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Nicerizer/Tonelux/ITB level-matched comp Studio Monitors
Old 6th June 2006
  #31
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GL Respect Due
Lets see the results - the last 10 replies are more or less the same. I don't suspect anyone else is going to contribute a response that requires us wait longer for the results! heh
They haven't even been up for a day. I'd love to hear from Gyang or Roundbadge or the other guys who have been pushing this summing issue. If you really can't stand the suspense, PM me and I'll let you know.

I did quite a few tests while I had the gear here and could post some more files if anyone is interested.

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #32
B

Hay

I think B is the best one ,A is OK and C sounds almost out of balance to me.

RH
Old 6th June 2006
  #33
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thenoiseflower's Avatar
 

Definetly post more files!!!!


I would like to hear the peonix and the tonelux pushed very hard !!!


thanks!
Old 6th June 2006
  #34
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yes, i would also love to hear some more files.

i am impressed that whichever the itb is that is sounds as close to the others as it does.

if i had to choose a fav it would be B. A seems a little thinner in general.

it is really not that easy to tell them apart tho.

was this tracked to tape or digital?
Old 6th June 2006
  #35
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
was this tracked to tape or digital?
Tracked to digital, mostly AD-8000.

(OT, one cool thing about this session was we used an NS-10 woofer as a mic infront of the kit which dialed up some warmth for the whole event. The nice thing about recording digital was that that low end was captured almost perfectly so when it was mixed in there were no weird bumps or resonances.)

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoiseflower
I would like to hear the peonix and the tonelux pushed very hard !!!


thanks!
I boosted the PT output stems 9 db before I sent them out the converters to the boxes. This way I maximized my bit output and hit the boxes square in the nuts. Any harder and I would have clipped my converters coming back into PT. Didn't want that to be a sonic factor.

To me it's not about stressing the gear to make your snare fatter. It's about good quality analog sound and correct gain-staging.

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #37
Gear Nut
 

OK.


For me personally the sax and snare 'speak' less in B.

I would say

A : Tone/Nice

B : ITB

C : Tone/Nice


A pips it for me, I really hope A is ITB as it would solve my current 'Shall I test some summing boxes issue'.

If B is ITB I won't be surprised. If its OTB I think the convertor/summing box money would have been better spent on another purchace (A Monette perhaps )




'It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing' Duke Ellington
Old 6th June 2006
  #38
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Thieves
I would say

A : Tone/Nice

B : ITB

A : Tone/Nice
C ?

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #39
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Okay, here's 3 more. The first files are called "Chicken Wings", these are called "Blues", for the purpose of discussion. Seems to make sense to put all this in the same thread.

Please withhold posting until I get all three uploaded, so they are together

-R
Attached Files

Blues A.wav (5.09 MB, 790 views)

Old 6th June 2006
  #40
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
C ?

-R

.....well spotted that man !!!


edited
Old 6th June 2006
  #41
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Here's the second "Blues" mix
Attached Files

Blues B.wav (5.09 MB, 800 views)

Old 6th June 2006
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Here's the second "Blues" mix
Hey Rick.... maybe calle these files D, E and F? That way the voting is easier to tally?
Old 6th June 2006
  #43
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

And here's the third "Blues" mix.
Attached Files

Blues C.wav (5.09 MB, 724 views)

Old 6th June 2006
  #44
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
Hey Rick.... maybe calle these files D, E and F? That way the voting is easier to tally?
Too late. The first set is "Chicken Wings", this set is "Blues".

"Blues" was recorded at my own place, with much more leakage, a variety of preamps, into AD-8000 and HD 192. The live basic track is drums, DI bass, miced amp guitar and B-3 w Leslie. The trumpet (Lee Thorenberg) is an overdub into a Royer/DRS-2.

The levels are again tone-matched. However, this time I'm outputting from an AD-8000 D/A and am not raising the levels of the stems, so it's fairly conservative levels, i.e. not hitting the transformers very hard. It's unity gain in and out of the boxes. Then in PT, like last time, I raised the BTD levels with an L1 plugin, with virtually no limiting.

Enjoy. If you wish, I have some erhu tracks I can post tomorrow.

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #45
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EDIT -- Second set of tracks

this is much closer in sound than chicken wings, i feel i like all of these for smaller reasons

a, c, b

a is more open, i kind of think this is ITB, and i still like it
b has nice high end but the lows seem thicker than the others, nicerizer?
c, nice smootheness and less exposing room/verb details than the others, but the nigh end is still present, tonelux?


im really sweatin' these results
Old 6th June 2006
  #46
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
DO NOT READ THIS POST UNLESS YOU HAVE ALREADY VOTED PLEASE!!!! If you have not voted just take 5 minutes to listen to the files and post your results first so the count below does not skew your ranking.

Okay so I am interested in the voting so far so I did a little adding up of the numbers here. First do not hold me to the numbers I added up, some folks did not say what they liked at all, some did not give an order only that they liked one better than the others etc. and my count could be off.
Michael, I'd really prefer that you don't do this. Your tally makes it seem like there is a more clear diffference than what people reported, and miscasts this as an A vs. B thread. I'm presenting this so people can draw their own conclusions. I don't think your tally is statistically significant, in light of how so many people professed diffficulty in hearing a difference at all. You, for instance! (how about testing yourself on these and then expressing a preference).

If you want to do a real tally, then anyone who votes should mix these files up, listen and state their preferences. Then they should scramble them and do it a second time. Then a third. Then see if their own results are consistent. Then they'll have a valid vote.

Thanks,
R
Old 6th June 2006
  #47
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoiseflower
this is much closer in sound, i feel i like all of these for smaller reasons

a, c, b

a is more open, i kind of think this is ITB, and i still like it
b has nice high end but the lows seem thicker than the others, nicerizer?
c, nice smootheness and less exposing room/verb details than the others, but the nigh end is still present, tonelux?


im really sweatin' these results
I assume you're referring to the "Blues" track. If everyone identifies the track they are discussing it will keep things more clear.

Thanks,
-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Michael, I'd really prefer that you don't do this. Your tally makes it seem like there is a more clear diffference than what people reported, and miscasts this as an A vs. B thread. I'm presenting this so people can draw their own conclusions. I don't think your tally is statistically significant, in light of how so many people professed diffficulty in hearing a difference at all. You, for instance! (how about testing yourself on these and then expressing a preference).

If you want to do a real tally, then anyone who votes should mix these files up, listen and state their preferences. Then they should scramble them and do it a second time. Then a third. Then see if their own results are consistent. Then they'll have a valid vote.

Thanks,
R
Fair enough, deleted.......

Old 6th June 2006
  #49
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Cojo's Avatar
 

Much harder this time, but I think A is ITB the next two I'm not really sure about but I think B sounds best.

Blues A = ITB
Blues B = Nicerizer
Blues C = Tonelux


/Cojo
Old 6th June 2006
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
If you want to do a real tally, then anyone who votes should mix these files up, listen and state their preferences. Then they should scramble them and do it a second time. Then a third. Then see if their own results are consistent. Then they'll have a valid vote.
I think this is a critical point, the equivalent of double-blind testing. You should come to the same conclusions all three times, then you have a valid sample.

-gil
Old 6th June 2006
  #51
Gear Nut
 

REF : BLUES


Firstly...

Couldn't concentrate as that horn player is SICK. Must have been a joy to record him (or her!)

After a few listens nodding my head to the horn player I started listening to the sonics and...

Very Tough.


If I knew which was which I don't think I could call it in a blind test 3 out of 3.

Pushed I'd say

A ITB
B Tone/Nice
C Tone/Nice

Preference:

C
B
A
Old 6th June 2006
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GilWave
I think this is a critical point, the equivalent of double-blind testing. You should come to the same conclusions all three times, then you have a valid sample.

-gil
Here's what I do. I put all three files into Protools. The names of the files will be in the regions, so I close the edit page. On the mix page I hide the list of tracks on the upper left, then pull up the bottom of the window until it mostly covers the names of the tracks, leaving just enough at the top so I can grab them with the mouse and drag their positions left and right randomly to shuffle them up. Also, I choose "no input" on the tracks, so the default input assignments don't differ (identifying the tracks). Then I put a piece of tape over the display on my C24, hit play and solo back and forth. I play with them until I come to some sort of conclusion, write it down, then open the edit window to see which was which.

Rinse and repeat.

Rinse and repeat.

Everybody should do this, using your studio monitors, loud and soft, stereo and mono. You'll definitely learn something about the nature of your own perceptions.

(I once discovered that it seemed like the finger I used to hit the solo button was affecting which track I liked the best.)

"Nature abhors a vacuum".

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #53
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i liked A, B and C (in that order) of 'chicken wings'. laptop spkrs.
Old 6th June 2006
  #54
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interesting, in the first nice/tone/ITB test from roundbadge the differences was much more clear. this one is much harder to keep apart. maybe summing is more important at rock-levels...
Old 6th June 2006
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shangoe
interesting, in the first nice/tone/ITB test from roundbadge the differences was much more clear. this one is much harder to keep apart. maybe summing is more important at rock-levels...
don't know if roundbadge level matched to within .1dB but i know when i did that with my different pres, the similarities between them was scary. there was a difference, but not as huge as i'd expected. i suspect the same thing happens here, but i did hear a difference on A,B,C of 'chicken wings' on laptop spkrs. whether real or imagined i don't know. didn't do a blind test.
Old 6th June 2006
  #56
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shangoe
interesting, in the first nice/tone/ITB test from roundbadge the differences was much more clear. this one is much harder to keep apart. maybe summing is more important at rock-levels...
In Roundbadge's test I believe he was hitting one box harder than the other, and then trimming it back.

But you might be right in thinking that in rock production stressing transformers can give you a more exciting sound.

-R
Old 6th June 2006
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
In Roundbadge's test I believe he was hitting one box harder than the other, and then trimming it back.

But you might be right in thinking that in rock production stressing transformers can give you a more exciting sound.

-R
coming out of a folcrom, when the flamingo is pushed with 'iron' in, there's a definite difference to pushing it, with no tranny.
Old 6th June 2006
  #58
Gear Addict
 
bit mangler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shangoe
interesting, in the first nice/tone/ITB test from roundbadge the differences was much more clear. this one is much harder to keep apart. maybe summing is more important at rock-levels...
I think that this proves another point..a lot lies in the hand of the mixing engineer.
RKrizman,could you please hold-off posting the results until the majority of the sluts get an opportunity to listen.That way we'll have a better sample size.gotta listen to the "blues set" now

thanks for the effort
Old 6th June 2006
  #59
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GYang's Avatar
RKrizman thanks for your time and passion to do this test for all of us.
Just one question related to both songs:

Are A, B and C in both songs in same order? (say A-ITB, B-Nice, C-Tone)

I just listened the first song for now on my home system and will do full audition tomorrow on 3 different monitors in studio.
First impression, where the hell is difference? OK, my home stereo has not such resolution as studio monitors, but I can hear differences that are smaller than I usually experience from Nicerizer vs ITB.
Can you raise input gain on all OTB summers, as it seems that they both work in their 'clean' region (what is also good capability), so we can't hear much difference compared to ITB.
I suspect that one of the reasons could be relatively low number of tracks. I usually do 24+ tracks to OTB summing and seems that more crowded mixes show significant improvement in OTB vs ITB.
The weirdest thing is that each mix has some slightly stronger and weaker points than others and very first impression didn't bring up clear favorite, what actually surprises me.
I hope that monitors will reveal more.
I would suggest to other slutzs to make their audition, too. We discuss lot of things on GS and here is very practical test that is worth more than 300 posts in other threads.
It's late here
Old 6th June 2006
  #60
Here for the gear
 

Doing a double blind test shuffling the 'Blues' wave files with their titles hidden I liked C>B>A but again the differences were like splitting hairs. Very close. Felt A had the slightly edgier signature of an ITB box.


C Tonelux
B Nicerizer
A ITB

(blues mix)
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