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Vintage Reverbs, Delays & Tape Echos Anyone? Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 16th March 2016
  #91
Lives for gear
 

Lexicon PCM-42 and Internet Mytholgy Still Strong in 2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shy View Post
First of all, it's more common. Also, PCM 42 has an optical limiter that was added after realizing most guitarists think 11 is the only proper volume level and thus weren't satisfied by the excessive distortion they were getting with the 41. It can be used to significantly affect the delay envelope, and for other tricks. Regardless of the limiter difference, PCM 41 doesn't sound just like the 42 (even when the 42's limiter isn't triggered), it has a darker, different overall sound.
Actually in most Lexicon devices that use Limiting, the PCM-42 uses the Clarix Opto Isolaters which many midi units use (Opto Isolaters are needed in midi) the reason was not just guitarists hitting 11 on the dial though it was a frequency response design enabling a higher SNR Ratio and lower distortion in the overall Quality 16 kHz sound as the PrimeTime 93 & PCM 41 were released at the same time, with later the Prime Time 93 for Road and 41 for Studios, (See old Pat Metheny Trade Advertisments) still the later M200, Prime Time MKII 95 & Super Prime Time 97 all had limiting inside as Clarix parts (Now no longer made and of a different Opto design to others) making the PCM-42 close to redundant for Andy Wallace Myth Tricks, and more so if the Clarix Opto Isolators are blown and the 42 doesn't Null at nought Delay Settings!

PCM-42 NOS Clarix Opto Isolator stock is rare As Rocking Horse Sh*t, save EBay and even then! Who knows if your $90 buck opto's (you'll need 3) even Work?

The PCM 42's routing scheme allow the Opto to act as a Limiting device, which is a "Soft Knee Limiter at 5:1" and really it only comes into play at certain levels, and tied into a daughter board with the bargraph display metering, at 0dB there is NO LIMITING AT ALL whatsoever and the Clarix Opto actually follows a circuit in the PCM 42's metering circuit, the reason for this is much like Companding/ Expansion. The PCM 42's Meter circuit triggers the Limiter to only come in when the Conversion from PCM is threatened - so with no Reneration or Recirculation, nor Clocking nor VCO nor Delay time......?

THE PCM-42 does NOT DO LIMITING AT ALL!

So - Think about this, at +8 or close to +10dBm (Pretty Hot Signal in dBv) the PCM-42 is just starting to Limit, even then at a 5:1 Ratio, that is about as Soft as possibly could be as to not interfere with the DAC Conversion into Analog Ouput Signal. (Think of a Summit TLA 50 on Slow Mode with 6:1 ratio and the Threshold just ever gently moving the metre - 2 dB's as the metre reading -2dBm - to - +8 dBm) and the roll of slope is not that sharp unless you filter?

Even if you were hitting the PCM-42 meters at Full Level, you Still Get Distortion and it's that Nasy Digital Hash junk people loathed on Black Face Adats - Though Hang on.......? In a PCM-42 its sheer Heaven? Nope it's Myth! (Same thing IMHO)

"The Andy Wallace Trick you say"

Well I apologise, though you can Hit up YouTube and see Andy Wallace clearly (In a Mixing with the Masters Retreat for Students when asked simply stating he never used this trick....more so, he used a PCM-42 as it was the delay closest) to the Track to Patch In. So why are PCM 42's suddenly being sold at $1800 bucks from Vintage King, to $2,300 on EBay!

Internet Mythology - It's as simple as that. People fiddle around and try stuff out, and great, experimenting with Audio gear can create Magic, though in this instance it's simply not True!

There are actually 2 Reasons the PCM-42 and PrimeTime MKII are revered, and it's because they not only have the largest MEO ( Or Memory Expansion Boards) that in those days could hold close 16 seconds of Audio Delay minus Recirculation or Regen Repeats, and they clocked to CV/Gate Drum Machines in Intervals of 8/12/16/24/48 etc and this meant in a non Midi world were DCB from Roland and other timing pulses from E-MU to LINN to Korg and Roland and Oberhiem to SC could sync to these Lexicon Delays.

Part 2 of the reason was the Repeat Button was now on the front of both Lexicon Delays (The PCM-41 Repeat buttons on the back) and Bob Sellon had worked out a way where a PCM-42 /Prime Time could be reversed (42's being easiest) add to this the fact that Bob Sellon made a Daughter Board making the PCM-42 up to 32 seconds long in mono and it could be a Looper or wired in Reverse!

Ahhh...now we are getting so where long Reverse Delays, even though some units from Eventide could just manage, the PCM-42 was better to many though Studios such as Capitol had Racks of 8 X PCM-42 delay Units with the Top 4 being Forward and extended MEO and the bottom 4 Reverse and MEO expanded.

So greatly demanded were a Forwards and Backwards X 2 PCM-42 and Studios (with Freelance Engineers) were the ones whom with 2 units usually kept one of each, the other trick here was even though the MEO boards moded by many though of note by Bob Sellons PCM-42 Modifications could add 32 seconds, the Delay screen could not show this so BPM charts & Delay times were kept close on hand for 1/4, 1/3 1/8 and 16/32 note semi and triplets etc.

Now Remember Back in this time, 4164 Dram boards and Modifications cost nearly 5 times the unit alone I fact a PCM-42 with normal retail MEO expansion was near $395 and up extra, add that to the $899 price in 1983/4 and you can now Imagine how a 224 was so expensive at $7800 let alone a PCM-60 at $2,600 Dollars $USD.

Internet Mythology - It can sure be a painful lesson to learn!
Old 16th March 2016
  #92
Shy
Lives for gear
 

Wow, that was almost 6 years ago . "Myths" etc., yes, tons of them. But all the technical stuff aside, I'd say the real reason to buy something like PCM-42 today is not the delay time / memory or whatever, it's just the sound. Those old delay units that use ancient converters and get the delay through multiple conversions and weird analog stages, just have a nice sound. There are early delay units that have a nice lo-fi sound at long decay, which cost a fraction of what a PCM-42 costs, like SDD-2000, SDE-2000, SDE-1000. Not the same sound, less features, but good stuff, if you just need a plain old-school delay line.

A trick: recording the same SDD-2000 twice with exactly the same settings never gives exactly the same delay, even when modulation is off ("0"). There's always some very subtle (imperceivable) modulation. If you pan each recording to one channel, you get a nice stereo effect. It can't be simulated with non-funky units, including Sony D7, H8000, KSP8, and whatever other fancy newer unit that has 0.0001ms accuracy (I've tried building algorithms to simulate this, but can't get around the too obvious signal cancellation). So that's one reason I'd use something like that instead of a much "higher fidelity" processor, because it's messed up in a musically useful way.
Old 17th March 2016
  #93
Lives for gear
 

Ibanez UE series is awesome. a rack version of their best stomp boxes. ( i have a 405, good comp/delay/chorus ).

MXR Pitch Transposer for doubles and harmonies ( wacky 4 way preset capacitance switches ).

ADA Pitchraq is similarly bizarre.

But My fave pitch shifter is Deltalab DL-5 ( a true new england oddity! ).

Roland RE 555 / 501 is / are amazeballs.

Amdek effects are oldschool boss / roland as kits... ( i have a dmk 100 that is awesome fun ).

DBX 100/120 is the best sub harmonic generator i've heard ( it's weird and very reactive ( get the old wood panel one it's cooler ).

EML200 is a poor man's Arp 2600 but has 2!!! ring mods, 1 spring tank, stereo 6x2 mixer, and much more!



z
Old 18th March 2016
  #94
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shy View Post
Wow, that was almost 6 years ago . "Myths" etc., yes, tons of them. But all the technical stuff aside, I'd say the real reason to buy something like PCM-42 today is not the delay time / memory or whatever, it's just the sound. Those old delay units that use ancient converters and get the delay through multiple conversions and weird analog stages, just have a nice sound. There are early delay units that have a nice lo-fi sound at long decay, which cost a fraction of what a PCM-42 costs, like SDD-2000, SDE-2000, SDE-1000. Not the same sound, less features, but good stuff, if you just need a plain old-school delay line.

A trick: recording the same SDD-2000 twice with exactly the same settings never gives exactly the same delay, even when modulation is off ("0"). There's always some very subtle (imperceivable) modulation. If you pan each recording to one channel, you get a nice stereo effect. It can't be simulated with non-funky units, including Sony D7, H8000, KSP8, and whatever other fancy newer unit that has 0.0001ms accuracy (I've tried building algorithms to simulate this, but can't get around the too obvious signal cancellation). So that's one reason I'd use something like that instead of a much "higher fidelity" processor, because it's messed up in a musically useful way.
Totally agree with you here, and my "Myth" post was due to these Bizzare $2000 buck PCM 42 prices, though as you were saying, those old Korg Delays are diamonds especially with the Direct -> Plus + > - <Minus outputs, that's three outputs to throw into a console or whatever and get the most Funky Reso flange and weird delay stuff, I've got the 2000, 1100 and 1000 and I can see people moving to those - just dial in, and whack out comes badly converted magic, even for bit splitting at 6-8khz those delays are worth that price of admission alone, few others do it for $100 bucks so damn well! And as you've said, try as you may, no H8000 or 960L or TC6000 one or two models can do that stuff, for looping the sdd-2000 at 4096 milliseconds alone is huge fun! The Seq/Trig/Sample seems to muddle with most people and RTFM on anything over the 1000 is a must! Try same setting twice.....never works? Odd huh!

TLB
Old 18th March 2016
  #95
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewAllianceEast! View Post
Ibanez UE series is awesome. a rack version of their best stomp boxes. ( i have a 405, good comp/delay/chorus ).

MXR Pitch Transposer for doubles and harmonies ( wacky 4 way preset capacitance switches ).

ADA Pitchraq is similarly bizarre.

But My fave pitch shifter is Deltalab DL-5 ( a true new england oddity! ).

Roland RE 555 / 501 is / are amazeballs.

Amdek effects are oldschool boss / roland as kits... ( i have a dmk 100 that is awesome fun ).

DBX 100/120 is the best sub harmonic generator i've heard ( it's weird and very reactive ( get the old wood panel one it's cooler ).

EML200 is a poor man's Arp 2600 but has 2!!! ring mods, 1 spring tank, stereo 6x2 mixer, and much more!



z
Great picture, damn I'd love an old DeltaLab shifter, they sold thousands and were either junked or are sitting in cupboards somewhere unloved, don't come up on eBay nor vintage sites, so no idea,vthough in bang for the 1980's delay, shift, flange and whacky effects - they sold truckloads, some people say it was the -10dbV that killed them off.....no idea why, most where not standard +4dBm so? Wonder what gives?
Old 18th March 2016
  #96
Lives for gear
 
the fxs's Avatar
 

i have just bought a pair of Deltalab Effectron Jr.'s .
haven't had the chance to fully explore them, but a quick test on vocals and synth got me impressed.
Old 18th March 2016
  #97
Lives for gear
 

I'm in Boston so there was always tons of Deltalab Delays in studio and venue racks.

U mass lowell had the pitch transposer DL-5 in every studio back in the day.

It was a go to for all things weird!



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
Great picture, damn I'd love an old DeltaLab shifter, they sold thousands and were either junked or are sitting in cupboards somewhere unloved, don't come up on eBay nor vintage sites, so no idea,vthough in bang for the 1980's delay, shift, flange and whacky effects - they sold truckloads, some people say it was the -10dbV that killed them off.....no idea why, most where not standard +4dBm so? Wonder what gives?
Old 19th March 2016
  #98
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Hamburg58's Avatar
 

I just bought a PCM90 and PCM70 in the last week. Have always had 2 EMT 140's and a Lexicon 224. I'll have to say the PCM's changed my life as of late. The 90 really added something that I never have had with the Plates, 224 or any plugins. These reverbs have a beautiful way of cutting through mixes.

I bought the PCM70 from Tony Maserati!
Old 19th March 2016
  #99
Lives for gear
To me, current goodies out there are:
Lexicon 96
biscotti
TCE M6000, I use an M5000 as my main reverb, outobard EQ, MD decoder, and good compressor.
The TCE stomp box chorus is awesome. Going stomp box format give you another set of options.

The Eventide stuff sound cool

Other things: The Pod line offers use full effects with easy to use knobs.
Old 19th March 2016
  #100
Lives for gear
 
string6theory's Avatar
I went the vintage & modern classic route with my BIG 4

H3000 D/SE
Orville
PCM-92
M7

And, I use my Korg SDD-2000 just for the above mentioned + - multi-output of trippy delays! Very cool honorable mention!

A well maintained Roland 501 or 555 is sweet too, esp for guitars.

Hey, I'm down with Sound Toys for way smooth sound-sculpting plugin delay bundle. ITB classic

Old 19th March 2016
  #101
Lives for gear
 
Rumi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
To me, current goodies out there are:
Lexicon 96
biscotti
TCE M6000, I use an M5000 as my main reverb, outobard EQ, MD decoder, and good compressor.
The TCE stomp box chorus is awesome. Going stomp box format give you another set of options.

The Eventide stuff sound cool

Other things: The Pod line offers use full effects with easy to use knobs.
Does that mean you prefer the M5000 over the System 6000?

I always avoided PODs. They always sounded muddy, thick and undefined, and clogged the mix without being heard, both live and in the studio. But maybe they have improved them now?
Old 19th March 2016
  #102
Lives for gear
M5000 vs M6000. The M6000 costs over $6K, the M5000 can be had for a bit over $1k used on ebay.

That's a matter of cash. if you look at the M5000, make sure it has the MD2 option for the multi band compressor. Most units will only have pair of XLR ins and outs. Also, remote controls are hard to find. With the older M5000 running internally at 48K/44.1, even if it has digital connection, it will likley be hooked up analog with a 96K+ system

The only downfall of the units is lag. Say to take overheads and run them through the compressor. The additional time for AD/DA and processing does introduce some delay to the signal since the box is basically a PC. The good side is best TCE programming went into the M5000 and M6000 units. Many big studios have taken them out of service as a mastering piece, but leave them hooked up as reverb.
Old 10th May 2016
  #103
Gear Maniac
 

I have 2 ibanez ue405 and one is buggy as hell. Sometimes going all mad when delay or compressor is active. Not sure why..
i love the dynacord vrs 23. Sweet sweet box. The reverb is crazy good.
Yamaha r1000 too really decent sound.
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