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High end nearfield test Studio Monitors
Old 30th March 2019
  #3391
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Yes they're all wrong. Inherently.
A HRTF is no a low q bump or something like that. It's a spiky thing and it's very specific for each individual. Your personal HRTF won't work well for me for instance.
On top of that headphone drivers have serious cone breakup all over the treble. This cone breakup you can't correct for it's hi-Q and it moves with temperature / while in use. And then there's the missing bass thing with headphones as we're used to feeling bass in addition to hearing it. Etc etc.
Headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room no matter what you do to try to get it right and no matter how much you spend. (btw I've owned both headphones you linked to and did informed EQ-ing on both also based on rtings.com measurements and many others. It's a waste of time in the end.)
Ok so all their test are wrong, and they are doing all the work for no reason, so they should just know it, and close this website. Thank you for your answer.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3392
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
Ok so all their test are wrong, and they are doing all the work for no reason, so they should just know it, and close this website. Thank you for your answer.
Ok.. Thanks for wasting my time replying to your previous message..
Old 31st March 2019
  #3393
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Ok.. Thanks for wasting my time replying to your previous message..
I got my answer, so i don't know for your time waisted, i feel sorry for you.

All headphones are useless at any price, and you tried all the best, no matter what you do, what you pay for, they are all useless.

Now i will sell my headphone and focus only on monitor. And i will tell them to delete their website, because all of what they are doing is wrong.


Thank you very much.

Please, send me your website or your tests, so i can show them how to do it properly.

Thank you for your time.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3394
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
I got my answer, so i don't know for your time waisted, i feel sorry for you.

All headphones are useless at any price, and you tried all the best, no matter what you do, what you pay for, they are all useless.

Now i will sell my headphone and focus only on monitor. And i will tell them to delete their website, because all of what they are doing is wrong.


Thank you very much.

Please, send me your website or your tests, so i can show them how to do it properly.

Thank you for your time.
None of those things are words I said.
I said headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room.
And the reason for this is that headphones have specific issues which currently one can't really overcome.

I never said headphones are useless. Nor did I say the headphone tests provided on certain websites are useless.
You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never said / are twisting my words in order to ridicule or something like that, the information and experience I shared. Probably because you either completely missed the point of what I was saying and/or you don't like the implications of what I said or for whatever other reason.

I'm not going to reply any further to your very negative, unrealistic and unproductive way of communication.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3395
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Now headphones have terrible terrible trebble compared to a dedicated tweeter. Period. And they have compared to studio monitors a bloated bass with much harmonic distortion (though good in certain ways because there is no room to mess up the bass further) and their trebble is just not even close to the quality of the very cheapest studio monitors (but again, no room to mess it up further either).
I'm sorry but this simply is not true. The treble in really good quality headphones is vastly superior to the cheapest studio monitors, you have to spend much more money to get treble in monitors that matches or betters the best headphones. Also as a whole headphones distortion levels are an order of magnitude lower than speakers across the entire frequency range, thats just a fact.

I love using high end monitors and would recommend everyone use them over headphones most of the time (in a properly treated room), but what you're saying is just not true.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3396
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
None of those things are words I said.
I said headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room.
And the reason for this is that headphones have specific issues which currently one can't really overcome.

I never said headphones are useless. Nor did I say the headphone tests provided on certain websites are useless.
You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never said / are twisting my words in order to ridicule or something like that, the information and experience I shared. Probably because you either completely missed the point of what I was saying and/or you don't like the implications of what I said or for whatever other reason.

I'm not going to reply any further to your very negative, unrealistic and unproductive way of communication.
Ok lets try a more productive way, if you may please.

Why their test are close to what people think, their experience ?

For example most people say that the hd800 is bright, has good soundstage, imaging.

Also they say things for other headphone and most of them are close to the result of the test.

So may you please tell me if i can buy a hd800 and also be happy regarging what the test says ?

I want to save money to get the best speaker later so i was thinking why not getting one of the best headphone so i can mix with them and my really low end speakers. I get the low frequency from headphone etc.

But now after your answer i don't know what to do... should i go for a low /middle range studio monitor before then save money ?

BTW i was going to sell my denon ah-d2000 for the hd800
Old 31st March 2019
  #3397
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
Ok lets try a more productive way, if you may please.

Why their test are close to what people think, their experience ?

For example most people say that the hd800 is bright, has good soundstage, imaging.

Also they say things for other headphone and most of them are close to the result of the test.

So may you please tell me if i can buy a hd800 and also be happy regarging what the test says ?

I want to save money to get the best speaker later so i was thinking why not getting one of the best headphone so i can mix with them and my really low end speakers. I get the low frequency from headphone etc.

But now after your answer i don't know what to do... should i go for a low /middle range studio monitor before then save money ?

BTW i was going to sell my denon ah-d2000 for the hd800
Ah maybe I didn't interpret your posts the right way, I thought you were only being sarcastic.

I would not put too much hope in the HD800. I personally don't think it's worth the money.
I think if you set up studio monitors costing less than half what the HD800 costs, in a proper way the end result is better.
If you have a small room you may have to add a lot of absorption (which is cheap if you do it yourself) before you get proper acoustics.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
I'm sorry but this simply is not true. The treble in really good quality headphones is vastly superior to the cheapest studio monitors, you have to spend much more money to get treble in monitors that matches or betters the best headphones. Also as a whole headphones distortion levels are an order of magnitude lower than speakers across the entire frequency range, thats just a fact.

I love using high end monitors and would recommend everyone use them over headphones most of the time (in a properly treated room), but what you're saying is just not true.
I don't know where you get that idea.
Cone breakup in headphone drivers is severe. There are no tweeters on even cheap studio monitors which have cone breakup anywhere near that bad. (you'd have to look at full range drivers for a similar picture, and you don't see full range drivers in studio monitors for that very reason)
Look at unsmoothed measurements of both. The picture is quite clear. (It would also be clear if you understood how drivers work in practice.)
Btw, don't confuse baffle edge diffraction of monitors with unrounded edges as cone breakup. Baffle edge diffraction is not a good thing but not nearly as bad a thing as cone breakup.

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers. For this you need to look at the higher harmonic distortion products and I never see this posted for headphones. The 2nd harmonic for instance isn't so bad, the 5th harmonic is very bad and much more audible. Speaker drivers can have very low higher harmonics, less than 0.01% (less than -80dB). I don't know how this is for headphones. But this is not the most interesting point as linear distortion due to cone breakup is by far the most audible thing. And also more audible than harmonic distortion is intermodulation distortion which is also far worse for headphones VS multi-way speakers.

But perhaps take this discussion to a new thread.
I responded long ago somewhat on-topic I think, but furthering this discussion here is probably not appreciated.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3399
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
I don't know where you get that idea.
Cone breakup in headphone drivers is severe. There are no tweeters on even cheap studio monitors which have cone breakup anywhere near that bad. (you'd have to look at full range drivers for a similar picture, and you don't see full range drivers in studio monitors for that very reason)
Look at unsmoothed measurements of both. The picture is quite clear. (It would also be clear if you understood how drivers work in practice.)
Btw, don't confuse baffle edge diffraction of monitors with unrounded edges as cone breakup. Baffle edge diffraction is not a good thing but not nearly as bad a thing as cone breakup.

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers. For this you need to look at the higher harmonic distortion products and I never see this posted for headphones. The 2nd harmonic for instance isn't so bad, the 5th harmonic is very bad and much more audible. Speaker drivers can have very low higher harmonics, less than 0.01% (less than -80dB). I don't know how this is for headphones. But this is not the most interesting point as linear distortion due to cone breakup is by far the most audible thing. And also more audible than harmonic distortion is intermodulation distortion which is also far worse for headphones VS multi-way speakers.

But perhaps take this discussion to a new thread.
I responded long ago somewhat on-topic I think, but furthering this discussion here is probably not appreciated.
And yet despite all this Grammy winning mixers like Andrew Schepps have mixed entire records solely on headphones. He mixed the Low Roar album on his Sony mdr-7506.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3400
OMU
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Poor guy, somebody tell him. And also call Schick right away to if on it!
Old 31st March 2019
  #3401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers.
That much is very clear but the measured results don't lie, TOTAL harmonic distortion across the entire frequency range is way way lower on headphones than all but the most high end of speakers. Sure if you were to try and drive headphones as loud as a pair of speakers trying to listen to them 1m away then yes, severe breakup, the speaker would win no contest. But its precisely because the ear is directly next to the driver with headphones that they don't have to be driven anywhere near as hard as a speaker cone.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3402
Gear Maniac
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
That much is very clear but the measured results don't lie, TOTAL harmonic distortion across the entire frequency range is way way lower on headphones than all but the most high end of speakers. Sure if you were to try and drive headphones as loud as a pair of speakers trying to listen to them 1m away then yes, severe breakup, the speaker would win no contest. But its precisely because the ear is directly next to the driver with headphones that they don't have to be driven anywhere near as hard as a speaker cone.
Yes well what I meant is that THD does not give you the information regarding the nature and audibility of the distortion.
You can have -50dB second harmonic with the higher harmonics below -90dB even. Or you can have a driver with -60dB second harmonic but many of the higher harmonics at around the same level. Both will give a similar THD reading yet their audible distortion is different.
But as I said, harmonic distortion is not the problem with headphones. It is linear distortion, both due to serious cone breakup and in a way due to no natural HRTF. These are the biggest problems of headphones. And if you want to talk about non-linear distortion of headphones then one should talk about IMD.
But again, please start a different thread for this discussion. I don't feel comfortable replying in this thread anymore as this is way off topic and therefore rude to others in this thread.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3403
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
But again, please start a different thread for this discussion. I don't feel comfortable replying in this thread anymore as this is way off topic and therefore rude to others in this thread.
I am trying to create a new topic with all the quote, but i am not good for quoting, anyone could create one, if you know how to do it, i really want to know more about it.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3404
Lives for gear
 

Seinheiser hd600 seems to sound cool for their price.
Also heard a lot about those Focal headphones.
What do you guys think ?

Sergio
Old 31st March 2019
  #3405
Gear Maniac
 
syncussion's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
I am trying to create a new topic with all the quote, but i am not good for quoting, anyone could create one, if you know how to do it, i really want to know more about it.
Made a new thread for the discussion of headphones vs monitors here:
Headphones vs monitors
Old 1st April 2019
  #3406
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Made a new thread for the discussion of headphones vs monitors here:
Headphones vs monitors
Awesome !
Old 4th April 2019
  #3407
Gear Addict
 

While I much prefer mixing on my Spiral Groove Studio Ones to my HD800, I've been doing a lot of spatial audio recording and mixing for VR / 360, 99% consumed on headphones, so I have to mix on headphones most of the time. I don't agree with one of the previous posts saying the HD800s are bloated in the bass range - I think they're a touch light on bass if anything. Also, while I was completely skeptical of the Sonarworks plugin, and resisted using it despite other people in my field using it, I went back and have been running a demo for the past week. I don't know if the previous poster was using an old version or something, but I don't see how he can claim Sonarworks makes the hd800s sound worse. I've been listening to hundreds of tracks from every genre, and there isn't a single mix that sounds better with Sonarworks off. Once your ears adjust, it's not even close...it brings them much more in line with a neutral speaker, and while they don't have the clarity or transient response of the Studio Ones (better w/ the linear phase option for sure though), I feel like I could do a pretty solid mix on the hd800 with Sonarworks alone.
Old 4th April 2019
  #3408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
And yet despite all this Grammy winning mixers like Andrew Schepps have mixed entire records solely on headphones. He mixed the Low Roar album on his Sony mdr-7506.
Yeah, but he's probably a lot less anal retentive than many on this thread, and he's very talented to boot.
Old 5th April 2019
  #3409
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonwerker View Post
O310.... Nearfield???
Sure nearfield! I use them as nearfields and they are great!
Topic:
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