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Old 2nd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3721
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Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
Ok, they both sound good but i guess you can like one more the other, right? If not then you’re still not there. It’s like you can’t choose between two potential life partners. All that means is that neither is good enough.
No, in this case it just means you don't get it.
Old 2nd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3722
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dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
No, in this case it just means you don't get it.
You think that it’s bc of speakers but probably you just can’t make up your mind. You think it’s a speaker’s fault but it’s your indecisiveness at play (probably with poor acoustic memory) so you need a special kind of speakers to help you with that.
Nothing wrong with that if that works with you, just better stop accusing speakers and see things as they are. You’re giving a bad rap to speakers for wrong reasons. Not fair to PSI Audio! You’ve been doing this for yeeeeaaars! Time to stop man
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3723
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
Ok, they both sound good but i guess you can like one more the other, right? If not then you’re still not there. It’s like you can’t choose between two potential life partners. All that means is that neither is good enough.
This is why I am looking for something else for sure. Is anything every good enough? Hah. I am a bit of a speaker freak and have been comparing some excellent, small two ways for another listening system. Proac Tablette 10, Buchardt s400, Triangle Comete Ez and Elac BS403- using Psi as a reference I am very used to. They are all very good in slightly different ways and I'm not sure there is any perfect speaker- that I can afford at least. Some are better in different rooms, distances, for different genres of music, etc. This may be obvious but it's is why it's so hard to pick one life partner- I want them ALL.
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3724
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dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgechon View Post
This is why I am looking for something else for sure. Is anything every good enough? Hah. I am a bit of a speaker freak and have been comparing some excellent, small two ways for another listening system. Proac Tablette 10, Buchardt s400, Triangle Comete Ez and Elac BS403- using Psi as a reference I am very used to. They are all very good in slightly different ways and I'm not sure there is any perfect speaker- that I can afford at least. Some are better in different rooms, distances, for different genres of music, etc. This may be obvious but it's is why it's so hard to pick one life partner- I want them ALL.
Aren’t we all bc neither will give us everything we need. It’s just a question will this one give me enough, or should i at least add someone here and there. Now, back to speakers!

p.s. but at least let us try not to ask others to help us with our decisions, neither our mothers nor opinionated speakers
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3725
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
You think that it’s bc of speakers but probably you just can’t make up your mind. You think it’s a speaker’s fault but it’s your indecisiveness at play (probably with poor acoustic memory) so you need a special kind of speakers to help you with that.
Nothing wrong with that if that works with you, just better stop accusing speakers and see things as they are. You’re giving a bad rap to speakers for wrong reasons. Not fair to PSI Audio! You’ve been doing this for yeeeeaaars! Time to stop man
Like I said, you don't get it.
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3726
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I'm pretty sure I have read Karloff praising Psi- until he found the Amphions working better for him. I don't read this as him bashing the brand or anything. I think you would have to be a little crazy to say Psi are not great all around speakers and compete well in their price range. We are of course nitpicking tiny faults or shortcomings based on our unique ears and individual needs for monitors. I could give up the ultimate mixing monitor for something that is fun and inspiring during production. If I am in the room with a few people and we are cranking the speakers with bass heavy music patching things in and out (most likely drinking and smoking) I think I would rather have Psi than the smaller Amphions. There have been a few times I probably would have blown out speakers that don't have limiters built in. There are many pros and cons to weigh with every speaker. I get why big studios have mains and nearfields but I am hoping to find one smaller set to cover everything.
Old 3rd December 2020
  #3727
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Speaking of PSI, why do the A23 costs the same as the larger A25?
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3728
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
The 20ASL has the SL woofer features (the 25A and 45A don't). That's what makes the bass even tighter and more precise.
And the mids (even with being a two-way) are excellent and carry the ATC sound.
The 20ASL has the ATC tweeter (like a mini ATC midrange) -- which is better than the 25A's vifa unit.
I wouldn't discount the 20ASL as not being a true ATC speaker seeing it has the woofer, tweeter, and amp design (a 2-channel version of the large ATC speaker amplifier) of the classic ATC speaker (50ASL to 150ASL models.)

The ATC tweeter is nothing like the ATC midrange and would be daft if they designed the tweeter just to look like their mid - it's designed from the ground up as a tweeter - shouldn't have any of the same materials or properties of materials.

I also don't think the SL drivers have tighter bass particularly. I think much of the "SL" nomenclature is simply down to a ring of a particular material that evens out the magetic field and therefore has a more predictable behaviour.
Tightness of bass surely comes from the size of the motor assembly and the amp driving it, not to mention enclosure design.

Do these well marketted, named "features" actually make much difference or is it mostly down to the overall design of a speaker?

I'd say it's mostly the latter, and those details of driver design would normally not be mentioned in any other monitor manufacturer's design using a third-party drivers, even though they may have just as many technical "features" doing all the same things..
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3729
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lowkey's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
As a fellow Amphion One15 owner I’d agree with this. The One15s seem to have an opinion. They shout at me “this sux”. When I make a change they say “worse” or “ok move on...that other part also sux”. Only after a lot of yelling do they say “you’re done”.

Other speakers have been more like “I dunno, it could go either way, that’s up to you...you’re the artist”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I owned PSI A21's for a year. Can totally relate to what you are saying. The way I perceived it is that all the info was there. If you looked for it. But they wouldn't tell you what to do. They would just lay it on the table, very discretely, and then in a Swiss manner butt out on a sort of impartial tip and leave you to it. The Amphions that I use now are Finnish and very direct. lol. They tell me what to do with no uncertainty. Until it's done.

A great tool to work on isn't just about what you can hear. It's massively about what it makes you do. Or doesn't.
Old 3rd December 2020 | Show parent
  #3730
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pentagon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
The ATC tweeter is nothing like the ATC midrange and would be daft if they designed the tweeter just to look like their mid - it's designed from the ground up as a tweeter - shouldn't have any of the same materials or properties of materials.
It's a double-suspension soft dome just as the midrange. It isn't to "look" like the midrange. It is a design decision from moving what they learned on their midrange. The magnet and the dome fabric material are different. Engineered for a tweeter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
I also don't think the SL drivers have tighter bass particularly. I think much of the "SL" nomenclature is simply down to a ring of a particular material that evens out the magetic field and therefore has a more predictable behaviour.
What do you think the result of this is -- the "More predictable behaviour"? It's to dampen third-order harmonic distortion. Lack of distortion in bass results in perceived "tightness." In all forms of mechanical motion of a driver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
Do these well marketted, named "features" actually make much difference or is it mostly down to the overall design of a speaker?
Once upon a time you could get the exact same speaker with and without SL woofer. It was noticeable.
Old 4th December 2020
  #3731
Gear Nut
 
6000's Avatar
 
This will be an unpopular opinion cause I know that Amphion are the current flavor but when I tested One15 along with PMC TwoTwo 5, KH 120 and PSI 5 inches, I preferred KH 80 DSP to all of them. All are great speakers for sure. They are stunning speakers that punch much higher than their size and price tag so don't be fooled. They're very similar to 310 but with less bass obviously but better midrange and imaging - probably the best I've heard from a nearfield aside from ATC 20s.

I also just added the KH 750 DSP sub which in combination with their newly released MA 1 calibration suite will make an absolutely stellar monitoring system...
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3732
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Moreisless's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6000 View Post
This will be an unpopular opinion cause I know that Amphion are the current flavor but when I tested One15 along with PMC TwoTwo 5, KH 120 and PSI 5 inches, I preferred KH 80 DSP to all of them. All are great speakers for sure. They are stunning speakers that punch much higher than their size and price tag so don't be fooled. They're very similar to 310 but with less bass obviously but better midrange and imaging - probably the best I've heard from a nearfield aside from ATC 20s.

I also just added the KH 750 DSP sub which in combination with their newly released MA 1 calibration suite will make absolutely stellar monitoring system...
Interesting.. Were you able to hear them all in your own space? Did you mix on all of them or just listen? I don’t love listening to music on the Amphion 15 series but man I mix fast on them!
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3733
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I owned PSI A21's for a year. Can totally relate to what you are saying. The way I perceived it is that all the info was there. If you looked for it. But they wouldn't tell you what to do. They would just lay it on the table, very discretely, and then in a Swiss manner butt out on a sort of impartial tip and leave you to it. The Amphions that I use now are Finnish and very direct. lol. They tell me what to do with no uncertainty. Until it's done.

A great tool to work on isn't just about what you can hear. It's massively about what it makes you do. Or doesn't.
LOL.......are you advocating for speakers or their country’s cultural achievements? Swiss?.......Finnish?.......direct?.......I’m hoping this is just a bad translation....if not........kinda silly.
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3734
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Genelec is also from Finland, there's something special going on with that country 😉
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3735
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Russell Dawkins's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor noob View Post
Genelec is also from Finland, there's something special going on with that country 😉
That country and England, France, Germany Denmark, USA, Poland, Serbia, etc., etc.
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3736
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhem13 View Post
LOL.......are you advocating for speakers or their country’s cultural achievements? Swiss?.......Finnish?.......direct?.......I’m hoping this is just a bad translation....if not........kinda silly.
If you don 't understand that the mentioning of countries in reference to perceived attributes of the speakers was indeed a joke, then yeah, that would be kind of silly.
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3737
Gear Nut
 
6000's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moreisless View Post
Interesting.. Were you able to hear them all in your own space? Did you mix on all of them or just listen? I don’t love listening to music on the Amphion 15 series but man I mix fast on them!
I did indeed, tested them extensively...Amphions were really great and second choice but preferred the imaging, DSP capabilities (now with Neumann mic and software) and their midrange...plus they're active. Wasn't impressed by PMCs and PSIs as much as I thought I would be. KH 80 DSPs make you work really hard to make it sound right but beautifully mixed music (Steely Dan's Aja, D'Angelo's Black Messiah etc.) sound amazing through them. Sub is really optional, they pack plently of punch...I was shocked since they're only 4". Sound On Sound review is spot on for more details.
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3738
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dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor noob View Post
Genelec is also from Finland, there's something special going on with that country 😉
isn’t santa claus from finland too?!
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3739
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
It's a double-suspension soft dome just as the midrange. It isn't to "look" like the midrange. It is a design decision from moving what they learned on their midrange. The magnet and the dome fabric material are different. Engineered for a tweeter.
It's also a marketing point - what defines ATC? The brand is defined by it's mid-range drive. It's ATC's USP for decades and kind of overshaddows their general speaker design. Read 90% of recomendations for ATC out there and mention of the mid-range driver is a main part of the recommendation.

So of course, if they can carry over general practices from their mid-range to their in-house designed tweeter, they can then associate that brand recognition to the tweeter.

Does that double suspension make it superior to all other tweeters? Well, there are many many great driver companies out there who have been making great tweeters for decades. If it was of such a great benefit, the double suspension, they would have done it too.

If it is really a problem that needs solving, it would have been recognised as a problem long ago and must have been solved in other ways by other manufacturers.

Driver design is rarely revolutionised today, no matter what one is told by a manufacturer.
There are trade-offs with everything.. what advantages the idea presents will be offset by losses elsewhere. So more likely, what you see here is a matching of trade-offs between the aims of the design of the mid and tweeter.

That doesn't make it better that others. It simply prioritises one aspect. And if that aspect is what ATC lovers love, they will get more of it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
What do you think the result of this is -- the "More predictable behaviour"? It's to dampen third-order harmonic distortion. Lack of distortion in bass results in perceived "tightness." In all forms of mechanical motion of a driver.
Once upon a time you could get the exact same speaker with and without SL woofer. It was noticeable.
That's a question of semantics. What is meant by " more predictable behaviour" and behaviour of what? I meant a more uniform and predictable magnetic field. That can mean linear behaviour over a larger excursion. So within a certain limited excursion differences may be inaudible. Essentially it means it can play louder with fewer distortions. So... you will hear a difference when it's louder, but not when you're not. Therefore the benefit depends on the user.

That was my understanding of it anyway. I had an unofficial tour of the ATC factory once when I bought some large ATCs from a guy who worked there, (he built them for himself). That was what I understood from his explanation of the SL ring (but he built enclosures!) .

When you hear some well designed speakers/monitors using some models of Volt driver for example, you don't think the SL ring is anything particularly special in the wider scheme of things. Partly a matter of taste of course.

I think you'd have to have both SL driver speaker and non-SL driver speaker next to each other and A/B'd pretty quickly for memory not to be distorted by bias. So it depends what you did when you tested them for it to mean anything to others..
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3740
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor noob View Post
Genelec is also from Finland, there's something special going on with that country 😉
Tax breaks? Grants for setting up businesses? Could be anything...
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3741
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
isn’t santa claus from finland too?!
I hate to ruin all your christmasses going forward.... but Finland doesn't exist!
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3742
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 View Post
I hate to ruin all your christmasses going forward.... but Finland doesn't exist!
Old 4th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3743
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
That country and England, France, Germany Denmark, USA, Poland, Serbia, etc., etc.
Zimbabwe makes a hell of monitor too! LOL
Old 5th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3744
Here for the gear
 
Moreisless's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6000 View Post
I did indeed, tested them extensively...Amphions were really great and second choice but preferred the imaging, DSP capabilities (now with Neumann mic and software) and their midrange...plus they're active. Wasn't impressed by PMCs and PSIs as much as I thought I would be. KH 80 DSPs make you work really hard to make it sound right but beautifully mixed music (Steely Dan's Aja, D'Angelo's Black Messiah etc.) sound amazing through them. Sub is really optional, they pack plently of punch...I was shocked since they're only 4". Sound On Sound review is spot on for more details.
Right on! I had the opposite experience with Neumann monitors except mine were the kh120s. They sounded really nice on pretty much everything I threw at them and they measured razor flat compared to other monitors in my room but translation was all over the place. Maybe the kh80s are a vast improvement.
Old 5th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3745
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sax512's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moreisless View Post
Right on! I had the opposite experience with Neumann monitors except mine were the kh120s. They sounded really nice on pretty much everything I threw at them and they measured razor flat compared to other monitors in my room but translation was all over the place. Maybe the kh80s are a vast improvement.
Monitors are not supposed to measure flat. The standard anechoic flat measurement is indicative of a good sound, IF speaker directivity is smooth and IF you're listening in far field, and IF the room is not too bad. The spinorama is more indicative in that regard than the on axis response, for far field.
But for near field speakers a listening position response sloping downward like the target I posted earlier is preferable to a flat one.
This opens up the argument of HOW measurements are done, but to keep it simple flat at the listening position is not a balanced sound.
Old 6th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3746
Here for the gear
 
Moreisless's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sax512 View Post
Monitors are not supposed to measure flat. The standard anechoic flat measurement is indicative of a good sound, IF speaker directivity is smooth and IF you're listening in far field, and IF the room is not too bad. The spinorama is more indicative in that regard than the on axis response, for far field.
But for near field speakers a listening position response sloping downward like the target I posted earlier is preferable to a flat one.
This opens up the argument of HOW measurements are done, but to keep it simple flat at the listening position is not a balanced sound.
You are correct sir. In most cases a downward curve of somewhere between 6-10db is preferable (experts don’t agree on the exact amount. I have since recalibrated my room and placement to reflect this.
That being said, my point still stands that the translation on the kh120s was wacky. To clarify I would say they translated worse than other speakers that had more frequency issues (peaks and nulls) across the spectrum. Too forgiving to make solid mix decisions on.
Old 6th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3747
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lowkey's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yep. As an owner of both KH120s and Amphion One15s I can say that I prefer the sound of the KH120s.
But the One15s are in a way different league when it comes to making correct decisions on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moreisless View Post
You are correct sir. In most cases a downward curve of somewhere between 6-10db is preferable (experts don’t agree on the exact amount. I have since recalibrated my room and placement to reflect this.
That being said, my point still stands that the translation on the kh120s was wacky. To clarify I would say they translated worse than other speakers that had more frequency issues (peaks and nulls) across the spectrum. Too forgiving to make solid mix decisions on.
Old 6th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3748
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The moment where the bell of realisation goes off about just how much more important it is what a speaker makes you do compared to what it "sounds like" is a big moment of change.
Old 6th December 2020 | Show parent
  #3749
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The moment where the bell of realisation goes off about just how much more important it is what a speaker makes you do compared to what it "sounds like" is a big moment of change.
Brilliant - quotable words of wisdom right there.
Old 6th December 2020
  #3750
Gear Addict
 
ABBA's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Karloff70:
Quote:
The moment where the bell of realisation goes off about just how much more important it is what a speaker makes you do compared to what it "sounds like" is a big moment of change.
Wise words indeed. On that note - it would be fun, gratifying and inspirational to have both aspects fully covered.
Amphion + Quested/ATC and a fine wine perhaps...
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