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Shadow Hills Equinox - Summing - Mono channels
Old 30th March 2012
  #1
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Shadow Hills Equinox - Summing - Mono channels

Apologies if this has been covered before - I tried to do a search but didn't find the answer.

I own a Shadow Hills Equinox from 2008 or 2009 - I read somewhere that when summing, inputs 25-32 are MONO.

My question is - how important is it to send out mono sources to the MONO inputs?

I only have 16 outputs from my Lynx and by default they go to the first 16 channels of the Equinox. Would it be bad to send a kick drum to, say the 3-4 pair with a bunch of other stereo drums? Or does the kick need its own mono channel?

thanks

J5
Old 1st April 2012
  #2
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bump!

Anyone?
Old 1st April 2012
  #3
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Certainly no problem working that way. If I am using a summing unit and have the option for a mono channel, usually I'll use them for voc and/or bass. Has more to do with my OCD than anything else...

Ian
Old 1st April 2012
  #4
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I got a little stereo to mono converter with my equinox...
You loose 4 channels though...
I always put vocals,bass,bassdrum and snare on those....
Old 1st April 2012
  #5
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Pgraf88's Avatar
 

Those mono inputs allow you to use mono outboard gear(eq/comp) with out things getting complicated.
Old 1st April 2012
  #6
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Ahhh - that makes total sense.

I was worried that if I didn't send the mono stuff to mono channels they'd suffer somehow.

If I'm going to process stuff externally, I usually print it back before I sum anyhow...

Thanks to everyone for your responses.
Old 20th January 2016
  #7
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I have an Equinox but never really tried the mono inputs, they're not hooked up to the patchbay right now.

Sound wise, do they make any difference at all? Do they provide a more solid center image?
I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts are.
Old 20th January 2016
  #8
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Hi there - Additional question...

I just bought a secondhand Equinox, and am trying to get convertors sorted for it. I've been contemplating the Black Lion modded Motu's, or the Modded SPL Madisons.

I wondered if you could mention which you are using? And are you all using all 32 channels?

All the best.
Sam
Old 20th January 2016
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theACEinpeACE View Post
Hi there - Additional question...

I just bought a secondhand Equinox, and am trying to get convertors sorted for it. I've been contemplating the Black Lion modded Motu's, or the Modded SPL Madisons.

I wondered if you could mention which you are using? And are you all using all 32 channels?

All the best.
Sam
Right now I'm using an Avid HD I/O analog 16x16.
Before that I was using an Apogee Symphony I/O analog 16x16.
Both different but great.

I usually send 4 to 5 stereo stems to the equinox and use the rest of my I/O for hardware inserts.

This makes me wonder, soundwise, does it really make a difference to sum with more inputs on the Equinox?
I never tested it.
Old 20th January 2016
  #10
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The summing world.

I think I can help answer some questions based of my experience using my summing mixer which is a Inward Connections Mix 690.

It has 16 channels with panning which could be used for mono or stereo depending on how you come out of protools, I noticed with mono sources like kik, Snr, bass, and vox. That coming out mono say protools output 4, it's is dead center if I have my pan knob center and that's how it should be. Now if I take the same track and come out protools output 3&4 and they are panned hard left and right it's does not sound right cause now the mono source kik, Snr, etc... Has a stereo spread to it. If I go out 3&4 with the pan pots centered, it is straight up the center but now I'm waisting an out put on my converters "Burl" and a channel on my mixer "690".

So here is the bottom line. You should use a mono source on your mono channel unless you want to A, have the stereo panned L/R effect, or B, are able to pan your summer straight up the middle and do not mind waisting a channel.

I understand that if you keep the ITB stereo output pans center it will be center mix but it's seems like a split to me and might cause a phase issue, I'm not sure

I am not familiar with the equinox so I don't know if it has pan pots, and if it does not I assume the stereo channels are panned hard L&R. So with a mono source you should use a mono channel. Especially if you want it dead center in the mix and your summing mixer does not have pan pots.

This is why they have designated mono channels. I like the IC 690 because of the panning options you are able to have 16 mono channels, 8 stereo channels, or whatever in between.

Now the question about using more of the inputs on the summer, this is a debated topic, my personal belief from my experience especially with the type of music I do, Rock N Roll, Punk, Indie, "Live instrumentation"

The more you can break out and hit good sounding electronics, opamps, X-formers, etc... The better it sounds, I have done many tests where I stemmed out 14 drum tracks to 8 channels, putting the inside kick & outside kick on channel 1, then Snr top & Snr bottom on channel 2, then took 3 toms and stemmed all three to a stereo channel 3 & 4, breaking out 14 channels down to only 8 on the summing mixer.

Then I did all 14 channels with each on it's own channel not being frugle for the test. I felt that the non frugle tracks sounded better. Again like having a track for every channel on a console.

How much of a difference someone would hear depends on a lot of things. Like how good your listening environment is, how good your monitors & converters are, your ears, etc...

Another thing that should be taken into thought is, will this be noticeable when it's all said and done bounced down from your sample rate to your final medium? Is it worth hogging up a lot of channels? If you have a high channel count and a lot of I/O why not?

One test I did with just the summing mixer no outboard gear. Other tests I have done with outboard Comps, EQ's, etc... And of course the more control you have over an individual tracks the better for example if I come out the Burls output 1 with the just the inside kik to an outboard comp/eq taylored to just that track VS coming out the the Burls output 1 Inside kik & outside kik combined and want to use outboard Comps & EQ's. Now I have to have the same comp/eq setting for 2 different tracks that I usually treat differently.

So basically it boils down to what works for you? what sacerfices are you willing to make? Less channels? more control? Sorry about the long post but this is how I mix and if it at all clears things up for someone I'm glad to help.

Below is a picture of my IC 690 if anyone has a pic of the Equinox I'd like to see it, or whatever summing mixer your using. It's good to know which has what features. I moved from an api DSM summing system to the Inward connection 690. I'm very satisfied with my decision. Although the api had way more options, way more! The sound of the IC 690 is a lot better IMO. Plus the ease of recall on the 690 is a breeze compared to the api DSM system.
Attached Thumbnails
Shadow Hills Equinox - Summing - Mono channels-image_5662_0.jpg  
Old 21st January 2016
  #11
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
I think I can help answer some questions based of my experience using my summing mixer which is a Inward Connections Mix 690.

It has 16 channels with panning which could be used for mono or stereo depending on how you come out of protools, I noticed with mono sources like kik, Snr, bass, and vox. That coming out mono say protools output 4, it's is dead center if I have my pan knob center and that's how it should be. Now if I take the same track and come out protools output 3&4 and they are panned hard left and right it's does not sound right cause now the mono source kik, Snr, etc... Has a stereo spread to it. If I go out 3&4 with the pan pots centered, it is straight up the center but now I'm waisting an out put on my converters "Burl" and a channel on my mixer "690".

So here is the bottom line. You should use a mono source on your mono channel unless you want to A, have the stereo panned L/R effect, or B, are able to pan your summer straight up the middle and do not mind waisting a channel.

I understand that if you keep the ITB stereo output pans center it will be center mix but it's seems like a split to me and might cause a phase issue, I'm not sure

I am not familiar with the equinox so I don't know if it has pan pots, and if it does not I assume the stereo channels are panned hard L&R. So with a mono source you should use a mono channel. Especially if you want it dead center in the mix and your summing mixer does not have pan pots.

This is why they have designated mono channels. I like the IC 690 because of the panning options you are able to have 16 mono channels, 8 stereo channels, or whatever in between.

Now the question about using more of the inputs on the summer, this is a debated topic, my personal belief from my experience especially with the type of music I do, Rock N Roll, Punk, Indie, "Live instrumentation"

The more you can break out and hit good sounding electronics, opamps, X-formers, etc... The better it sounds, I have done many tests where I stemmed out 14 drum tracks to 8 channels, putting the inside kick & outside kick on channel 1, then Snr top & Snr bottom on channel 2, then took 3 toms and stemmed all three to a stereo channel 3 & 4, breaking out 14 channels down to only 8 on the summing mixer.

Then I did all 14 channels with each on it's own channel not being frugle for the test. I felt that the non frugle tracks sounded better. Again like having a track for every channel on a console.

How much of a difference someone would hear depends on a lot of things. Like how good your listening environment is, how good your monitors & converters are, your ears, etc...

Another thing that should be taken into thought is, will this be noticeable when it's all said and done bounced down from your sample rate to your final medium? Is it worth hogging up a lot of channels? If you have a high channel count and a lot of I/O why not?

One test I did with just the summing mixer no outboard gear. Other tests I have done with outboard Comps, EQ's, etc... And of course the more control you have over an individual tracks the better for example if I come out the Burls output 1 with the just the inside kik to an outboard comp/eq taylored to just that track VS coming out the the Burls output 1 Inside kik & outside kik combined and want to use outboard Comps & EQ's. Now I have to have the same comp/eq setting for 2 different tracks that I usually treat differently.

So basically it boils down to what works for you? what sacerfices are you willing to make? Less channels? more control? Sorry about the long post but this is how I mix and if it at all clears things up for someone I'm glad to help.

Below is a picture of my IC 690 if anyone has a pic of the Equinox I'd like to see it, or whatever summing mixer your using. It's good to know which has what features. I moved from an api DSM summing system to the Inward connection 690. I'm very satisfied with my decision. Although the api had way more options, way more! The sound of the IC 690 is a lot better IMO. Plus the ease of recall on the 690 is a breeze compared to the api DSM system.
Sounds interesting, thanks for sharing.

Yesterday I did a similar test.
I tried running 1 stereo out to the summing box just for color and then sent exactly the same thing but throug 5 stereo output instead of one.

It's pretty subtle but the one with 5 stereo output seemed to have more space in between all the instruments, a bit more open and 3D.
The one with just 1 stereo output add that transformer coloration but it seemed a bit congested.

I only have one 16x16 AD/DA right now but this really makes me want to buy another one. I have a feeling that if I used even more stereo output and also used the mono input on the equinox this would make a substantial difference to the sound quality of my setup.
Old 22nd January 2016
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
I think I can help answer some questions based of my experience using my summing mixer which is a Inward Connections Mix 690.

It has 16 channels with panning which could be used for mono or stereo depending on how you come out of protools, I noticed with mono sources like kik, Snr, bass, and vox. That coming out mono say protools output 4, it's is dead center if I have my pan knob center and that's how it should be. Now if I take the same track and come out protools output 3&4 and they are panned hard left and right it's does not sound right cause now the mono source kik, Snr, etc... Has a stereo spread to it. If I go out 3&4 with the pan pots centered, it is straight up the center but now I'm waisting an out put on my converters "Burl" and a channel on my mixer "690".

So here is the bottom line. You should use a mono source on your mono channel unless you want to A, have the stereo panned L/R effect, or B, are able to pan your summer straight up the middle and do not mind waisting a channel.

I understand that if you keep the ITB stereo output pans center it will be center mix but it's seems like a split to me and might cause a phase issue, I'm not sure

I am not familiar with the equinox so I don't know if it has pan pots, and if it does not I assume the stereo channels are panned hard L&R. So with a mono source you should use a mono channel. Especially if you want it dead center in the mix and your summing mixer does not have pan pots.

This is why they have designated mono channels. I like the IC 690 because of the panning options you are able to have 16 mono channels, 8 stereo channels, or whatever in between.

Now the question about using more of the inputs on the summer, this is a debated topic, my personal belief from my experience especially with the type of music I do, Rock N Roll, Punk, Indie, "Live instrumentation"

The more you can break out and hit good sounding electronics, opamps, X-formers, etc... The better it sounds, I have done many tests where I stemmed out 14 drum tracks to 8 channels, putting the inside kick & outside kick on channel 1, then Snr top & Snr bottom on channel 2, then took 3 toms and stemmed all three to a stereo channel 3 & 4, breaking out 14 channels down to only 8 on the summing mixer.

Then I did all 14 channels with each on it's own channel not being frugle for the test. I felt that the non frugle tracks sounded better. Again like having a track for every channel on a console.

How much of a difference someone would hear depends on a lot of things. Like how good your listening environment is, how good your monitors & converters are, your ears, etc...

Another thing that should be taken into thought is, will this be noticeable when it's all said and done bounced down from your sample rate to your final medium? Is it worth hogging up a lot of channels? If you have a high channel count and a lot of I/O why not?

One test I did with just the summing mixer no outboard gear. Other tests I have done with outboard Comps, EQ's, etc... And of course the more control you have over an individual tracks the better for example if I come out the Burls output 1 with the just the inside kik to an outboard comp/eq taylored to just that track VS coming out the the Burls output 1 Inside kik & outside kik combined and want to use outboard Comps & EQ's. Now I have to have the same comp/eq setting for 2 different tracks that I usually treat differently.

So basically it boils down to what works for you? what sacerfices are you willing to make? Less channels? more control? Sorry about the long post but this is how I mix and if it at all clears things up for someone I'm glad to help.

Below is a picture of my IC 690 if anyone has a pic of the Equinox I'd like to see it, or whatever summing mixer your using. It's good to know which has what features. I moved from an api DSM summing system to the Inward connection 690. I'm very satisfied with my decision. Although the api had way more options, way more! The sound of the IC 690 is a lot better IMO. Plus the ease of recall on the 690 is a breeze compared to the api DSM system.
I agree with you on pretty much all points, even though I'm on only 8 channels. I'm sure 16+ would be amazing.

Just a couple thoughts I have (that are more theory than real tests):

-Sending all drums to their own channel keeps you from being able to use a bus compressor on the drums as a whole.

-2 identical tracks(or 1 track given a stereo output) going left and right is exactly the same as mono. I suppose the opamps on the 690(I believe are on each channel) may affect that? That might be a desirable effect...depending.

...

Here's a pic that I took for recall. I've been super bad/lazy at recall notes, but I rarely have to do it. I usually take quick phone pics and post a private FB post to myself then erase it. I'm pretty good with file management

I really enjoy having level and pan on each channel myself. Having Level allows you to vary how hard you hit the mixer. You can play with the tone that way.
Attached Thumbnails
Shadow Hills Equinox - Summing - Mono channels-recall.jpg  
Old 22nd January 2016
  #13
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Anybody else tried mono vs stereo input on their equinox? I'd love to get more opinions about that before I invest in new converters / cables.
Old 22nd January 2016
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Anybody else tried mono vs stereo input on their equinox? I'd love to get more opinions about that before I invest in new converters / cables.
I'm guessing you have 16(or 24) channels running now, just take 8 of them and do some tests. 8(4 stereo) channels and 8 mono channels. Try running drums through, A/Bing kick and snare on stereo channels, then mono.

My 2 cents is that even if your mind isn't blown, 4 tracks that you would normally have mono(bass, vox, kick, snare...) using up 8 channels of your converters and mixer would now take up only 4.

...

Nice thing about having pan control on your mixer, you are not either limited to having to dead center, or using 2 channels to have it somewhere in your stereo field(other than LCR).
Old 22nd January 2016
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesewhiteman View Post
I'm guessing you have 16(or 24) channels running now, just take 8 of them and do some tests. 8(4 stereo) channels and 8 mono channels. Try running drums through, A/Bing kick and snare on stereo channels, then mono.

My 2 cents is that even if your mind isn't blown, 4 tracks that you would normally have mono(bass, vox, kick, snare...) using up 8 channels of your converters and mixer would now take up only 4.

...

Nice thing about having pan control on your mixer, you are not either limited to having to dead center, or using 2 channels to have it somewhere in your stereo field(other than LCR).
I have an Avid HD i/o 16x16 with dsub.

The way my wiring setup is it's a bit of a pain to change the cabling, I have to remove the equinox from the rack and all and might scratch some other gear while doing it cause it's a tight fit. All my gear is in a Sterling mastering desk copy.

I will probably do the test anyway but I'm still curious to hear more people's opinion.

I usually work with stems, so drums on 1 stereo stem, bass and guitars on another, vocals on another.... etc.
Old 22nd January 2016
  #16
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I have the Equinox and will try mono vs stereo channel in a few minutes. I use the summing for outboard gear so I have not tried this just as summing. Ill let you know soon.
Old 22nd January 2016
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRStudio View Post
I have the Equinox and will try mono vs stereo channel in a few minutes. I use the summing for outboard gear so I have not tried this just as summing. Ill let you know soon.
Great, If you wanna post some files after too that would be great but even just having your opinion will be good.

How many channels of the equinox are you using? What does your setup look like, you put hardware in between your daw and the Equinox?
Thanks
Old 22nd January 2016
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesewhiteman View Post

-Sending all drums to their own channel keeps you from being able to use a bus compressor on the drums as a whole.
I agree with you as well but want to point out how I am able to use a buss comp with my drums and summing amp.

I buss all my drums ITB to a pair of stereo outputs and hit the buss comp usually the api 2500. Yes it eats up 2 channels but it's worth the price.
Old 22nd January 2016
  #19
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If you're not using those mono inputs they need to be terminated to something. If they aren't, you're going to experience some imaging weirdness. That's why Shadow Hills includes a little DB25 terminator in the box, so if you don't use those mono channels you won't have an issue.

I had a fairly long email thread going with Shadow Hills' head tech, Marshall, about this awhile ago and he directed me to a great white paper (see link below) about passive vs active summing that explained this. I should also mention Marshall is one of the classiest guys around!

http://www.forsselltech.com/media/at...mming_buss.pdf
Old 23rd January 2016
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
I agree with you as well but want to point out how I am able to use a buss comp with my drums and summing amp.

I buss all my drums ITB to a pair of stereo outputs and hit the buss comp usually the api . Yes it eats up 2 channels but it's worth the price.
Oh, yeah, that's what I do to. I think I'm going to get one of those 8 channel unit audio summing boxes so I can use hardware comps on the kick and snare and sum the drum kit with the unit into a stereo pair of the BLA mixer. Instead of summing the kit ITB.
Old 30th January 2019
  #21
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Sorry to revive this old thread. Just wondering about the DB25 terminator for the mono channels. I lost mine. Does anyone know if you can just buy something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Terminator-SC...b25+terminator

thanks,
j5
Old 1st February 2019
  #22
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Anyone? (bump)
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