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Nicerizer/Tonelux/ITB level-matched comp Studio Monitors
Old 7th June 2006
  #91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Not for 98% of the people who would "buy" it. They don't give a ****.
Really?? 98%? You have some statistical analysis do you? Please share with the group.
Old 7th June 2006
  #92
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bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
How can there be over a thousand views yet just a handful of opinions. I promise there is no embarrassing wrong answer here. I mixed these and even I'm having a hard time hearing the differences clearly. I'm just hoping to get more responses to look for some statistical consistency.

Thanks for playing,
R
Seriously I dont understand why people are afraid to say what THEY hear.Ofcourse I understand that there is an issue say if Gil(who has posted above and interestingly hasnt given his preference) says he likes the A and A in both sets, and that turns to be ITB..with what face would he sell the Tonelux system.
I think I know what people are afraid of:

1.Pro ITB folks picking OTB mix (or)saying there is no difference
2.pro OTB folks picking a ITB mix (or)saying there is no difference

RKrizman,

I listened to the Blues set on my home monitors.On a blind test I was not able to differentiate between the clips.By sonic comparison I was able to differenciate the clips but not by sonic memory.Preference A,B,C.In both sets B&C seems to be the same summing process(analog??)
I'll try to explain the difference between sonic comparison and sonic memory.In the mic shootout done by James Lugo I was always able to pick the Brauner KHE and the SM7 by sonic memory - that is if I took a break and came back I was able to identify the clip from memory, blind.
IMO,identifiable from sonic memory means character and clips which can be differentiated by sonic comparison can be eq'ed to match one with the other.

All this said-I am not ITB or OTB ....just in pursuit of sonic excellence
Old 7th June 2006
  #93
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GYang's Avatar
Great samples, but absolutely out of genre I'm usually doing.
In this respect opinion can be biased toward what I like to hear more than what is better.

Chicken Wings

A and C - translate emotions, mids (sax) are better that B
B - in some parts more precise sounding, but overall less lively

If I must to choose, here is ranking A, C, B.

Blues

C- balanced sound, cleaner mids, I like guitar here more than on others
A- better perception of low end (which I don't like on any of 3 tracks)
B- something is slightly missing in mids, emotions space

Tough choice, but C, A, B.

Again it's kind of classy, may I say softer sound, where most likely ITB can have some benefits. I found that on some acoustic materials I get great results ITB, too.

I didn't read other's opinions to avoid any kind of suggestion and it was quadruple blind test with two high-end monitors sets (K+H and PMC).

Next opinion please !
Old 7th June 2006
  #94
I'm just sitting in front of my homecomputer and have hifispeakers here.. so no judgement from big George.

Quote:
Not for 98% of the people who would "buy" it. They don't give a ****.
I seriously give a ****!! and not from people with PC-speakers telling you, what they didnt heard, more from guys like MR. F. or Mr. G.. and people who worked with it.

so common, calm down and let the reviews typed here on GS..

cheers
Old 7th June 2006
  #95
Jax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilWave
Really?? 98%? You have some statistical analysis do you? Please share with the group.
You're simply an assmunch.
Old 7th June 2006
  #96
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GYang's Avatar
Guys, please share your opinions related to the topic.

So many requests on GS for samples and than just lurking and waiting to see final results.
And than all kind of debates begin.
Empty rethoric without empirical results is pretty worthless, so spend some time and say your word.
Old 7th June 2006
  #97
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
Not for 98% of the people who would "buy" it. They don't give a ****.
Right, it's not their job to give a ****. Admittedly this is pretty geeky stuff, but hey, it's what the job is all about. All these little details add up to somebody either liking the music or not.

-R
Old 8th June 2006
  #98
Gear Addict
 

Here's my picks
Chicken Wings A, C, B
Blues B, C, A

It's nice trying this test with the more organic music tracks supplied here. I would think this genre would benefit the most from being the most analog. Thanks for the tracks.

All 3 are really close in my opinion on my S3A's, so much so that I can only really pick which ones I like the best. Whether they're ITB or OTB, I couldn't say as there was nothing particularly glaring in the differences. I would say that in Chicken Wings, the snare was ever so slightly smaller (less depth) in B. As for liking A over C, I couldn't really say why, it just felt better. The only difference I could point to in Blues is that the hats had just a little less air around them in A.

The minute differences here and on other tests posted really make me wonder if this external summing thing is all it's supposed to be. I recently performed a test like this with with a friend using PT HD and the Chandler Mixer. We performed the test several times blindly flipping between the two mixes and each of us picked the PT mix as our favorite 100% of the time. I don't know if this was the result of using a previous ITB mix stemed out or what. I should also mention that we both own and love Chandler gear.

One thing that is apparent is that I've gotten much more improvement from spending 3K on other gear than what I'd get from a summing box. I used to hear a big difference from my PT Mix System with Apogee converters between ITB and mixes I did on my modded Soundcraft 2400, but that difference seems to be pretty miniscule now with PTHD, especially at 96K. I think most of the improvements would be due to analog processing over the plug ins. It's definitly easier mixing on a console, though.

Waiting for the results to see what my ears tell me.

Kenny M.
Old 8th June 2006
  #99
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ok just heard them through procontrol/S3As/ BM15As w/sub and DA 16X.

on the laptop i liked A best for chicken wings. in the studio i can't remember if it was B or C but it wasn't A. the blues files i found too similar on the laptop to even comment. in the studio i think i liked B the best by an ever so slight margin.

bottom line they were so close i think the difference is negligible. maybe some slight thing in the stereo image and some extra umph/depth, but nothing real noteworthy. in roundbadges test the differences where huge compared to this, but i don't think he did the level to within .1dB thing. imo these were very much closer - specially the blues files.

when i posted some files of different pres with male vox (to within .1 dB) on the germanium thread, some people thought i'd posted the same file 5 times, so i'm not too surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny M
The minute differences here and on other tests posted really make me wonder if this external summing thing is all it's supposed to be.
i use folcrom/flamingo, and just ordered a pair of SH gamas to try at the end of the folcrom for different sounds, and to use outboard without having to go back ITB. the 'bad math' issue is moot for me though.

Quote:
I recently performed a test like this with a friend using PT HD and the Chandler Mixer. We performed the test several times blindly flipping between the two mixes and each of us picked the PT mix as our favorite 100% of the time. I don't know if this was the result of using a previous ITB mix stemed out or what. I should also mention that we both own and love Chandler gear.
imho if you have an existing mix you like and then go to a summer or console, the result will be different than mixing through the summer/console from the start.

FWIW i love chandler gear too, and i think a nice console like the tonelux could be awesome for a certain tone, EQs, comps when they come out, sends and outboard efx returns, but not for the bad math summing thing.

thanks alot mr. RKrizman for posting those files.
Old 8th June 2006
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax
You're simply an assmunch.
Ouch. You really got me there.
Old 8th June 2006
  #101
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Casey's Avatar
 

Blues A,C,B

I liked how the reverb layed in on A the best.

Since the reverb is printed, perhaps the signal paths represented the tails slightly differently, at least to my ears.

Nice samples, thanks!
Old 8th June 2006
  #102
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abit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
The choices are Nicerizer, Tonelux, or ITB, in random order. What do you think?
Without looking to the chicken eyes(to the end of the thread) :

A - relaxed one - good to me. Less highs and I like that.
B- noop. Tention.
C- less favorable out of 3. More tension.

And for blues same thing, but in opposite order:
CBA

puter champaign speakers with sub.


PS
And my guess would be
A- NR
B- TL
C- ITB
Old 8th June 2006
  #103
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey
Blues A,C,B

I liked how the reverb layed in on A the best.

Since the reverb is printed, perhaps the signal paths represented the tails slightly differently, at least to my ears.

Nice samples, thanks!
FWIW, on the "Blues" sample I didn't print the reverb or delays. I can't imagine that that would matter unless you were trying to null them.

I mean, has anyone ever said "Let's print another mix, I didn't like the way the reverbs and delays laid on that one"?

-R
Old 8th June 2006
  #104
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True, true, I listen to reverb tails all day in my work, so just trying to give that perspective.

One question, on Blues was the wet/dry path ever split, in other words is the predelay the same on all 3 samples?
Old 8th June 2006
  #105
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey
is the predelay the same on all 3 samples?
Yes.

-R
Old 8th June 2006
  #106
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abit's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bit mangler
I understand that there is an issue say if Gil(who has posted above and interestingly hasnt given his preference) says he likes the A
hileriouse!
heh heh heh

RKrizman!
Old 8th June 2006
  #107
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bit mangler
Ofcourse I understand that there is an issue say if Gil(who has posted above and interestingly hasnt given his preference) says he likes the A and A in both sets, and that turns to be ITB..with what face would he sell the Tonelux system.
This is not some all comprehensive test, and Gil really doesn't know me from Adam.
We're not baiting the dealers here, and personally I'd prefer that dealers and manufacturers don't even post an opinion. Gil knows what the stuff sounds like, but really, anybody could be fooled in a test like this and be made to unfairly look bad, so let's not try to make this more than what it is--a chance for you to listen to a few different boxes in a very finite situation, FWIW. (Like a Lynn Fuston CD, only free.)

-R
Old 8th June 2006
  #108
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abit's Avatar
 

Reasonable comment of yours, sir.
Old 8th June 2006
  #109
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Right, it's not their job to give a ****. Admittedly this is pretty geeky stuff, but hey, it's what the job is all about. All these little details add up to somebody either liking the music or not.

-R
Rick I read only the first page ... and am listening on a laptop...

I guess B is the Nicer, A is ITB and C is Tone.
Old 8th June 2006
  #110
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thermos's Avatar
My guess is that you used the same order for both examples. I think its
A-itb
B-Nicerizer
C-Tonelux
Thats just based on what the differences were on Roundbadges shootout. I've never used the Nicerizer or the Tonelux (I use D2b). I think I liked C the best on both (low end mostly), though they all sound pretty similar. I think the reverb tails of the b and c mixes are different and more pleasing, especially the reverb tale of the blues on example b.
But at the end of the day, I'm always wrong about these summing tests. I probably will end up having prefferred the itb mixes. I was monitoring through Lynx Aurora and JBL LSR28-Ps.
Old 8th June 2006
  #111
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RoundBadge's Avatar
I'm in the desert this week recording sound effects and dialog 12 hours a day ..so my ears are kinda fried.
i've heard chicken wings on my laptop..My pref's so far are A,C,B..
I'l try to check the Blues clips tommorow..hopefully get back in town and listen to everything on my rig [PT-192/Adams] before Rick posts the answers
Thanks Rick.. always good to get another perspective thumbsup
Old 8th June 2006
  #112
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Kris's Avatar
A stood out a bit to me... Haven't listened in the studio though.
Old 8th June 2006
  #113
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from chicken wings....

A was kinda crisper (is that a word?) and seemed a little less controlled...
B was smooth and "evenish"...i liked this one the best
C had more bottom endy type things going on but it seemed a little un-exciting (i would say "flat" but its not totally what i would mean)

A sounded more different than B and C (they were much more similar to each other) so i guess that A was ITB but i don't have much in the way of experience with these things...and on first listen i kinda liked A *ducks* but after listening a few more times i liked the way B worked and figured listening to a mix a year or so after i would like B's kinda results more...but thanks a ton for doing this test....as i live on the far side of the world opurtunities to check these kind of things out are virtually non-existent. So kudos to you!
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Old 8th June 2006
  #114
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shame
i couldn't post a thumbs up giff...dork
Old 8th June 2006
  #115
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u b k's Avatar
 

well i hope the results don't get posted before this weekend, i'd like to get into the studio and give these a listen and can't get there before then.

it's tests like these that really make me miss my lsr28p's, they made it so damn easy to hear the differences between productions.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 8th June 2006
  #116
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k

it's tests like these that really make me miss my lsr28p's, they made it so damn easy to hear the differences between productions.
gregoire
del ubik
don't expect it to be very easy anyway
Old 8th June 2006
  #117
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
well i hope the results don't get posted before this weekend, i'd like to get into the studio and give these a listen and can't get there before then.

it's tests like these that really make me miss my lsr28p's, they made it so damn easy to hear the differences between productions.


gregoire
del ubik
I've got those as well and I love them. Great "feel the groove" speakers.

I'll probably post the answers tomorrow (Friday), so just don't read the thread until Monday.

-R
Old 9th June 2006
  #118
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I have a handful of ideas about the three versions of "Chicken Wing", but articulating them is more difficult than telling someone about a dream you had three nights ago. You end up making stuff up in order to give it a narrative that goes beyond "A man with a cup was staring at me. All of the sudden I was on a horse. The horse made me a latte."

A had more "detailed bass"?!

B was "thinner, brighter"?!

C was somewhere in the middle, and maybe had a "blurrier stereo image"?!

Then B made me a latte.

Seriously. Repeated listening only seemed to refute clumsy first impressions. Then came the horrible "outsmarting myself" phase. Even quickly changing between the files didn't help. ANY thought whatsoever that entered my head concerning the pure sensory experience of HEARING THE SOUNDS was totally distracting. These kinds of tests PISS ME OFF, because it always seems like there's a bunch of jerkwads mumbling in my Cartesian theater while I'm trying to enjoy the show.
Old 9th June 2006
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymatt
These kinds of tests PISS ME OFF, because it always seems like there's a bunch of jerkwads mumbling in my Cartesian theater while I'm trying to enjoy the show.
great image. i was doing a fair bit of outsmarting myself tonight. i rarely succeed...
Old 9th June 2006
  #120
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Cojo's Avatar
 

It's fun to read peoples comments about the different tracks. What one says sounds detailed some might say it's blurry etc. How come?

Just a thought, nevermind! Keep on voting!

/Cojo
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