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Old 6th March 2020
  #3481
d_r
Here for the gear
Geithain K-Technology (cardioid bass)

Would be very interested in experiences with the Geithain subs/monitors with cardioid bass radiation. Has anyone e.g. compared the waterfall diagrams in the same room with Geithain K and conventional systems?

Regarding the big monitors, the reduction of SBIR problems and thus the flexibility in positioning is certainly a key feature of the K technology, but what about the excitation of the room modes?
Since a conventional sub positioned close to the wall does not have SBIR problems, i wonder if the cardioid bass radiation actually leads to results comparable with additional huge bass traps or tuned absorbers at the front wall (which is not possible sometimes e.g. due to windows in my case).

I also wonder if the K-technology involves compromises regarding group delay, decay behaviour etc.


background:
Against my previous prejudices about 2.1 systems and without the need for a sub (my V2108s go low enough and have enough headroom for the near field) I added a Neumann sub a few months ago for testing purposes and to my surprise the advantages were much bigger and the disadvantages much smaller than expected. Details would be off-topic, so here is the most important point in one sentence: With the sub close to the front wall and the monitors a bit closer to the sweet spot, the position-dependent holes in the frequency response are now outside the frequency range of monitors/sub respectively, which results in a linear bass response without the need of massive EQ correction.
Now I wonder: If I use a sub anyway, I might be able to achieve another advantage with a Geithain Basis Sub and excite the room modes less. My unfortunately relatively small studio room is treated quite well (including 80cm bass traps) and the frequency response in the sweetspot is great, but there is still room for improvement, especially when it comes to decay and a more even distribution in the room between 30-70 Hz...
Old 8th March 2020
  #3482
Please compare the Dynaudio Core 59s if you can. I'd like to know how they stack up against those other big players.
Old 12th March 2020
  #3483
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_r View Post
I also wonder if the [ME-Geithain] K-technology involves compromises regarding group delay, decay behaviour etc.
Everything I have about ME-Geithains K-technology is HERE.

I hope this helps.
Old 13th March 2020
  #3484
d_r
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Everything I have about ME-Geithains K-technology is HERE.

I hope this helps.
Thanks a lot John!

This is certainly a good summary including a very nice comparison of measurements with cardioid/non-cardioid monitors in the same control room although i wish they would have included the waterfall graphs as well and not just the frequency response!

Since you can easily position a conventional sub so close to the wall that there are no phase-inverted reflections i'm still wondering how much the K-technology helps beside the frequency response (which is already linear in the sweet spot with a Neumann sub in my room). I suppose if the main advantage of the K-technology is a linear frequency response due to reduced SBIR effects, then this is especially helpful when using a 2.0 monitor pair where you have much less flexibility with the positioning compared to a 2.1 sub setup...
Old 13th March 2020
  #3485
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwhitney View Post
Please compare the Dynaudio Core 59s if you can. I'd like to know how they stack up against those other big players.
Yessss. Please compare the Dynaudio Core 59.
Old 13th March 2020
  #3486
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_r View Post
Thanks a lot John!

This is certainly a good summary including a very nice comparison of measurements with cardioid/non-cardioid monitors in the same control room although i wish they would have included the waterfall graphs as well and not just the frequency response!

Since you can easily position a conventional sub so close to the wall that there are no phase-inverted reflections i'm still wondering how much the K-technology helps beside the frequency response (which is already linear in the sweet spot with a Neumann sub in my room). I suppose if the main advantage of the K-technology is a linear frequency response due to reduced SBIR effects, then this is especially helpful when using a 2.0 monitor pair where you have much less flexibility with the positioning compared to a 2.1 sub setup...
Yeah, with the speakers being positioned 1m away from the walls, this was likely a best case scenario for cardioid. Simply placing an omni sub in a wall-wall-floor corner results in 1/8th omni, which is a much tighter pattern than cardioid...

Also they averaged (10 as I read it measurements), don't define the smoothing here, and there is no indication how much treatment is in the room...

I find it unlikely that subwoofer directivity would reduce LF decay times, but would be interested to be proven wrong on that.
Old 26th April 2020
  #3487
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
Thank you!

Yes, i guess usefulness is the most important thing here. I need a relatively small monitor for sound design and im torn between these 3: One15, PSIa17m and RL906. I don’t need them to go louder than 85 dBs anyway, so regarding how loud they can go all 3 are good enough. For bass, im satisfied with the range of upto 45-50 hz.
What i need is a precise signal representation in near field monitoring for the money at moderate listening levels. Lowest bass i can check on my headphones.
Hello dotl,

did you choose one of the three mentioned speakers and if so, why did you choose what you choose ?

I´m at the same point, thinking about the RL906 and the One 15.
Not sure, which would be the third speaker to compare, maybe KH 80 or 120 ?

85dB is enough, don´t need more. The only thing for me is, 45-50 Hz is not deep enough, but i´m not willing to sacrifice mids for deeper bass.
For deeper Bass i could check on my Headphones and later i will buy a bass or a second pair of speakers, which will go lower.

I wanna hear the full spectrum of a down-tuned 5 String Bass, so 50Hz is not enough.

But right now, a decision between one 15 and RL906 would be a good starting point

. If i could a afford it and had a decent sized room, i would buy both speakers
Old 26th April 2020
  #3488
Lives for gear
 
dotl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamex View Post
Hello dotl,

did you choose one of the three mentioned speakers and if so, why did you choose what you choose ?

I´m at the same point, thinking about the RL906 and the One 15.
Not sure, which would be the third speaker to compare, maybe KH 80 or 120 ?

85dB is enough, don´t need more. The only thing for me is, 45-50 Hz is not deep enough, but i´m not willing to sacrifice mids for deeper bass.
For deeper Bass i could check on my Headphones and later i will buy a bass or a second pair of speakers, which will go lower.

I wanna hear the full spectrum of a down-tuned 5 String Bass, so 50Hz is not enough.

But right now, a decision between one 15 and RL906 would be a good starting point

. If i could a afford it and had a decent sized room, i would buy both speakers
I haven’t bought or heard any of them. Ive been using the KH120a for some time now and I’m very satisfied with them! Next year I’m planning to build my studio in a bigger room so I’ll probably change the speakers, probably with something like the KH310a, Quested V2108 or smaller but better PSI m17 or I’ll just add a sub like Neumann KH750 dsp.
Old 27th April 2020
  #3489
Here for the gear
 

Hello dotl,

very good for you, you´re a lucky man
I need to check and hear the KH120 again and the KH80, too.

But i would love to hear something different, like the PSI, One 15 and RL 906.
Edit: After reading some tests, the HEDD Speakers are worth a try.
Heared the KH 120 a few times, they are not bad, but a bit " on the boring side". Not sure if they are the right tool for me...


I am willing to spend the money, which means, it has to be the right choice for me, since i want to use it for a long period.

Maybe Audiovisjon can say something about One 15 vs RL 906, since he heared booth Speakers ? Maybe even how they compare to the KH 120 ?
Old 29th April 2020
  #3490
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamex View Post
Hello dotl,

very good for you, you´re a lucky man
I need to check and hear the KH120 again and the KH80, too.

But i would love to hear something different, like the PSI, One 15 and RL 906.
Edit: After reading some tests, the HEDD Speakers are worth a try.
Heared the KH 120 a few times, they are not bad, but a bit " on the boring side". Not sure if they are the right tool for me...


I am willing to spend the money, which means, it has to be the right choice for me, since i want to use it for a long period.

Maybe Audiovisjon can say something about One 15 vs RL 906, since he heared booth Speakers ? Maybe even how they compare to the KH 120 ?
You are not that far from Geithain (I checked the map) - so, when lockdown ends you could pop over and listen to the RL906 in their listening room (or they may even send you a demo pair to trial).
Old 29th April 2020
  #3491
Lives for gear
 
Avantmidi's Avatar
Genelec the ones! Done...
Old 6th May 2020
  #3492
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamex View Post
But right now, a decision between one 15 and RL906 would be a good starting point

If you ever choose the Geithain path, I have a pair of RL906 for sale, PM if interested (I'm in France)
Old 24th August 2020
  #3493
Does anyone here have experience with the Fulcrum RM25ac or RM25 with seperate amp? Or RM28ac maybe?
Very interesting speaker spec wise.
Old 24th August 2020
  #3494
Lives for gear
 
MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by idm0r View Post
Does anyone here have experience with the Fulcrum RM25ac or RM25 with seperate amp? Or RM28ac maybe?
Very interesting speaker spec wise.
yes..we have sold both the powered and upowered versions.
Depending on style of music...and level you like...nothing touches them for price.
That said..studio monitors are not their priority and despite repeated requests...they have no interest in taking it to the next level.
Old 24th August 2020
  #3495
Quote:
Originally Posted by idm0r View Post
Does anyone here have experience with the Fulcrum RM25ac or RM25 with seperate amp? Or RM28ac maybe?
Very interesting speaker spec wise.
I wish! But I do have two of Dave Gunness' other, earlier coax/dsp designs - the Presonus Sceptre S8 and the Presonus Studiolive 315Ai - and they are INCREDIBLY good.

The RM's - or really, anything from Fulcrum - must be utterly, utterly spectacular.
Old 24th August 2020
  #3496
Awesome, thanks for the insights. I'm going to have a listen session in a few weeks. Can't wait The RM25 with separate powersoft amp might be the ones the interior of my studio will be built upon. The only thing I wonder is how they'll operate as near fields (built inside basstraps) because of their shear size. But apparently it should be completely fine from what I've heard from others.
Old 5th September 2020
  #3497
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

I can’t comment on the RL906, but currently own One 15s and KH120s.

Short story: One 15s win by a significant amount.

Long story: I bought the KH120s many years ago, and they replaced a pair of PMC DB1s, that had replaced a pair of Dynaudio BM6s. Each of these speakers was an improvement over the previous ones in terms of being able to make mixing decisions. But each was flawed, making mixing decisions difficult.

The BM6s were too mid recessed. The PMCs too boosted at 120hz because of the transmission line.
The KH120s were clearer through the mids and more even in the bass region and went a bit deeper. But over the years I kept having the same issue- not being able to make decisions in the bass region. The KH120s are also a bit ‘wet’ sounding. Almost as if there is a buss compressor glueing the sounds together. Pretty good for listening pleasure, but not great in bringing out individual elements. Adjusting compressor settings often resulted in no discernible differences.

The One 15s are on a whole new level. They are very dry in the sense that we individual details are easily heard. Changes to compressor release/attack settings are easy to detect and make a decision on. The bass is not as deep or full sounding as the KH120s, but they are much easier to make decisions on. There is more separation between notes and elements down low too. I use an Adam Sub7 for enjoyment while composing, but usually turn it off for making decisions.

Mixing on the One15s is much easier. You just keep fixing things until it FINALLY sounds good. Once it sounds good you’re done. But the disadvantage if you’re also a composer is that most of the time it sounds pants. They definitely let you know your mix sux and when I’m starting songs and just messing around with ideas I have to remind myself that my song doesn’t suck...it’s just the speakers showing everything that needs to be done :/

In the Amphion thread you will find lots of people who also love the sound of the One15s. I don’t experience them that way. It’s more a love hate relationship for me. They are constantly telling me I suck and need to try harder. But when I’m done it’s worth the effort.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynamex View Post
I´m at the same point, thinking about the RL906 and the One 15.
Not sure, which would be the third speaker to compare, maybe KH 80 or 120 ?

:
Old 6th September 2020
  #3498
Gear Maniac
 

I came across these monitors - Bohne Audio BB-8 and BB-10. It's a company from Germany. Looks like it's some pretty high end stuff, I wonder how they sound. Has anyone had a chance to try them?

https://bohne-audio.com/de/aktive-kompaktlautsprecher/
Old 7th September 2020
  #3499
Lives for gear
 
Doc No's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Everything I have about ME-Geithains K-technology is HERE.

I hope this helps.
Link is dead.
Old 9th September 2020
  #3500
Lives for gear
 

THink that the new Genelec 8351B rules !!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3501
Lives for gear
 
dotl's Avatar
 

I guess i also need to move from KH120s but i still don’t know what to buy! The Neumanns are quite good for the money but i never managed to overcome their problematic and undefined low end and somewhat recessed mids and they sound kind of wet, hard to judge reverbs and compression; i was fooling myself, my mixes never translate well enough.

I produce and mix my own music, which is mostly electronic music (not EDM, techno or similar, more experimental, IDM, noise, ambient, quasi symphonic and musique concrete). My current room is 3x4 meters. Loudness of 85 db is good enough for me, no need for PA blastings.

I was thinking about:

PSI a17m
Geithain RL906
Neumann kh310
Amphion One15 + amp
Quested v2108 (used bc too expensive)

Please, brothers and sisters, help me!

P.s. i know I should hear them all in my room but let’s suppose that’s not possible.

Last edited by dotl; 2 weeks ago at 12:47 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3502
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

I had the same problems you describe with my KH120s.
I got One 15s and they are great.
Ive recently been using them with an Adam Sub 7 to add a bit of vibe when composing, but usually switch it off for mixing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
I guess i also need to move from KH120s but i still don’t know what to buy! The Neumanns are quite good for the money but i never managed to overcome their problematic and undefined low end and somewhat recessed mids and they sound kind of wet, hard to judge reverbs and compression; i was fooling myself, my mixes never translate well enough.

I produce and mix my own music, which is mostly electronic music (not EDM, techno or similar, more experimental, IDM, noise, ambient, quasi symphonic and musique concrete). My current room is 3x4 meters. Loudness of 85 db is good enough for me, no needs for PA blastings.

I was thinking about:
Neumann kh310
PSI a17m
Amphion One15
Geithain RL906
Quested v2108 (used bc too expensive)

Pls, brothers and sisters, help me!

P.s. i know! I should hear them in my room. Let’s suppose that’s not possible.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3503
Gear Maniac
 
Bichop's Avatar
Of all these I would choose the PSI A17, they are perfect for electronic music, they have the punch and perfectly marked transients, very precise, when a song sounds bad it is immediately noticeable, however a good production sounds incredible, the 2108 more for music acoustic, soul, hip hop etc, they are softer and more relaxed, more organic
I never heard the Geithain
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3504
Gear Nut
 

Amphions are expensive but very good. Like there’s no speaker. Bm6 I had, nice but a bit mid recessed indeed. Like the Psi’s as well, great speakers especially for electronic music. I have a pair of Sonodyne Srp400 with a sub now. For a small room they are great, very neutral & revealing. Absolutely incredible for the price
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3505
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
I guess i also need to move from KH120s but i still don’t know what to buy! The Neumanns are quite good for the money but i never managed to overcome their problematic and undefined low end and somewhat recessed mids and they sound kind of wet, hard to judge reverbs and compression; i was fooling myself, my mixes never translate well enough.

I produce and mix my own music, which is mostly electronic music (not EDM, techno or similar, more experimental, IDM, noise, ambient, quasi symphonic and musique concrete). My current room is 3x4 meters. Loudness of 85 db is good enough for me, no need for PA blastings.

I was thinking about:

PSI a17m
Geithain RL906
Neumann kh310
Amphion One15 + amp
Quested v2108 (used bc too expensive)

Please, brothers and sisters, help me!

P.s. i know I should hear them all in my room but let’s suppose that’s not possible.
Include the Barefoot FP01s in that evaluation, as well.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3506
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
I guess i also need to move from KH120s but i still don’t know what to buy! The Neumanns are quite good for the money but i never managed to overcome their problematic and undefined low end and somewhat recessed mids and they sound kind of wet, hard to judge reverbs and compression; i was fooling myself, my mixes never translate well enough.

I produce and mix my own music, which is mostly electronic music (not EDM, techno or similar, more experimental, IDM, noise, ambient, quasi symphonic and musique concrete). My current room is 3x4 meters. Loudness of 85 db is good enough for me, no need for PA blastings.

I was thinking about:

PSI a17m
Geithain RL906
Neumann kh310
Amphion One15 + amp
Quested v2108 (used bc too expensive)

Please, brothers and sisters, help me!

P.s. i know I should hear them all in my room but let’s suppose that’s not possible.
I've heard the Neumann KH120 multiple times in well treated rooms and I own and work on Neumann KH310s. Comparing the KH120 to similar sized speakers I completely disagree with your "they sound kind of wet, hard to judge reverbs and compression" statement. In fact I consider the KH120 one of the best offering in the sub $2000/pair market, and for my ears they're extremely dry and very "information rich" as far as reverb tails and compression amount. (Are you sure your room is well treated? ) I've also heard the KH120 with KH750 sub and it sounds ridiculously similar to my KH310.
So my main point is: if you're not a fan of the KH120 sound, you're most probably not going to like the KH310 sound neither. Yes, they are completely different boxes, one being a sealed three way, while the other is a ported two way and yes, the KH310 has got way more extended bass response. But their signature Neumann sound characteristic (which is dry, extremely neutral, some reviewers even call it dull/uninspiring/boring) is the same. Even though in my opinion below $5000 nothing I've ever heard beats the KH310 (for mixing), most probably you're not going to like it too much.
My 2 cents
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3507
Lives for gear
 
dotl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozonepaul View Post
(Are you sure your room is well treated? )
I admit, it could be better
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3508
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
I guess i also need to move from KH120s but i still don’t know what to buy! The Neumanns are quite good for the money but i never managed to overcome their problematic and undefined low end and somewhat recessed mids and they sound kind of wet, hard to judge reverbs and compression; i was fooling myself, my mixes never translate well enough.

I produce and mix my own music, which is mostly electronic music (not EDM, techno or similar, more experimental, IDM, noise, ambient, quasi symphonic and musique concrete). My current room is 3x4 meters. Loudness of 85 db is good enough for me, no need for PA blastings.

I was thinking about:

PSI a17m
Geithain RL906
Neumann kh310
Amphion One15 + amp
Quested v2108 (used bc too expensive)

Please, brothers and sisters, help me!

P.s. i know I should hear them all in my room but let’s suppose that’s not possible.
I'm sitting here mixing with a pair of KH120s and Amphion One15s side by side right now. I purchased both with the intention of keeping one and sending the other back. I'm in the process of making the (massive) upgrade from longterm Mackie HR824 mk1 use. I don't know if you've spent any time in the lengthy Amphion thread, but I'm finding everything that was said about the one 15s to be true. They are truly exceptional and the mix translation is exceeding my expectations, which were already high. I've remixed 4 songs already and the A/B comparison is that of mud vs clarity.

The Amphions arrived a week before the KH120s. When Neumanns got here I set them up and I do like them, but it's definitely a weird transition from one to the other. I would never use them in conjunction with each other. In some ways they actually sound *better* than the one 15s...at least that's the opinion of my family when switching speakers. But I think they're just reacting to the increased level of bass. But for mixing, the Amphions are where it's at. I did do one mix of the same material on each and again, the 120 mix was mud in comparison.

To be honest, I'm not really even gonna give them their fair shake. I could mix a full song and really try my best, but I just don't feel inspired to spend 6 hours or so on that quest with the KH120s. The amphions are just joy to be on in comparison.

Now I may end up keeping them as they're way better than my mackies and I still need something to turn up for tracking and getting people excited. I do think the amphions would be problematic as your only tracking speaker if working with clients (you've said you're not) as on a superficial level, they're unimpressive. But as soon as you enter and acclimate to their world, they are not that at all.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3509
Lives for gear
 
lowkey's Avatar
 

I still own my KH120s even though I have switched over to the One 15s in the studio.

I agree that the KH120s sound “better”. I use them as my hifi playback system now where I think they are better than for studio use.

I also agree with the post above that they sound wet. They certainly aren’t dry sounding to me. Especially next to the One15s which are super dry...but nowhere near as ‘nice’ sounding for hifi playback as the KH120s. To me the KH130s sound like there is a bit of master bus compression slightly glueing the elements together. Whereas the One15 presents elements as more separate:- easier to mix with but imo quite unenjoyable to listen to

Running a Naim UnitiQute2 streamer/amp into the KH120s is a really punchy little hifi system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zwolf View Post
I'm sitting here mixing with a pair of KH120s and Amphion One15s side by side right now. I purchased both with the intention of keeping one and sending the other back. I'm in the process of making the (massive) upgrade from longterm Mackie HR824 mk1 use. I don't know if you've spent any time in the lengthy Amphion thread, but I'm finding everything that was said about the one 15s to be true. They are truly exceptional and the mix translation is exceeding my expectations, which were already high. I've remixed 4 songs already and the A/B comparison is that of mud vs clarity.

The Amphions arrived a week before the KH120s. When Neumanns got here I set them up and I do like them, but it's definitely a weird transition from one to the other. I would never use them in conjunction with each other. In some ways they actually sound *better* than the one 15s...at least that's the opinion of my family when switching speakers. But I think they're just reacting to the increased level of bass. But for mixing, the Amphions are where it's at. I did do one mix of the same material on each and again, the 120 mix was mud in comparison.

To be honest, I'm not really even gonna give them their fair shake. I could mix a full song and really try my best, but I just don't feel inspired to spend 6 hours or so on that quest with the KH120s. The amphions are just joy to be on in comparison.

Now I may end up keeping them as they're way better than my mackies and I still need something to turn up for tracking and getting people excited. I do think the amphions would be problematic as your only tracking speaker if working with clients (you've said you're not) as on a superficial level, they're unimpressive. But as soon as you enter and acclimate to their world, they are not that at all.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3510
Gear Head
 
Vinnie-1's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
I was thinking about:

PSI a17m
Geithain RL906
Neumann kh310
Amphion One15 + amp
Quested v2108 (used bc too expensive)

Please, brothers and sisters, help me!

P.s. i know I should hear them all in my room but let’s suppose that’s not possible.

From your list I tried not PSI a17 but the 21's, Quested V2108 and KH310 together.

Went with Neumann after some turmoil in the end because they had a decent reaching low end in my room and they just worked well for me, Quested had a more kind of raw earthy sound to them and bigger but cloudier and looser image, but I did like them for how different they were to the 310's making a totally contrasting view point, these also serve as a good saver in the winter for central heating bills, PSI had tighter faster transients with good imaging, but at the time I thought they sounded almost to good on material I didn't think was all that, so put me off a smidge (just wasn't picking up the contrast as much in the weeks I had them), but oddly I sometimes have that feeling with the KH310's as well now when flicking through other sets on some material hehe.

Possibly would of been good with any of them after a long learning, PSI didn't have the low end of the KH310 which I needed (I could of just got a sub, but didn't want to at that time), 310's have a kind of smoothing thing to them with a slightly rounded sub region reaching the low 30's, they not transient kings or pin point imagers but they are balanced and easy to work on, seem to measure well in different rooms where as you might not have as much luck with the Quested in this department, a solid bargain IMO.

This was about 7 years ago when all these monitors in the UK weren't too far off from each other in price, still have a pair of KH310 with some other monitors.

Liked different things about all of them, at the time there could be only one.

Like you say if your not keen on the Neumann 120's then go for a change, simple as that, go with your gut and move on.

Good luck on your monitor mission
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