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High end nearfield test
Old 30th March 2019
  #3391
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Yes they're all wrong. Inherently.
A HRTF is no a low q bump or something like that. It's a spiky thing and it's very specific for each individual. Your personal HRTF won't work well for me for instance.
On top of that headphone drivers have serious cone breakup all over the treble. This cone breakup you can't correct for it's hi-Q and it moves with temperature / while in use. And then there's the missing bass thing with headphones as we're used to feeling bass in addition to hearing it. Etc etc.
Headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room no matter what you do to try to get it right and no matter how much you spend. (btw I've owned both headphones you linked to and did informed EQ-ing on both also based on rtings.com measurements and many others. It's a waste of time in the end.)
Ok so all their test are wrong, and they are doing all the work for no reason, so they should just know it, and close this website. Thank you for your answer.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
Ok so all their test are wrong, and they are doing all the work for no reason, so they should just know it, and close this website. Thank you for your answer.
Ok.. Thanks for wasting my time replying to your previous message..
Old 31st March 2019
  #3393
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Ok.. Thanks for wasting my time replying to your previous message..
I got my answer, so i don't know for your time waisted, i feel sorry for you.

All headphones are useless at any price, and you tried all the best, no matter what you do, what you pay for, they are all useless.

Now i will sell my headphone and focus only on monitor. And i will tell them to delete their website, because all of what they are doing is wrong.


Thank you very much.

Please, send me your website or your tests, so i can show them how to do it properly.

Thank you for your time.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
I got my answer, so i don't know for your time waisted, i feel sorry for you.

All headphones are useless at any price, and you tried all the best, no matter what you do, what you pay for, they are all useless.

Now i will sell my headphone and focus only on monitor. And i will tell them to delete their website, because all of what they are doing is wrong.


Thank you very much.

Please, send me your website or your tests, so i can show them how to do it properly.

Thank you for your time.
None of those things are words I said.
I said headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room.
And the reason for this is that headphones have specific issues which currently one can't really overcome.

I never said headphones are useless. Nor did I say the headphone tests provided on certain websites are useless.
You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never said / are twisting my words in order to ridicule or something like that, the information and experience I shared. Probably because you either completely missed the point of what I was saying and/or you don't like the implications of what I said or for whatever other reason.

I'm not going to reply any further to your very negative, unrealistic and unproductive way of communication.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Now headphones have terrible terrible trebble compared to a dedicated tweeter. Period. And they have compared to studio monitors a bloated bass with much harmonic distortion (though good in certain ways because there is no room to mess up the bass further) and their trebble is just not even close to the quality of the very cheapest studio monitors (but again, no room to mess it up further either).
I'm sorry but this simply is not true. The treble in really good quality headphones is vastly superior to the cheapest studio monitors, you have to spend much more money to get treble in monitors that matches or betters the best headphones. Also as a whole headphones distortion levels are an order of magnitude lower than speakers across the entire frequency range, thats just a fact.

I love using high end monitors and would recommend everyone use them over headphones most of the time (in a properly treated room), but what you're saying is just not true.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3396
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
None of those things are words I said.
I said headphones are not a replacement for good monitors in a good room.
And the reason for this is that headphones have specific issues which currently one can't really overcome.

I never said headphones are useless. Nor did I say the headphone tests provided on certain websites are useless.
You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never said / are twisting my words in order to ridicule or something like that, the information and experience I shared. Probably because you either completely missed the point of what I was saying and/or you don't like the implications of what I said or for whatever other reason.

I'm not going to reply any further to your very negative, unrealistic and unproductive way of communication.
Ok lets try a more productive way, if you may please.

Why their test are close to what people think, their experience ?

For example most people say that the hd800 is bright, has good soundstage, imaging.

Also they say things for other headphone and most of them are close to the result of the test.

So may you please tell me if i can buy a hd800 and also be happy regarging what the test says ?

I want to save money to get the best speaker later so i was thinking why not getting one of the best headphone so i can mix with them and my really low end speakers. I get the low frequency from headphone etc.

But now after your answer i don't know what to do... should i go for a low /middle range studio monitor before then save money ?

BTW i was going to sell my denon ah-d2000 for the hd800
Old 31st March 2019
  #3397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
Ok lets try a more productive way, if you may please.

Why their test are close to what people think, their experience ?

For example most people say that the hd800 is bright, has good soundstage, imaging.

Also they say things for other headphone and most of them are close to the result of the test.

So may you please tell me if i can buy a hd800 and also be happy regarging what the test says ?

I want to save money to get the best speaker later so i was thinking why not getting one of the best headphone so i can mix with them and my really low end speakers. I get the low frequency from headphone etc.

But now after your answer i don't know what to do... should i go for a low /middle range studio monitor before then save money ?

BTW i was going to sell my denon ah-d2000 for the hd800
Ah maybe I didn't interpret your posts the right way, I thought you were only being sarcastic.

I would not put too much hope in the HD800. I personally don't think it's worth the money.
I think if you set up studio monitors costing less than half what the HD800 costs, in a proper way the end result is better.
If you have a small room you may have to add a lot of absorption (which is cheap if you do it yourself) before you get proper acoustics.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
I'm sorry but this simply is not true. The treble in really good quality headphones is vastly superior to the cheapest studio monitors, you have to spend much more money to get treble in monitors that matches or betters the best headphones. Also as a whole headphones distortion levels are an order of magnitude lower than speakers across the entire frequency range, thats just a fact.

I love using high end monitors and would recommend everyone use them over headphones most of the time (in a properly treated room), but what you're saying is just not true.
I don't know where you get that idea.
Cone breakup in headphone drivers is severe. There are no tweeters on even cheap studio monitors which have cone breakup anywhere near that bad. (you'd have to look at full range drivers for a similar picture, and you don't see full range drivers in studio monitors for that very reason)
Look at unsmoothed measurements of both. The picture is quite clear. (It would also be clear if you understood how drivers work in practice.)
Btw, don't confuse baffle edge diffraction of monitors with unrounded edges as cone breakup. Baffle edge diffraction is not a good thing but not nearly as bad a thing as cone breakup.

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers. For this you need to look at the higher harmonic distortion products and I never see this posted for headphones. The 2nd harmonic for instance isn't so bad, the 5th harmonic is very bad and much more audible. Speaker drivers can have very low higher harmonics, less than 0.01% (less than -80dB). I don't know how this is for headphones. But this is not the most interesting point as linear distortion due to cone breakup is by far the most audible thing. And also more audible than harmonic distortion is intermodulation distortion which is also far worse for headphones VS multi-way speakers.

But perhaps take this discussion to a new thread.
I responded long ago somewhat on-topic I think, but furthering this discussion here is probably not appreciated.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
I don't know where you get that idea.
Cone breakup in headphone drivers is severe. There are no tweeters on even cheap studio monitors which have cone breakup anywhere near that bad. (you'd have to look at full range drivers for a similar picture, and you don't see full range drivers in studio monitors for that very reason)
Look at unsmoothed measurements of both. The picture is quite clear. (It would also be clear if you understood how drivers work in practice.)
Btw, don't confuse baffle edge diffraction of monitors with unrounded edges as cone breakup. Baffle edge diffraction is not a good thing but not nearly as bad a thing as cone breakup.

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers. For this you need to look at the higher harmonic distortion products and I never see this posted for headphones. The 2nd harmonic for instance isn't so bad, the 5th harmonic is very bad and much more audible. Speaker drivers can have very low higher harmonics, less than 0.01% (less than -80dB). I don't know how this is for headphones. But this is not the most interesting point as linear distortion due to cone breakup is by far the most audible thing. And also more audible than harmonic distortion is intermodulation distortion which is also far worse for headphones VS multi-way speakers.

But perhaps take this discussion to a new thread.
I responded long ago somewhat on-topic I think, but furthering this discussion here is probably not appreciated.
And yet despite all this Grammy winning mixers like Andrew Schepps have mixed entire records solely on headphones. He mixed the Low Roar album on his Sony mdr-7506.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3400
OMU
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Poor guy, somebody tell him. And also call Schick right away to if on it!
Old 31st March 2019
  #3401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post

Also it's not clear to me if headphone harmonic distortion is an order of magnitude lower than with speaker drivers.
That much is very clear but the measured results don't lie, TOTAL harmonic distortion across the entire frequency range is way way lower on headphones than all but the most high end of speakers. Sure if you were to try and drive headphones as loud as a pair of speakers trying to listen to them 1m away then yes, severe breakup, the speaker would win no contest. But its precisely because the ear is directly next to the driver with headphones that they don't have to be driven anywhere near as hard as a speaker cone.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
That much is very clear but the measured results don't lie, TOTAL harmonic distortion across the entire frequency range is way way lower on headphones than all but the most high end of speakers. Sure if you were to try and drive headphones as loud as a pair of speakers trying to listen to them 1m away then yes, severe breakup, the speaker would win no contest. But its precisely because the ear is directly next to the driver with headphones that they don't have to be driven anywhere near as hard as a speaker cone.
Yes well what I meant is that THD does not give you the information regarding the nature and audibility of the distortion.
You can have -50dB second harmonic with the higher harmonics below -90dB even. Or you can have a driver with -60dB second harmonic but many of the higher harmonics at around the same level. Both will give a similar THD reading yet their audible distortion is different.
But as I said, harmonic distortion is not the problem with headphones. It is linear distortion, both due to serious cone breakup and in a way due to no natural HRTF. These are the biggest problems of headphones. And if you want to talk about non-linear distortion of headphones then one should talk about IMD.
But again, please start a different thread for this discussion. I don't feel comfortable replying in this thread anymore as this is way off topic and therefore rude to others in this thread.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3403
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
But again, please start a different thread for this discussion. I don't feel comfortable replying in this thread anymore as this is way off topic and therefore rude to others in this thread.
I am trying to create a new topic with all the quote, but i am not good for quoting, anyone could create one, if you know how to do it, i really want to know more about it.
Old 31st March 2019
  #3404
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Seinheiser hd600 seems to sound cool for their price.
Also heard a lot about those Focal headphones.
What do you guys think ?

Sergio
Old 31st March 2019
  #3405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleJo View Post
I am trying to create a new topic with all the quote, but i am not good for quoting, anyone could create one, if you know how to do it, i really want to know more about it.
Made a new thread for the discussion of headphones vs monitors here:
Headphones vs monitors
Old 1st April 2019
  #3406
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
Made a new thread for the discussion of headphones vs monitors here:
Headphones vs monitors
Awesome !
Old 4th April 2019
  #3407
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While I much prefer mixing on my Spiral Groove Studio Ones to my HD800, I've been doing a lot of spatial audio recording and mixing for VR / 360, 99% consumed on headphones, so I have to mix on headphones most of the time. I don't agree with one of the previous posts saying the HD800s are bloated in the bass range - I think they're a touch light on bass if anything. Also, while I was completely skeptical of the Sonarworks plugin, and resisted using it despite other people in my field using it, I went back and have been running a demo for the past week. I don't know if the previous poster was using an old version or something, but I don't see how he can claim Sonarworks makes the hd800s sound worse. I've been listening to hundreds of tracks from every genre, and there isn't a single mix that sounds better with Sonarworks off. Once your ears adjust, it's not even close...it brings them much more in line with a neutral speaker, and while they don't have the clarity or transient response of the Studio Ones (better w/ the linear phase option for sure though), I feel like I could do a pretty solid mix on the hd800 with Sonarworks alone.
Old 4th April 2019
  #3408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kedbear View Post
And yet despite all this Grammy winning mixers like Andrew Schepps have mixed entire records solely on headphones. He mixed the Low Roar album on his Sony mdr-7506.
Yeah, but he's probably a lot less anal retentive than many on this thread, and he's very talented to boot.
Old 5th April 2019
  #3409
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonwerker View Post
O310.... Nearfield???
Sure nearfield! I use them as nearfields and they are great!
Old 7th June 2019
  #3410
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Bichop's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
They both have pros and cons just by design (haven't heard either personally).
Aphions are passive, not flat in the bass (made for half space like many home hifi speakers). But uses fairly good Seas drivers. Don't measure as well as some other speakers distortion wise especially right below the crossover because of the aluminium woofer / 2-way design. But the good points are fairly good phase around the crossover due to the recessed treble in the waveguide and low crossover freq, fairly even radiation pattern due to waveguide and fairly focussed treble and lower treble also due to the waveguide which is good in less than perfectly treated rooms and also reduces edge diffraction which would be pretty bad otherwise for such a rectangular box.
Quested v2108 is active which generally means a better crossover filter and better control of the amps of the individual drivers. But it is quite a thing for an 8 inch driver to make it all the way to the treble in a two way, even if the tweeter is taken to 1.4kHz. And even though the tweeter is bigger than normal it seems to me it must still be stressed somewhat and I'm not sure which tweeter it is (Wavecor?) but probably has less than ideal harmonic distortion levels. The woofer also probably is not as tight as the Amphion Seas woofer. Seems like a design that doesn't give an overly detailed sound / not very critical listening which you may prefer.
Though I'm of the opinion that if your front end is in order and your room and placement is top notch that you won't easily be bothered by a speaker which gives a lot of information. It's usually when there are nasty direct reflections from walls, ceiling/floor and/or desk in the mids or treble, or when there are cancellations due to direct reflections or modes in the bass, that's when the sound gets out of balance and you can easily get unacceptable/unmusical results.
Seems to me that the A17 you already have is a great speaker overall (even with the high crossover), if it is indeed marginally too critical sounding (can't imagine it being more than this) by design, then a small EQ curve /tilt to warm it up should fix it. If this doesn't fix it then there's probably a room /reflection problem in my experience.

One other thing, for what it's worth. These days you can build a speaker better than anything available for sale commercially for less money, if you're willing to put in some time and effort.
For instance BlieSMa T34A-4 tweeter 1.3kHz crossover. Seas W18EX001 mid-woofer. Build in closed dead box with stuffing. And for instance Seas L26ROY for subs/bass in another box, closed or ported or passive resonator whatever you want. Amp it all with a Hypex Fusion amp which also handles all the crossover functions / DSP which also makes the drivers time aligned / in perfect phase on a flat baffle. Measure and set it all up exactly as you wish with a cheap calibrated measurement mic.
Will be cheaper than high end monitors and will beat them all in soundquality. Future has already arrived for diy. And if you have a big enough room stuff it full with 25cm or thicker absorption, whole walls and ceiling (I'm personally doing even the floor) not just tiny 10cm thick panels here and there. And make an acoustically transparant desk and mix on a computer instead of a big mixing desk reflection horror right in front of you. And you'll have as high end a studio as it gets and full control over how it sounds.

Well, I have been using Sonarworks for 2 years, after making the measurements, it corrects 6 db in 150 hz, I think it is logical for the desktop, and 3 db maximum in other places, but the zone from 2.5 to 4kz does not need correction, nevertheless that's where it bothers me to listen to the PSI.
When I had Antelope Pure 2 it was unbearable, because I think they are pronounced in that area, with the change to Prism sound Lyra 2 everything has improved a lot, but I still have too much information in those frequencies
PSI are incredible, that I have clear, and I recommend, everything translates very well, but I need something more quiet in that area because of my slight hyperacusis and since there is change, which has more extension at low frequencies.
The V2108 I think is the ideal for me, I hope not to be wrong.
I will put my A17s on sale, but it is only for this reason, they are impressive monitors
Old 15th June 2019
  #3411
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basstian_DE View Post
no trickery at all. pretty simple designs and they don't make secrets out of it. the founder is a nice guy and willingly explains his designs. the speakers have their color. but that is more dud to the chassis used and not the design itself. not too natural but still very capable working tools. which mostly relies on their amplifier which is really first class super controlling and not colouring at all. tested the abacus amp with the amphions and that was a pretty good match. probably the best possible match for them. their APC indeed has the proclaimed bandwidth and phase accuracy and is pretty impressive. the design is not secret either. but it is not working too well in a control room for it is very sensitive to placement and furniture or Mixing desks in its way.
It's been a while but would you say the Abacus Amp (which one actually?) is a better match than the Amp100? Have you compared them?
Old 8th September 2019
  #3412
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To bad OP didn’t had a chance to review and compare Geithain 906! Not all of us have the money for the highest end speakers.
I always wanted to know how much worse the 906a are than his 944s or small Amphions and PSIs.
Old 10th September 2019
  #3413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
To bad OP didn’t had a chance to review and compare Geithain 906! Not all of us have the money for the highest end speakers.
I always wanted to know how much worse the 906a are than his 944s or small Amphions and PSIs.
I have both the 906 and 944K and they do sound basically the same - other than the 944K have a better bass extension.

I have had them side by side with the same music - plugging and unplugging to compare - if the musec does not have the low bass end it is extremely difficult to tell them apart. It's only when the music has an extended bass that it becomes clear which is which.
Old 10th September 2019
  #3414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I have both the 906 and 944K and they do sound basically the same - other than the 944K have a better bass extension.

I have had them side by side with the same music - plugging and unplugging to compare - if the musec does not have the low bass end it is extremely difficult to tell them apart. It's only when the music has an extended bass that it becomes clear which is which.
That sounds promising!

//Maybe i should open another thread... <sorry>

I'm not a full-time/pro mixer or anything like that but a producer or my own music and of my band (well, at the end i'm a producer and mixer (sometimes even a mastering engineer, of course, y'no how that goes today)) + doing all of that for a few other bands in my town/area. My music ranges from poppy to experimental IDM, noise, ambient, electroacoustic, music concrete, post-rock and quazi-symphonic.

I've been using Neumann KH120A + Audiotechnica ATH50 headphones for about two yrs now with a pretty good results; i couldn't use bigger speakers cause i moved to a new apartment where, for the time being, i've been forced to use the smallest room in my 3-room apartment as a 'studio'. Soon I'll move to another, bigger room, which is cca 20 m2 big, big enough for all of my production+mixing needs. Also, I'm not sure I ever really needed bigger speakers... hmm

Anyway, I've been very satisfied with 120s but sometimes i need more resolution in the mids and better stereo imaging so I'd like to upgrade them, for the aforementioned tasks but for sound design in general. I'm also planning to buy better headphones, probably Audiotechnica ATH70x.

Regarding speakers, my short wish list looks like this, ordered by price ascending (prices incl. taxes):

- Geithain RL906 (2660 euros)
- Amphion One15 + Amp100 (2900 euros)
- PSI A17m (3380 euros)
- Neumann KH310A (3630 euros)

Few ppl told me to buy the Geithains, that they'll suit my needs (the best for the money), and I'm kind of inclined to them, second would probably be the 310s.

Technically speaking, I'd gladly buy something like Geithain 944 or Kii speakers but I can't justify spending that amount of money for something that's basically a hobby of mine. Not yet, anyway!

One more thing, I usually monitor at normal listening levels; in essence, I'm looking for quality over quantity.

I'm not sure if such tests valid but the difference in midrange resolution and stereo imaging is quite apparent here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZak7BN1Jj8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnnzHVK2vfY

Last edited by dotl; 10th September 2019 at 04:42 PM..
Old 10th September 2019
  #3415
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
To bad OP didn’t had a chance to review and compare Geithain 906! Not all of us have the money for the highest end speakers.
I always wanted to know how much worse the 906a are than his 944s or small Amphions and PSIs.
I owned the MO2 and worked with RL901k, i listend to the 944k and the rl906 several times. The 944k are my dream speakers, btw.

I think it is right that all Geithain can sound very similar despite the bass extension, but I also think there is a gap between all 2-way and the 3-way Geithains. On the 3-ways every element has more space around it, i recognized that especially comparing rl906 and 944k. When I compared the MO2 and the RL901k it was not so obvious. the rl906 are great but the 944k is clearer and less distorted (not that the rl906 is much distorted).

Best
Gerald
Old 10th September 2019
  #3416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabelton View Post

I think it is right that all Geithain can sound very similar despite the bass extension, but I also think there is a gap between all 2-way and the 3-way Geithains. On the 3-ways every element has more space around it, i recognized that especially comparing rl906 and 944k.
Yes, that figures! I understand that speakers from the same manufacturer can have a similar sound signature but to say that something like the 906 sounds the same as the 901 minus the bass is equal to saying that the kh120 sounds the same as kh420 minus the bass! I mean, is that even possible?

Also, have you ever compare kh310 and the 906?
Old 10th September 2019
  #3417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kabelton View Post
I owned the MO2 and worked with RL901k, i listend to the 944k and the rl906 several times. The 944k are my dream speakers, btw.

I think it is right that all Geithain can sound very similar despite the bass extension, but I also think there is a gap between all 2-way and the 3-way Geithains. On the 3-ways every element has more space around it, i recognized that especially comparing rl906 and 944k. When I compared the MO2 and the RL901k it was not so obvious. the rl906 are great but the 944k is clearer and less distorted (not that the rl906 is much distorted).

Best
Gerald
I found the 906 to distort very early with bassy material actually. Great little speakers, but give them bass and they will distort or stay rather quiet.

doti, you need to actually test-drive some of these to find out which ones fit your needs and taste.
Old 10th September 2019
  #3418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
Also, have you ever compare kh310 and the 906?
I've compared the older k+h O300 with the RL906. This was about 10 years ago I think.
Neither speaker is perfect by far.
The O300 is the technically better speaker, less distortion, flatter frequency response, deeper and more controlled bass. But also a bit peaky in the upper mids / lower treble to me. Not always easy to place, was a bit finicky especially around the crossover region (though this may very well have changed with the new version which has a much lower crossover, 2kHz vs 3.3kHz on the old one if my memory is correct). And the bass felt "compressed" somehow at moderate volume. I did not think it was a very musical speaker, was always fighting with it. Also didn't like the treble a lot, it had both the bad things of a not so great metal tweeter combined with the bad things of a paper tweeter to me (whatever that means). Though still, in the right room with the right placement and the right music it could give a high definition sound. Though again, more often than not something "forward" got in the way of the sound around the crossover..
The RL906 I had a few weeks to compare with the O300. In the end I went with the O300. Something which I regretted from time to time. (but probably I would have regretted it too if I went the other way).
The RL906 is not a very analytical speaker. Very much "paper driver" sound. I found it's fairly coloured, but with very nice musical mids which take the spotlight. Treble isn't very good in my opinion. Though it's not obtrusive, it also doesn't give you all the info and detail. And the main problem with the treble is that it gave me a little bit a clogged ear feeling. I remember there's a measureable defect in the treble as well, I believe a dip at a certain frequency but can't remember exactly. The RL906 is less finicky with placement than the O300 but still needs good placement to bring out a good sound ofcourse. Also while it's fairly good with imaging I found that a well placed old O96 (recently serviced and tuned by K+H) imaged still a bit more realistic. The RL906 however is perhaps the most musical 2-way nearfield I've ever heard! It makes music sound good and exciting. You feel the musical energy (while you may be missing a bit of critical listening). Especially good for hearing compression / the dynamic "feel" of a track. Where most other speakers give you a signal that a sound is too "soft" and needs compression etc or things sit too "empty", with the RL906 you hear the dynamic "vibe" foremost. Really fun in that way. edit: one last comment on the RL906, it has a very "ported bass" sound. No mistaking this one for a closed speaker for sure..
If you want analytical listening get the K+H or something else in that direction. If you want fun get the RL906. That would be my opinion. edit: btw one last comment, the O300 can sound like a big full-range speaker at times (though struggling to do so often), the RL906 not so much, it's a small 2-way with ported bass trying to sound big but it will never sound full-range like the O300 let alone like a real full-range speaker.
Btw, both speakers don't go loud very well. Though perhaps the new O310 goes a bit louder than the O300 I tried. One last thing, I do think both speakers have become a bit too expensive. They cost significantly less 10 years ago when they were already expensive. I think it was 1600 for RL906 pair and 2300 or so for O300 pair (after discount). For the prices you mention the value for money is even less. These are not god like speakers by far.
Old 10th September 2019
  #3419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I found the 906 to distort very early with bassy material actually. Great little speakers, but give them bass and they will distort or stay rather quiet.
I’ve read that the 906 has much better low-end than the kh120 but the Neumanns won’t distort easily; maybe I haven’t pushed them enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by syncussion View Post
I've compared the older k+h O300 with the RL906.

...
Wow maan! Thank you for such a detailed review!
I agree that those speakers (as is majority of pro equipment) are a bit pricey...

Now I have a feeling that I understand those two speakers as if I tried them myself!
Can you recommend me anything else/better in that price range, pls?
Old 11th September 2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dotl View Post
Wow maan! Thank you for such a detailed review!
I agree that those speakers (as is majority of pro equipment) are a bit pricey...

Now I have a feeling that I understand those two speakers as if I tried them myself!
Can you recommend me anything else/better in that price range, pls?
I can recommend you something far better in that price range, but it comes with more effort
And that is to build your own speakers. You can build the highest end speakers yourself which beat 10k+ speakers.
Here's how:

Tweeter x2: Bliesma T34B-4
Mid x2: SB Acoustics SB17NBAC35-4 (or SB17CAC35-4 pick whichever one you think looks better)
Woofer x2: Seas L26ROY XM001-04
Amp x2: Hypex FA123 or FA253

Make a cabinet out of 25mm thick quality MDF or baltic birch if you prefer. Place the tweeter exactly above the mid and as close a possible to it. Place the woofer roughly below the mid driver, not too far away but doesn't have to be touching.
Cabinet has to have a seperate internal volume for the woofer and seperate internal volume for the mid (tweeter can be in same internal volume as the mid. Woofer internal space has to be very roughly 30liter. Mid driver internal volume doesn't matter as long as its not crazy small. Fill both internal volumes with low density fibreglass (and keep them completely closed). Add internal bracing to the cabinet so it's very rigid and the walls don't vibrate / sound completely tight/rigid when you knock on them.
All the above is very doable without experience except for the most difficult part that is that you have to flush mount the tweeter and mid driver (can do it with the woofer as well but not very important soundwise). You can find companies that can do this for you.
And lastly round the edges of your cabinet as much as you can.
Wire the drivers to the plate amps, put the plate amps in seperate wood enclosures on the floor or so, that's easier than building them into the speakers.

Then get a measurement microphone and REW software (Room EQ Wizard) and or ARTA software (both free). Measure (outside with gated measurements at multiple points around the on-axis) and EQ the drivers with the Fusion Amps so they are flat and then apply a 24dB/oct Linkwitz-Riley crossover between woofer and mid at around 160Hz and a 24dB/oct or 36dB/oct Linkwitz-Riley crossover between mid and tweeter around 1600Hz or so.
Also set the correct delay compensation for the drivers in the Fusion amps so the crossovers are perfectly in phase.
You need to read up a bit on using REW at the REW forum, read the Hypex Fusion amp manual and get advice on questions you have at diyaudio.com or a similar forum.
Once finished you will have the very highest quality 3-way. Better than ATC, Barefoot, etc. It will go loud, have the lowest distortion, be extremely linear, have the highest quality amps (NCore amps inside those Fusion plate amps), have the best off-axis response, etc.

And yes, the above way is with some effort but it's really amazing that one can do this these days. The Fusion amps make this very doable with their DSP crossovers. And the quality of the drivers I mentioned is the latest and amazing. You can see some of their measurements at hificompass.com and for the Seas at VoiceCoil magazine 'test bench'.

For ready made speakers in the price catagory you mentioned there isn't anything truly high-end I'm aware of. There's a huge profit margin on ready made speakers both for manufacturer and then a big markup for dealers etc. These things at this price range are all constructed at low cost. Bad drivers, bad cabinets, bad amps, bad crossovers and most often compromised designs to start with.
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