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High end nearfield test
Old 30th March 2019
  #3391
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Yes they're all wrong. Inherently.
A HRTF is no a low q bump or something like that. It's a spiky thing and it's very specific for each individual. Your personal HRTF won't work well for me for instance.
On top of that headphone drivers have serious cone breakup all over the treble. This cone breakup you can't correct for it's hi-Q and it moves with temperature / while in use. And then there's the missing bass thing with headphones as we're used to feeling bass in addition to hearing it. Etc etc.
Headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room no matter what you do to try to get it right and no matter how much you spend. (btw I've owned both headphones you linked to and did informed EQ-ing on both also based on rtings.com measurements and many others. It's a waste of time in the end.)
Ok so all their test are wrong, and they are doing all the work for no reason, so they should just know it, and close this website. Thank you for your answer.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
Ok so all their test are wrong, and they are doing all the work for no reason, so they should just know it, and close this website. Thank you for your answer.
Ok.. Thanks for wasting my time replying to your previous message..
Old 31st March 2019
  #3393
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Ok.. Thanks for wasting my time replying to your previous message..
I got my answer, so i don't know for your time waisted, i feel sorry for you.

All headphones are useless at any price, and you tried all the best, no matter what you do, what you pay for, they are all useless.

Now i will sell my headphone and focus only on monitor. And i will tell them to delete their website, because all of what they are doing is wrong.


Thank you very much.

Please, send me your website or your tests, so i can show them how to do it properly.

Thank you for your time.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
I got my answer, so i don't know for your time waisted, i feel sorry for you.

All headphones are useless at any price, and you tried all the best, no matter what you do, what you pay for, they are all useless.

Now i will sell my headphone and focus only on monitor. And i will tell them to delete their website, because all of what they are doing is wrong.


Thank you very much.

Please, send me your website or your tests, so i can show them how to do it properly.

Thank you for your time.
None of those things are words I said.
I said headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room.
And the reason for this is that headphones have specific issues which currently one can't really overcome.

I never said headphones are useless. Nor did I say the headphone tests provided on certain websites are useless.
You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never said / are twisting my words in order to ridicule or something like that, the information and experience I shared. Probably because you either completely missed the point of what I was saying and/or you don't like the implications of what I said or for whatever other reason.

I'm not going to reply any further to your very negative, unrealistic and unproductive way of communication.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Now headphones have terrible terrible trebble compared to a dedicated tweeter. Period. And they have compared to studio monitors a bloated bass with much harmonic distortion (though good in certain ways because there is no room to mess up the bass further) and their trebble is just not even close to the quality of the very cheapest studio monitors (but again, no room to mess it up further either).
I'm sorry but this simply is not true. The treble in really good quality headphones is vastly superior to the cheapest studio monitors, you have to spend much more money to get treble in monitors that matches or betters the best headphones. Also as a whole headphones distortion levels are an order of magnitude lower than speakers across the entire frequency range, thats just a fact.

I love using high end monitors and would recommend everyone use them over headphones most of the time (in a properly treated room), but what you're saying is just not true.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3396
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
None of those things are words I said.
I said headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room.
And the reason for this is that headphones have specific issues which currently one can't really overcome.

I never said headphones are useless. Nor did I say the headphone tests provided on certain websites are useless.
You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never said / are twisting my words in order to ridicule or something like that, the information and experience I shared. Probably because you either completely missed the point of what I was saying and/or you don't like the implications of what I said or for whatever other reason.

I'm not going to reply any further to your very negative, unrealistic and unproductive way of communication.
Ok lets try a more productive way, if you may please.

Why their test are close to what people think, their experience ?

For example most people say that the hd800 is bright, has good soundstage, imaging.

Also they say things for other headphone and most of them are close to the result of the test.

So may you please tell me if i can buy a hd800 and also be happy regarging what the test says ?

I want to save money to get the best speaker later so i was thinking why not getting one of the best headphone so i can mix with them and my really low end speakers. I get the low frequency from headphone etc.

But now after your answer i don't know what to do... should i go for a low /middle range studio monitor before then save money ?

BTW i was going to sell my denon ah-d2000 for the hd800
Old 31st March 2019
  #3397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
Ok lets try a more productive way, if you may please.

Why their test are close to what people think, their experience ?

For example most people say that the hd800 is bright, has good soundstage, imaging.

Also they say things for other headphone and most of them are close to the result of the test.

So may you please tell me if i can buy a hd800 and also be happy regarging what the test says ?

I want to save money to get the best speaker later so i was thinking why not getting one of the best headphone so i can mix with them and my really low end speakers. I get the low frequency from headphone etc.

But now after your answer i don't know what to do... should i go for a low /middle range studio monitor before then save money ?

BTW i was going to sell my denon ah-d2000 for the hd800
Ah maybe I didn't interpret your posts the right way, I thought you were only being sarcastic.

I would not put too much hope in the HD800. I personally don't think it's worth the money.
I think if you set up studio monitors costing less than half what the HD800 costs, in a proper way the end result is better.
If you have a small room you may have to add a lot of absorption (which is cheap if you do it yourself) before you get proper acoustics.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
I'm sorry but this simply is not true. The treble in really good quality headphones is vastly superior to the cheapest studio monitors, you have to spend much more money to get treble in monitors that matches or betters the best headphones. Also as a whole headphones distortion levels are an order of magnitude lower than speakers across the entire frequency range, thats just a fact.

I love using high end monitors and would recommend everyone use them over headphones most of the time (in a properly treated room), but what you're saying is just not true.
I don't know where you get that idea.
Cone breakup in headphone drivers is severe. There are no tweeters on even cheap studio monitors which have cone breakup anywhere near that bad. (you'd have to look at full range drivers for a similar picture, and you don't see full range drivers in studio monitors for that very reason)
Look at unsmoothed measurements of both. The picture is quite clear. (It would also be clear if you understood how drivers work in practice.)
Btw, don't confuse baffle edge diffraction of monitors with unrounded edges as cone breakup. Baffle edge diffraction is not a good thing but not nearly as bad a thing as cone breakup.

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers. For this you need to look at the higher harmonic distortion products and I never see this posted for headphones. The 2nd harmonic for instance isn't so bad, the 5th harmonic is very bad and much more audible. Speaker drivers can have very low higher harmonics, less than 0.01% (less than -80dB). I don't know how this is for headphones. But this is not the most interesting point as linear distortion due to cone breakup is by far the most audible thing. And also more audible than harmonic distortion is intermodulation distortion which is also far worse for headphones VS multi-way speakers.

But perhaps take this discussion to a new thread.
I responded long ago somewhat on-topic I think, but furthering this discussion here is probably not appreciated.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
I don't know where you get that idea.
Cone breakup in headphone drivers is severe. There are no tweeters on even cheap studio monitors which have cone breakup anywhere near that bad. (you'd have to look at full range drivers for a similar picture, and you don't see full range drivers in studio monitors for that very reason)
Look at unsmoothed measurements of both. The picture is quite clear. (It would also be clear if you understood how drivers work in practice.)
Btw, don't confuse baffle edge diffraction of monitors with unrounded edges as cone breakup. Baffle edge diffraction is not a good thing but not nearly as bad a thing as cone breakup.

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers. For this you need to look at the higher harmonic distortion products and I never see this posted for headphones. The 2nd harmonic for instance isn't so bad, the 5th harmonic is very bad and much more audible. Speaker drivers can have very low higher harmonics, less than 0.01% (less than -80dB). I don't know how this is for headphones. But this is not the most interesting point as linear distortion due to cone breakup is by far the most audible thing. And also more audible than harmonic distortion is intermodulation distortion which is also far worse for headphones VS multi-way speakers.

But perhaps take this discussion to a new thread.
I responded long ago somewhat on-topic I think, but furthering this discussion here is probably not appreciated.
And yet despite all this Grammy winning mixers like Andrew Schepps have mixed entire records solely on headphones. He mixed the Low Roar album on his Sony mdr-7506.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3400
OMU
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Poor guy, somebody tell him. And also call Schick right away to if on it!
Old 31st March 2019
  #3401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers.
That much is very clear but the measured results don't lie, TOTAL harmonic distortion across the entire frequency range is way way lower on headphones than all but the most high end of speakers. Sure if you were to try and drive headphones as loud as a pair of speakers trying to listen to them 1m away then yes, severe breakup, the speaker would win no contest. But its precisely because the ear is directly next to the driver with headphones that they don't have to be driven anywhere near as hard as a speaker cone.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
That much is very clear but the measured results don't lie, TOTAL harmonic distortion across the entire frequency range is way way lower on headphones than all but the most high end of speakers. Sure if you were to try and drive headphones as loud as a pair of speakers trying to listen to them 1m away then yes, severe breakup, the speaker would win no contest. But its precisely because the ear is directly next to the driver with headphones that they don't have to be driven anywhere near as hard as a speaker cone.
Yes well what I meant is that THD does not give you the information regarding the nature and audibility of the distortion.
You can have -50dB second harmonic with the higher harmonics below -90dB even. Or you can have a driver with -60dB second harmonic but many of the higher harmonics at around the same level. Both will give a similar THD reading yet their audible distortion is different.
But as I said, harmonic distortion is not the problem with headphones. It is linear distortion, both due to serious cone breakup and in a way due to no natural HRTF. These are the biggest problems of headphones. And if you want to talk about non-linear distortion of headphones then one should talk about IMD.
But again, please start a different thread for this discussion. I don't feel comfortable replying in this thread anymore as this is way off topic and therefore rude to others in this thread.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3403
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
But again, please start a different thread for this discussion. I don't feel comfortable replying in this thread anymore as this is way off topic and therefore rude to others in this thread.
I am trying to create a new topic with all the quote, but i am not good for quoting, anyone could create one, if you know how to do it, i really want to know more about it.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3404
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Seinheiser hd600 seems to sound cool for their price.
Also heard a lot about those Focal headphones.
What do you guys think ?

Sergio
Old 31st March 2019
  #3405
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syncussion's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
I am trying to create a new topic with all the quote, but i am not good for quoting, anyone could create one, if you know how to do it, i really want to know more about it.
Made a new thread for the discussion of headphones vs monitors here:
Headphones vs monitors
Old 1st April 2019
  #3406
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Made a new thread for the discussion of headphones vs monitors here:
Headphones vs monitors
Awesome !
Old 4th April 2019
  #3407
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While I much prefer mixing on my Spiral Groove Studio Ones to my HD800, I've been doing a lot of spatial audio recording and mixing for VR / 360, 99% consumed on headphones, so I have to mix on headphones most of the time. I don't agree with one of the previous posts saying the HD800s are bloated in the bass range - I think they're a touch light on bass if anything. Also, while I was completely skeptical of the Sonarworks plugin, and resisted using it despite other people in my field using it, I went back and have been running a demo for the past week. I don't know if the previous poster was using an old version or something, but I don't see how he can claim Sonarworks makes the hd800s sound worse. I've been listening to hundreds of tracks from every genre, and there isn't a single mix that sounds better with Sonarworks off. Once your ears adjust, it's not even close...it brings them much more in line with a neutral speaker, and while they don't have the clarity or transient response of the Studio Ones (better w/ the linear phase option for sure though), I feel like I could do a pretty solid mix on the hd800 with Sonarworks alone.
Old 4th April 2019
  #3408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
And yet despite all this Grammy winning mixers like Andrew Schepps have mixed entire records solely on headphones. He mixed the Low Roar album on his Sony mdr-7506.
Yeah, but he's probably a lot less anal retentive than many on this thread, and he's very talented to boot.
Old 5th April 2019
  #3409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonwerker View Post
O310.... Nearfield???
Sure nearfield! I use them as nearfields and they are great!
Old 7th June 2019
  #3410
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Bichop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
They both have pros and cons just by design (haven't heard either personally).
Aphions are passive, not flat in the bass (made for half space like many home hifi speakers). But uses fairly good Seas drivers. Don't measure as well as some other speakers distortion wise especially right below the crossover because of the aluminium woofer / 2-way design. But the good points are fairly good phase around the crossover due to the recessed treble in the waveguide and low crossover freq, fairly even radiation pattern due to waveguide and fairly focussed treble and lower treble also due to the waveguide which is good in less than perfectly treated rooms and also reduces edge diffraction which would be pretty bad otherwise for such a rectangular box.
Quested v2108 is active which generally means a better crossover filter and better control of the amps of the individual drivers. But it is quite a thing for an 8 inch driver to make it all the way to the treble in a two way, even if the tweeter is taken to 1.4kHz. And even though the tweeter is bigger than normal it seems to me it must still be stressed somewhat and I'm not sure which tweeter it is (Wavecor?) but probably has less than ideal harmonic distortion levels. The woofer also probably is not as tight as the Amphion Seas woofer. Seems like a design that doesn't give an overly detailed sound / not very critical listening which you may prefer.
Though I'm of the opinion that if your front end is in order and your room and placement is top notch that you won't easily be bothered by a speaker which gives a lot of information. It's usually when there are nasty direct reflections from walls, ceiling/floor and/or desk in the mids or treble, or when there are cancellations due to direct reflections or modes in the bass, that's when the sound gets out of balance and you can easily get unacceptable/unmusical results.
Seems to me that the A17 you already have is a great speaker overall (even with the high crossover), if it is indeed marginally too critical sounding (can't imagine it being more than this) by design, then a small EQ curve /tilt to warm it up should fix it. If this doesn't fix it then there's probably a room /reflection problem in my experience.

One other thing, for what it's worth. These days you can build a speaker better than anything available for sale commercially for less money, if you're willing to put in some time and effort.
For instance BlieSMa T34A-4 tweeter 1.3kHz crossover. Seas W18EX001 mid-woofer. Build in closed dead box with stuffing. And for instance Seas L26ROY for subs/bass in another box, closed or ported or passive resonator whatever you want. Amp it all with a Hypex Fusion amp which also handles all the crossover functions / DSP which also makes the drivers time aligned / in perfect phase on a flat baffle. Measure and set it all up exactly as you wish with a cheap calibrated measurement mic.
Will be cheaper than high end monitors and will beat them all in soundquality. Future has already arrived for diy. And if you have a big enough room stuff it full with 25cm or thicker absorption, whole walls and ceiling (I'm personally doing even the floor) not just tiny 10cm thick panels here and there. And make an acoustically transparant desk and mix on a computer instead of a big mixing desk reflection horror right in front of you. And you'll have as high end a studio as it gets and full control over how it sounds.

Well, I have been using Sonarworks for 2 years, after making the measurements, it corrects 6 db in 150 hz, I think it is logical for the desktop, and 3 db maximum in other places, but the zone from 2.5 to 4kz does not need correction, nevertheless that's where it bothers me to listen to the PSI.
When I had Antelope Pure 2 it was unbearable, because I think they are pronounced in that area, with the change to Prism sound Lyra 2 everything has improved a lot, but I still have too much information in those frequencies
PSI are incredible, that I have clear, and I recommend, everything translates very well, but I need something more quiet in that area because of my slight hyperacusis and since there is change, which has more extension at low frequencies.
The V2108 I think is the ideal for me, I hope not to be wrong.
I will put my A17s on sale, but it is only for this reason, they are impressive monitors
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3411
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstian_DE View Post
no trickery at all. pretty simple designs and they don't make secrets out of it. the founder is a nice guy and willingly explains his designs. the speakers have their color. but that is more dud to the chassis used and not the design itself. not too natural but still very capable working tools. which mostly relies on their amplifier which is really first class super controlling and not colouring at all. tested the abacus amp with the amphions and that was a pretty good match. probably the best possible match for them. their APC indeed has the proclaimed bandwidth and phase accuracy and is pretty impressive. the design is not secret either. but it is not working too well in a control room for it is very sensitive to placement and furniture or Mixing desks in its way.
It's been a while but would you say the Abacus Amp (which one actually?) is a better match than the Amp100? Have you compared them?
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