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High end nearfield test
Old 4th August 2015
  #3031
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DR Music's Avatar
I currently have the focal twins and a KRK Sub. And the problem is that, the twins make everything sound great. Never understood that but I do now, what would be a nice monitor that gives me a non flattering sound around $4000. I'm asking here because there seems to be some cool smartie pants around this thread..

Last edited by DR Music; 5th August 2015 at 03:01 AM..
Old 5th August 2015
  #3032
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Avantmidi's Avatar
Get some 8351's with GLM kit and be happily done with it
Old 5th August 2015
  #3033
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jlaws's Avatar
I think those are more than 4k, unless he meant 4k per monitor...
Old 5th August 2015
  #3034
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Ah Yes! You R right
Old 7th August 2015
  #3035
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DR Music's Avatar
$4000 a pair. Wonder how some PMC twotwo6 would compare. I wish there was a traveling pro audio store...:( Crazy Chicago has no real bigger Pro Audio store.
Old 8th August 2015
  #3036
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Someone here on the forum did a shootout between twotwo 8 and the 8351. For him 8351 won. Next level qualy.
Old 8th August 2015
  #3037
Old 8th August 2015
  #3038
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
Someone here on the forum did a shootout between twotwo 8 and the 8351. For him 8351 won. Next level qualy.
it wasnt no shoot out, the guy heard the 8351 in a store and said the 8351 sounded better. I have not seen one person working with Amphion and 8351 yet and compare.

Sean Olive research show that the bass extension and bass quality will influence for 25% of SQ quality perceived.

8351 having much stronger, full and powerful bass then the Amphion, im not surprised that in a quick listen, the 8351 sounded ''better''. however, it seems also that the imaging quality of the 8351 is spectacular.

thats why id love for Audiovisjion to do a proper test with the 8351. but he did test some genelec in this test and I think he may not be interested in trying another Genelec....

Last edited by murphythecat87; 8th August 2015 at 01:57 PM..
Old 8th August 2015
  #3039
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Avantmidi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post
it wasnt no shoot out, the guy heard the 8351 in a store and said the 8351 sounded better. I have not seen one person working with Amphion and 8351 yet and compare.

Sean Olive research show that the bass extension and bass quality will influence for 25% of SQ quality perceived.

8351 having much stronger, full and powerful bass then the Amphion, im not surprised that in a quick listen, the 8351 sounded ''better''. however, it seems also that the imaging quality of the 8351 is spectacular.

thats why id love for Audiovisjion to do a proper test with the 8351. but he did test some genelec in this test and I think he may not be interested in trying another Genelec....
Well i dont know about that. What I do know is that the 8351 are the best nearfields I have ever heard. My first mixes translate like nothing else I have ever used. These are serious full range dsp controlled nearfield monitors. Amphions supposed to be really good but damn ugly and what about them not being active. For me thats allot of BS. Each to its own though
Old 8th August 2015
  #3040
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
Well i dont know about that. What I do know is that the 8351 are the best nearfields I have ever heard. My first mixes translate like nothing else I have ever used. These are serious full range dsp controlled nearfield monitors. Amphions supposed to be really good but damn ugly and what about them not being active. For me thats allot of BS. Each to its own though
Because a speaker is not active it is 'a lot of BS'? Really? Wow. Maybe wait to call it a lot of BS until you have used it. At least.
Old 8th August 2015
  #3041
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post

8351 having much stronger, full and powerful bass then the Amphion, im not surprised that in a quick listen, the 8351 sounded ''better''.
It sounds like you may have thought the comparison was between Genelec and Amphion. It was the PMC twotwo8, not the two18 being compared.
Old 8th August 2015
  #3042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Because a speaker is not active it is 'a lot of BS'? Really? Wow. Maybe wait to call it a lot of BS until you have used it. At least.
My friend. Im not stating anything about the quality of the Amphions. Please read carefully. FOR ME...there you go mate. Cheers, Avantmidi
Old 9th August 2015
  #3043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
My friend. Im not stating anything about the quality of the Amphions. Please read carefully. FOR ME...there you go mate. Cheers, Avantmidi
And what's your opinion based on?
Old 9th August 2015
  #3044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSilver View Post
And what's your opinion based on?
I believe he was saying he doesn't like them because they're ugly and they are passive...they are kinda ugly, but boy would I like some two18s.
Old 9th August 2015
  #3045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
My friend. Im not stating anything about the quality of the Amphions. Please read carefully. FOR ME...there you go mate. Cheers, Avantmidi
Forgive me for finding it a bit silly to dismiss a speaker as BS based on the fact it is passive. Oh, and not having used it. Do think what you like. Mate.
Old 9th August 2015
  #3046
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
I believe he was saying he doesn't like them because they're ugly and they are passive...they are kinda ugly, but boy would I like some two18s.
And he owns Gens 8351 which probably could won the prize of the worst looking monitor .... don't take it personal user avantmidi
Old 9th August 2015
  #3047
A.D
Gear Nut
 

Aesthetically, I find the Genelec 8351 far more appealing than the Amphion range - indeed, I find the former particularly distinguished.

Moreover, by 'BS' I believe the aforementioned contributor meant he finds passive monitors unnecessarily complicated / burdensome in comparison to their active counterparts, perhaps due to spatial considerations, wiring, etc.

Both Genelec and Amphion manufacture superb monitors.
Old 9th August 2015
  #3048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.D View Post
Moreover, by 'BS' I believe the aforementioned contributor meant he finds passive monitors unnecessarily complicated
A passive design actually has [a lot] less electrical components in the signal-path (only one power amp, simpler crossover filters etc) - which some would say is beneficial to the sound quality. Less 'crap' to mess with the quality of the sound so to speak.

A while ago, I discussed passive speaker design with one of the speaker designers at ATC. He explained that it's easier to design a high quality active crossover with phase compensation between the speaker elements etc. But he also said that it's possible to design really good passive crossovers. As a designer he preferred active filtering because it gave him more control, but they design great sounding passive speakers as well.

Personally, I have yet to hear a good two-way design rival the sound reproduction of a good three-way design. But hopefully I will get the chance to try out the Amphions in the future.

To me, speakers are like clothes, you really can't decide if they fit you until you've tried them.


Cheers
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 9th August 2015
  #3049
A.D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post
A passive design actually has [a lot] less electrical components in the signal-path (only one power amp, simpler crossover filters etc) - which some would say is beneficial to the sound quality. Less 'crap' to mess with the quality of the sound so to speak.
I appreciate that; I was talking in practical terms - i.e, active monitors are generally easier to set up, require no extra rack space, are simpler to transport, etc.
Old 9th August 2015
  #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post
imo, you NEED a very good sub system for any 2 way speakers as the sub 50hz are important for natural sound. With a well integrated sub system, the bass of 2-ways is very often comparable to 3 way design, and you have the perfect imaging and coherency of the best 2 ways.
Hehe, you know of course that adding a sub woofer makes it into a three-way system. ;-)

I don't agree with you regarding the coherency or imaging. Don't get me wrong, a good two-way system will get you all the way when mixing, especially if your control room can handle low-end and as you say, with added support from a subwoofer.

The mid-range depth and definition of a good three-way system, well a two-way system can't compete with that. Just compare a pair of ATC SCM50 with a pair of SCM20. Both are fantastic sounding speakers, solid performers, but the two-way SCM20 just doesn't have that "ATC mid-range".

Another difference is that three-way speakers generally have a larger cabinet - to properly fit all three elements. The added volume helps support the bass driver making the speaker less "boxy" sounding and better at handling bass dynamics.


Off to bed
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor
Old 9th August 2015
  #3051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Forgive me for finding it a bit silly to dismiss a speaker as BS based on the fact it is passive. Oh, and not having used it. Do think what you like. Mate.
Not an excellent reason to dismiss a monitor speaker I agree. But hell yeah I'm so sticking with it man. Who gets wood from an external amp. Me not, I tell you, me not man
Old 10th August 2015
  #3052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post
Hehe, you know of course that adding a sub woofer makes it into a three-way system. ;-)

I don't agree with you regarding the coherency or imaging. Don't get me wrong, a good two-way system will get you all the way when mixing, especially if your control room can handle low-end and as you say, with added support from a subwoofer.

The mid-range depth and definition of a good three-way system, well a two-way system can't compete with that. Just compare a pair of ATC SCM50 with a pair of SCM20. Both are fantastic sounding speakers, solid performers, but the two-way SCM20 just doesn't have that "ATC mid-range".

Another difference is that three-way speakers generally have a larger cabinet - to properly fit all three elements. The added volume helps support the bass driver making the speaker less "boxy" sounding and better at handling bass dynamics.


Off to bed
Fred
Sound On Sound contributor

I know many who would keep their two ways over the ATC 3 ways. comparing the atc20 with the atc50 and making a generalization as if because the atc 50 is better then the atc 20, all 2 ways will be less favourable then 3 ways is just poor argument.

its a speaker vs speaker case imo, not 2 ways vs 3 ways. Id take amphion over the vast majority of 3 ways available.
adding a subwoofer to a 2-way is not imo comparable to classic 3 ways because yes, at high spl, the midwoofer of 2 ways will distort..
Old 10th August 2015
  #3053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
Not an excellent reason to dismiss a monitor speaker I agree. But hell yeah I'm so sticking with it man. Who gets wood from an external amp. Me not, I tell you, me not man
Fair enough. I don't 'get wood' fro m amps either but I have found myself very happy indeed with what Amphion has meant to my enjoyment and workflow reality. And recently I am thinking passive is actually more likely to hit the spot for me as it turns out. Something about less stuff/gimmicky **** between me and the sound. Less of a construction. Simple. I like simple.
Old 13th August 2015
  #3054
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Finally got my Amphion One18s a couple of weeks back, couldn't be happier. These things are fantastic sounding, and pure joy to mix on. They pair great with the Geithain 944Ks, a great counter part. Once again I have to say thanks to all the contributors on this thread (especially Audiovisjon), if it weren't for this wealth of information I wouldn't have known of the existence of either company. My long search for the perfect monitoring setup (for me) is done! :-)

Both the Geithains and Amphions are incredibly easy to mix on, and inspire a lot of confidence. The mixes I've done since getting them have gone quickly, and gotten big thumbs up from the clients. Can't really ask for more than that! The cheeky bonus to all of this is having these speakers to enjoy my music collection on as well - several nights I've suddenly realized it's 7am and getting light out, and I still can't switch everything off and go to bed. Listening to music on these speakers is like rediscovering my favourite music all over again.....and that's worth it's weight in gold on it's own!
Old 13th August 2015
  #3055
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++++

Last edited by Tone Ranger; 13th August 2015 at 09:45 PM.. Reason: Sorry, double post....
Old 15th August 2015
  #3056
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Just saying there are fewer components in the signal path means less opportunity for the signal to be screwed up in a passive crossover really is missing what the passive crossover actually does.

The driver/filter relationship is an extremely chaotic one. Do you really want a speaker where the filter curves change as the drivers heat up? A passive crossover is dependant on having the correct impedance load attached to it, and surely everybody here knows how much the impedance of a driver can change while it's in use? And then we have passive inductors in the signal chain too - incredibly non-linear and contributing all sorts of distortions (and incredibly expensive to build).

A good passive system can be designed, but the active equivalent will always, always be superior (if lower distortion and dynamic linearity is your aim).
Old 15th August 2015
  #3057
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My aim is to have monitors that are fun/inspiring to work on without being fatiguing, and that translate to the outside world... I don't give a rats ass what the technical specs of my monitor are if they achieve this. Music is about emotions, not tech specs.

More hit songs have been mixed on passive speakers than active speakers by a huge margin (from mix cubes to NS10's, ProAc100's etc).

And so it may be true that active monitors are superior to passive speakers from a technical standpoint, but if you look at the real world results of hundreds of thousands of mixes over the past 50 years, there's no arguing passive speakers are the weapon of choice. It would be interesting to interview all the worlds best mixers as to why they all choose passive speakers.

My guess is it has to do with using superior amps... Most amps in active monitors are sub par at best, and I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of what an amp does. I'm not a technical guy though, so this is just my guess based on the experience of going through many different active and passive speakers, with different amps associated with them. The amp makes a HUGE difference.

Wouldn't it be nice if active speakers offered the users a "high end amp" model??

Just my 2 cents
Old 16th August 2015
  #3058
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Books are far more useful than forums if you want to find out how the electronics pushing your speaker drivers in and out actually work.

Building a good, high power amplifier is not rocket science (although the audiophile world would like you to think it is), and anyway it's the power supply which really makes the biggest difference in most modern amp designs. Crossover distortion from a well designed class AB amplifier puts them on par with some of the best class A amps out there. I don't see what stops you from building this into an active speaker? I don't really care if the amplifier is in the back of the speaker box or sitting in an incredibly overpriced brushed alumnium box on an audiophile anti-vibration Magic Hifi rack.

Further to this, you reference a number of speaker companies making IMO rather poor quality speakers with some serious flaws who are often parts of a larger group along with amplifier brands (such as B&W).


I should clarify that I've never said you MUST go active to get a good speaker, but active is simply better. Passive speakers have been the rule of the roost 1) because of market forces and 2) because higher-power amplifiers used to be costly to manufacture and extremely complicated to design. That's no longer the case, nor has it been for quite some time.
Old 16th August 2015
  #3059
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Bilou's Avatar
 

Don't forget active and amplified speakers are not the same thing.

I do (IMHO) believe that active speakers are better, but the vast majority of manufacturers are offering passive speakers with bi or tri-amplification possibilities.

This way, you can choose good speakers and good amps, and even match the amps for the driver it will be used for.

And I must admit amplified speakers are rarely packed with very good amps, but sometimes it could happen
Old 16th August 2015
  #3060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat87 View Post

While I wont disagree that theres a lot of snake oil in audiophilia, I think you would see much more active speakers if they were so obviously superior. However, non of the top dogs offer active speakers.
Top dogs in which field? Almost all top professional monitor makers offer active speakers because making them active offers distinct advantages when trying to make the speaker as accurate as possible, no to mention reliable also.

Hi-fi brands do not as much, as they know audiophiles and -phools just love to "test" and argue about different amplifiers and hear great audible differences between them, and pay huge amounts of money for hot running 40 kg behemoths sitting on bronze cones in clear view.

While cool running, small and cheap class-D amps hidden inside the actives actually do the job better nowadays. But having an impressive amp rack is such an important part of the hobby, not really the best sound you could get with the same amount of money (spend 80% on the speakers…).
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