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Dangerous Music Source vs Crane Song Avocet Monitor Controllers
Old 12th April 2013
  #1
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ArmedProphet's Avatar
 

Dangerous Music Source vs Crane Song Avocet

I'm hoping someone can lead me in the right direction. I'm always buying and selling my way through gear trying to get to the top! I recently aquired my first Lynx Aurora 16 <whoohoo!> and I guess I'll be swapping out my Black Lion Audio modded RME UFX for the RME HDSPe AES and a monitoring management system

I am looking for the best monitoring capable. I just don't know how much greater fidelity I'll get from the Crane Song than from the Dangerous Source, perhaps there's even a better option I've not considered. I'm interested in any thoughts you slutz may have.
Old 13th April 2013
  #2
Music 1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmedProphet View Post
I'm hoping someone can lead me in the right direction. I'm always buying and selling my way through gear trying to get to the top! I recently aquired my first Lynx Aurora 16 <whoohoo!> and I guess I'll be swapping out my Black Lion Audio modded RME UFX for the RME HDSPe AES and a monitoring management system

I am looking for the best monitoring capable. I just don't know how much greater fidelity I'll get from the Crane Song than from the Dangerous Source, perhaps there's even a better option I've not considered. I'm interested in any thoughts you slutz may have.
I'd also consider the Dangerous Monitor ST as well because it has a stepped knob for best L/R tracking and having the remote like the Advocet is a nice feature so you don't have a bunch of wires sticking out.
Do you need the da, which the Cranesong and Source has? You could also go third party da, Dangerous dac ST or use the Lynx for that as well.
Old 22nd September 2017
  #3
Resurrecting this thread... thoughts?
Old 22nd September 2017
  #4
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Sigma's Avatar
presonus central station..it's PASSIVE ..just relays so much cleaner and way cheaper than active design
Old 22nd September 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
presonus central station..it's PASSIVE ..just relays so much cleaner and way cheaper than active design
The degradation by passive monitor controllers is well documented. Without a line driver to compensate for the effect of the impedance of the length of cable on the output there are both frequency changes and phase shift which occur.

Furthermore the person is central station doesn’t use relays, it uses a fairly krappy quad gang pot.

Personally, moving from an sm pro m patch to a dangerous st was like getting reading glasses when I didn’t realize I needed them.
Old 22nd September 2017
  #6
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MarcB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelfarr View Post
Resurrecting this thread... thoughts?
got a source and use its onboard converters. I've owned Lavry, Mytek, Benchmark etc and it stands with them, or I didn't notice any change in sound when I got the Source, then again I can't tell the difference between some £4 ebay dac and the source either so...

Source is great functionally as a monitor controller. Being able to play two completely different digital sources at the same time, ie to play your media player software to the Source's USB and also your DAW to its AES inputs and allow you to hear them both together is a godsend if your ASIO drivers aren't multi-client.

Headphone amp sounds great.

Downside for the source is:-

USB (XMOS) ASIO latency is locked at something like 22ms @ 44khz so too high to use as your dedicated audio interface if you play VST instruments.

No power switch and wall wart power supply.
Old 22nd September 2017
  #7
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelfarr View Post
Resurrecting this thread... thoughts?
I've been testing monitor controllers for the last few weeks.

Top of the tree in terms of sound quality are the Grace M905, Avocet and the Dangerous Monitor ST.

At this level nothing sounds less that stellar- and I could live with any of them but I'm going to be buying the Grace- upgrading from an SPL MTC2381 which has actually be great but I want to keep audio in my rack and go digital out of my DAW straight to a high quality digital converter.
It was a really close run thing and quite hard to split those three.
If the Burl Orca had a remote then I might have gone for that instead.

I didn't test the Dangerous Source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
presonus central station..it's PASSIVE ..just relays so much cleaner and way cheaper than active design
Um... no.
Old 22nd September 2017
  #8
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Taurean's Avatar
I wonder what the Slate Controller is like.
Old 22nd September 2017
  #9
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I would stay away from monitor st. Build quality is not great. Customer service is not stellar and repairs can take a month or so....which is a very bitter pill if it is your main controller.
Old 23rd September 2017
  #10
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Remember, Source sounds better when powered with a decent LPS.
Old 23rd September 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom25 View Post
Remember, Source sounds better when powered with a decent LPS.
evidence? The only people I've read online saying an LPS improves the sound are you and the cult of utter crackpots at head-fi (who regularly swap out valves, wires, capacitors and fuses on every bit of audio equipment, and they always discover it sounds better by a huge margin yet never actually show graphs pointing to this?)

Last edited by MarcB; 23rd September 2017 at 01:19 AM..
Old 23rd September 2017
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejsongs View Post
I would stay away from monitor st. Build quality is not great. Customer service is not stellar and repairs can take a month or so....which is a very bitter pill if it is your main controller.
My Monitor ST has been rock solid for years!
Old 23rd September 2017
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcB View Post
evidence? The only people I've read online saying an LPS improves the sound are you and the cult of utter crackpots at head-fi (who regularly swap out valves, wires, capacitors and fuses on every bit of audio equipment, and they always discover it sounds better by a huge margin yet never actually show graphs pointing to this?)
Utter crackpots...first off, you should drop that tone.

If you want to talk to someone else from here, I'd recommend Priko here at Gearslutz. He had the Source before and had a LPS for it. All decent and competent manufacturers will tell you the benefits of good power. Talk to Dave Hill of Crane Song. There is Michal of Mytek who has commented here on Gearslutz about the benefits of adding a LPS to the Brooklyn.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12115439-post54.html

Regarding evidence, around the web you can find noise measurements of various LPS and SMPS. A few users on computeraudiophile and other forums have noise measurements on these LPS. Search for these LPS along with the term "uV" for an easier search.

That's all the time I'm going to waster here.
Old 23rd September 2017
  #14
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

What's an LPS? I know what a UPS is, but....

I know this thread was started over four years ago, but still....

To start, I am a happy Avocet2 user

Crane Song vs. Dangerous Source.... first, you have to realize that when it comes to this stuff - in a general sense - you get what you pay for. So, is a $3k box going to outperform a sub $1k box? Generally, yes.

On the other hand, you have to ask.... not whether or not there is a difference in quality; sure there is. You have to ask whether or not the difference is audible. And unless you have fantastic ears with a ton of experience behind them, and unless you have great monitors in a primo mixing env., the answer will more than likely be "no".

Cheers.
Old 23rd September 2017
  #15
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LPS = Linear Power Supply
Old 23rd September 2017
  #16
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MarcB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom25 View Post
Utter crackpots...first off, you should drop that tone.
No. I shouldn't. Look at any thread in the source section and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[edit] ha ha, just realised you're one of them that's why you have you knickers in a twist. oh well.
I see it took near 3 whole days for the sound to open up after you "tinkered" with your USB port ha ha

Quote:

If you want to talk to someone else from here, I'd recommend Priko here at Gearslutz. He had the Source before and had a LPS for it. All decent and competent manufacturers will tell you the benefits of good power. Talk to Dave Hill of Crane Song. There is Michal of Mytek who has commented here on Gearslutz about the benefits of adding a LPS to the Brooklyn.
No. You threw the line that it sounded better with an LPS so I've asked you for to supply some evidence that spending £250+ on a LPS replacement for the wall wart brings audible improvements. Post some level matched recording from the sources main outputs with the LPS in and out.
If this huge improvement disappears due to the ADC conversion then the improvement isn't really that large or worth having in the first place is it?



Quote:

Regarding evidence, around the web you can find noise measurements of various LPS and SMPS. A few users on computeraudiophile and other forums have noise measurements on these LPS. Search for these LPS along with the term "uV" for an easier search.
Ha ha, computer audiophile gets a mention. But did they use the £500 USB cables or place the device on those £200 each magic stability pebbles during these tests?

Quote:
That's all the time I'm going to waster here.
Of course it is. How dare someone question your purchase advice and ask you to back up your claims on an open forum?

Last edited by MarcB; 23rd September 2017 at 03:11 AM..
Old 23rd September 2017
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom25 View Post
Utter crackpots...first off, you should drop that tone.

If you want to talk to someone else from here, I'd recommend Priko here at Gearslutz. He had the Source before and had a LPS for it. All decent and competent manufacturers will tell you the benefits of good power. Talk to Dave Hill of Crane Song. There is Michal of Mytek who has commented here on Gearslutz about the benefits of adding a LPS to the Brooklyn.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/12115439-post54.html

Regarding evidence, around the web you can find noise measurements of various LPS and SMPS. A few users on computeraudiophile and other forums have noise measurements on these LPS. Search for these LPS along with the term "uV" for an easier search.

That's all the time I'm going to waster here.
This!
Old 23rd September 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcB View Post
No. I shouldn't. Look at any thread in the source section and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[edit] ha ha, just realised you're one of them that's why you have you knickers in a twist. oh well.
I see it took near 3 whole days for the sound to open up after you "tinkered" with your USB port ha ha



No. You threw the line that it sounded better with an LPS so I've asked you for to supply some evidence that spending £250+ on a LPS replacement for the wall wart brings audible improvements. Post some level matched recording from the sources main outputs with the LPS in and out.
If this huge improvement disappears due to the ADC conversion then the improvement isn't really that large or worth having in the first place is it?





Ha ha, computer audiophile gets a mention. But did they use the £500 USB cables or place the device on those £200 each magic stability pebbles during these tests?



Of course it is. How dare someone question your purchase advice and ask you to back up your claims on an open forum?
I'm with you on this, i have some friends into £25 mains fuses and £150 "kettle" mains leads but they will NEVER EVER let me ABX test them so they can show me how they can consistantly pick out the "day and night" difference.

There are words that come to mind, but as it's a public forum :-)

I have an Avocet and HEDD 192 and I'm pretty sure Dave Hill has designed them to run perfectly on good old common a garden "mains" ... well they sound utterly fantastic so he obviously got something right!
Old 23rd September 2017
  #19
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Yes, Dave Hill can make it work fine on anything. It's probably because he takes into account things that other people wouldn't think made any difference:

He mentions this within the first minute of this short interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcJigc27p6w

I had no idea that the merits of well designed low noise linear power supplies would be in question at the "high-end" forum, especially in comparison to generic SMPS. Comparing two well made LPS with similar specs and saying there is a difference would draw skepticism, but when comparing things with "1-200 uV" of noise in those LPS against those much noisier SMPS that can hover around 1mV +/-

Search with the terms "linear power supply" "uV" "mV" "noise" "ripple"...It's all there.

Another manufacturer that's well established in the pro and hi-fi world is Bryston. Linear power supplies in everything. You'll find enough comments from the Bryston team on this subject.

Mods should move this topic to the low-end forum.
Old 23rd September 2017
  #20
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Slug1's Avatar
Nothing low end about Dangerous Source or Avocet. Your points about LPS are totally fine and have been discussed before regarding Source. No need to downgrade the relevance of the thread because someone wants to bicker with you. I'm enjoying the other comments regarding these and other similar tools.
Old 26th September 2017
  #21
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coley View Post
Having been building passive & active monitor controllers for 20 years now I disagree with some of the opinions stated here.
A passive level control doesn't load the input unless you have the 600 transformer or if you have speaker cables at +40 feet, this is true. Coleman Audio monitor controllers even tho they are passive have a 10K input impedance so no loading of the input signal. Because the units are passive there is no noise added from a power supply. Even tho this noise is very low it can be heard by any one who has ever A/B'ed an active VS passive device (not just mine). An active unit no matter how good the electronics will add noise and color the signal it just can't be helped.
The passive device does not what you put in comes out, period. I have done very extensive tests on this they are flat beyond 50K. We only hear between 20htz & 20Khrtz but some times there are frequencies that are felt rather than heard. This point I'm sure can be argued but I believe it's more than just the noise an active unit adds that makes the difference. Many products have very good electronics including some of my active units but if you are going for the cleanest representation of your audio signal a passive unit will sound better. IMHO
just saying
Old 26th September 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcB View Post
Downside for the source is:-

USB (XMOS) ASIO latency is locked at something like 22ms @ 44khz so too high to use as your dedicated audio interface if you play VST instruments.
I'm on a Mac. Goes down to 2.97ms here for a 64 sample buffer size @ 44khz. No problems playing VSTs for me. Very happy with the unit overall.
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