25a with less punch - it would be really interesting to hear your comments as to how close the Kh 310's get to the ATC scm25a's which some have described as being overpriced, if Neumann's are getting e.g. 90 % + of the way to the sound of ATC scm25a at approx. half the price then it would be a no brainer for some of us.
Old 25th July 2013
  #52
Gear Addict
For me the neumans sound nothing like the ATC SCM 25

Sent from my GT-P3110
Old 25th July 2013
  #53
Great work!

/Jon
Old 25th July 2013
  #54
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Continental's Avatar
 

i work with the quested vh2108, s7r & a great pair reftone,
ok i fall in love with quested :-)
never look back to my old monitors....
Old 25th July 2013
  #55
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Ben F's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by optionalanalogue View Post
Great work & thanks so much for your efforts so far as this shootout is going to be very helpful to all of us in shortlisting possible new monitors - as neumann kh 310 have been described as resembling ATC SCM 25a with less punch - it would be really interesting to hear your comments as to how close the Kh 310's get to the ATC scm25a's which some have described as being overpriced, if Neumann's are getting e.g. 90 % + of the way to the sound of ATC scm25a at approx. half the price then it would be a no brainer for some of us.
The Neumann use the ATC midrange.
Old 25th July 2013
  #56
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Hjelmevold's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
The Neumann use the ATC midrange.
Both monitors use soft-dome midrange drivers, but I would be very surprised if it turns out that both are manufactured by ATC. Nevertheless, the whole system is different (crossover, amplification, etc.) so they could sound very different even if using the same driver.
Old 25th July 2013
  #57
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
The Neumann use the ATC midrange.
To my knowledge it is only the larger pmc s that use the midrange manufactured by atc. This was some years ago so the facts may have changed.
What I can promise is that these speakers sound very different as a result of the design.. The specs on kh310 are incredible and almost to good to be true. Especially for a sealed box design. Cant wait to try them out!
Old 25th July 2013
  #58
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
The Neumann use the ATC midrange.
The O300 may have done, but I'm pretty sure the KH310 uses a new Neumann driver.
Old 26th July 2013
  #59
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Old 26th July 2013
  #60
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Audiovisjon's Avatar
Ok!
So ..during the review I have in addition to standard listening tests been remixing some older songs/demos I´v written in the past. The vocal performance on these demos was not very inspiring so I decided to leave them out and focus on the drums,bass and guitars etc. I have kept some background vocals that worked on some songs.

I´v mixed one song/arrangement on each pair of speakers and AB tested the mix again on each pair of speakers to see what they told med.So Mm27 might tell me that the guitars mixed on Atc was a bit thin and the Atc would tell med that the drums on the song mixed on Aml2 was to thick and wet etc .... You get the picture..
Then I have tried the mixes in other environments like the car , living rooms etc to see which speaker had the most "useful" and true information.

Now it gets interesting :

I have done four mixes for now with speakers I have been around for a short period of time ( except mm27 ). Every mix translated pretty good in the studio but each monitor also told me something different that would have resulted in different mix decisions.

During the test in the living rooms,cars etc the result was quite different. The information was almost exclusively different on the same song from place to place. In one room two songs could sound pretty identical in the bass region while in another room one of the songs sounded to boosted in the low end.

Why is that ? This is the answer to every mixers daily nightmare : THE CLIENT TEST ROUND . We have all been there. The client takes your mix with them and copy the cd to all the members in the band. The day after you get seven mails with different opinions on how to improve the track. Usually its a good sign if there is one thing that every member agrees on. Then that thing should be addressed .

So again.. Why ?

Every speaker and every room has a different way of translating sound. Soundstage , transient response, frequency response, phase etc etc will alter the sound and the balance of your mix drastically .
So why do two mixes sound well balanced in one room and only one of the songs unbalanced in another room..

I think most of the answer to this lies in the song KEY :

As a result of reflections in any room the perceived frequency response is altered based on pretty much the room size, design and inventory. In the studio we try to get rid of these reflection so we can mix in a "reflection free zone" and hear the direct sound from the speakers.
Usually this is not the case in living rooms or cars.

This means that if the reflections in the room causes a boost or dip i certain frequencies that frequency will affect your song more or less based on what KEY you produced it in...in addition to the frequencies in the percussion and other " no note" instruments.

Lets say you recorded a song in D major. The fundamental frequencies in D is about 36,5hz 73hz , 146hz and so on. If the room has a buildup around 73 hz you will hear the note D louder than any other note despite the fact that it is not louder on the recording. If the room has a dip around 1170hz every instrument in that area or say vocals hitting D5 will be affected more than other frequencies not affected by the room.
The result is that the song played in D major is perceived as less balanced than a song played in say G major.

When I tell this in " lehman's terms" to my clients they often come back and confirm this. I heard the mix in three different rooms and the bass was nice and even in the other two rooms. They want to keep the mix and your off the hook..
In an ideal world I would want them to come back and say my mix sounds great and exactly the same in every room but I even want to change the balance of my best reference mixes in some rooms so thats not gonna happen.

Thats why its crucial in the studio to have a listening environment and a set of speakers that doesn't tell you to compress or eq the note D or G harder when its already balanced. Push the vocal more forward when its there...drive the bass harder because you cant hear the lowest notes clearly and so on. You start compensating for your room and that will reflect on a mix that will translate even more poorly.

Notes and key relate to frequencies and what button to push. How can we know what button to push if our perceived frequencies is wrong or badly affected by our speakers.

This is why I think this test is so important ! None of your buttons or faders will have any value if you are constantly fooled by which to push .

This was a long post but its hard to stop..haha Does this make any sense to you guys ?
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