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PLEASE, THE TRUTH! Why are 2" tape machines so cheap these days ?
Old 20th May 2006
  #91
Harmless Wacko
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle
..."I have had SUBSTANTIAL archival issues. And let's face it, ONE... is ONE TOO MANY...."

Remind me to never ask you to do any of my archival work!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you guys really slap something on one single dvd or one single hard drive as an "archive" and then intend to forget it and let it sit in a drawer for 5-10-20 years and then "see" if it works?

I have archives on archives on archives. It's ongoing...from safety analog reels of the 70's...to safety Sony F1/vhs of the 80's..to dat..to adat...to 16bit wav on cd...to 24 bit wav on dvd...to 24/192 on dvd...to dual layer...to multiple hard drives...and now as of last week, over to blu-ray.

Ongoing archives has been a constant since the 60's for me. Why would one do a single archive or two and then leave it at that? Weird.

If half my archives go bad, no problem, the other bazillion are still there. If my original analog reels are destroyed in a comet explosion, no problem. I've reached critical mass with my level of archives on all my old stuff. Most of it first generation now that we've gotten out of the horrid old technology of decades long gone.

And as an ongoing measure, archives are constantly being moved to new media...most of which is very very inexpensive. And..most of the old stuff continues to work. With the ongoing archives procedure...who really cares that that dvd from 2001 won't read anymore. So what? Pull out one of the other 15 copies made at other points in time on other machines on other media of the same archive.

If you have "one" archive of something and it goes bad....and it's your "only" archive....especially after a few years down the road...as I say, remind me to never ask you to do any archiving for me!
I'll tell ya what.

You keep on archiving there freaky.

Sounds like ya got a lotta free time on yer hands.

Say.... yer not "Saul Rosenburg" from the Jerky Boys are ya....?

LMFBO.

Where are they COMING FROM...?


SM.
Old 20th May 2006
  #92
Lives for gear
 

............"You keep on archiving there freaky...."


That's "Mr." Freaky to you!
Old 20th May 2006
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperman
I'll tell ya what.

You keep on archiving there freaky.

Sounds like ya got a lotta free time on yer hands.

Say.... yer not "Saul Rosenburg" from the Jerky Boys are ya....?

LMFBO.

Where are they COMING FROM...?


SM.
Thats a whole other bag of bull with working exclusively digital, when did it become our headache to store all this crap? Does the client pay for all this archiving time or are you just real generous. There's a local studio here that has piles of drives with every clients data, he can't get the clients to either buy their own drive or pay for the time for him to back up their data. How f#$ked is that? When a client's project is done I want them to take their 2" reels , DVD's of the data, CD's of the mixes or tape
cd's of the automation data and do with it as they please. I absolutely do not want to be responsible for anyones data for a second longer than I have to. The funny thing is by the time they pay for all the backups, by the time the song is done, they could of bought a reel of 2".
Old 20th May 2006
  #94
Lives for gear
 
7 Hz's Avatar
Back in the 'good old days' of 2", we had studio policy on that issue. There was two ways to go - either you bought your tape, or you hired it. The hired tape was like a 'demo' real for bands that didn't want to add £150 to the cost of the session. The policy was simple. If you hired the tape, then it would be kept for a week, then reused. If you bought your tape, that's your's to keep.

The same would strike me in todays digital world. Either buy a hard drive for your recording, or you can use the studio drive, but it won't be kept after a week.

You want a backup / the original, you PAY for it.

Backup onto DVD? Sure, that'll be the normal studio hourly rate to sit and figure out the tracks, files etc and burn it.

All this should be discussed AND AGREED with the client before the session starts. Anything less is not professional.

-------------------------

What are 2" so cheap? Because they are esoteric now. Only a small subset of engineers / studio owners see any potential in using them. Most still feel bad because of the £££££ they spent on their own 'washing machines' back in '89, that are now worth 4% of what they paid for them. Most know that servicing them is not cheap at all, especialy if you live away from the major centres... try flying a good tech 1000 miles over to service your machine. Plus hotel. plus he'll probably have to order parts (if they are still available), then come back and fit them. Now compare that to going to your nearest compute-o-chain and buying a new HDD.

Tape is a beutiful medium. It is true that it has reached the 'can't give it away' stage. Whether it will bounce back or not is another matter. These things are extremly bulky (talking 4 people and a tail-lift truck to move), and VERY mechanical, with motors, breaks etc PLUS the heads wear out, plus electronics etc etc, they are really high maintenence, the highest by far out of all gear, even compared to valve hammonds, analogue consoles, or old synths. They are more comparable to racing cars than everything else, including fussy brakes that have to be adjusted / replaced. I'm not sure they are worth it as an 'investment', just buying one to sit around will almost guarantee it will rust / jam / deteriorate. Think storing a classic car.
Old 20th May 2006
  #95
Gear Maniac
 

Holographic Recording Technology

Holographic Recording Technology
Old 21st May 2006
  #96
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by transfiguration



a single strand of dna, when the double helix is unfolded, is 6 feet long. 46 strands live inside a cell that is 10 micrometers, or one millionth of a meter. you have about a trillion cells in your body.

that's 276,000,000,000,000,000 feet of dna in each human body.

let's not even bother with how much genetic information is stored in a single foot of dna.

now THAT is some serious storage capacity.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 21st May 2006
  #97
Gear Addict
 
Mike Derrick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Hz
...and VERY mechanical, with motors, breaks etc PLUS the heads wear out, plus electronics etc etc, they are really high maintenence, the highest by far out of all gear, even compared to valve hammonds, analogue consoles, or old synths. They are more comparable to racing cars than everything else, including fussy brakes that have to be adjusted / replaced. I'm not sure they are worth it as an 'investment', just buying one to sit around will almost guarantee it will rust / jam / deteriorate. Think storing a classic car.
Let the exaggerations abound...

If you treat any gear digital/analog properly, it'll last properly.
ALot of the analog tape machines were built to last and still do.

7Hz, You think your computer doesn't have any moving parts???
that your computer doesn't need maintenance???
that your computer can't rust???
that your computer won't need upgrading for RAM, processor speed, etc???
that your computer won't "jam" or "deteroirate"???
have you read any of the threads here at Gearslutz with all the problems people have with their computers....come on!!!
"not worth the investment" ??? huh? ...is a computer DAW worth the investment if in 5 years or so it is outdated and worth 10% or 20% it's original price.

It's so easy to point out the flaws of one medium and ignore the other, however, be honest,...they both have their problems and both are subject to deterioration over time.

I have CDRs whose sound quality has deteriorated into scratchy digital distortion,...completely unlistenable. They were burned in 2000.
I have analog cassette tapes from the early 90's that still sound fine.
On the other hand, I have found some old cassette tapes that deteriorated as well and won't play or sound like crap.
I also have CDR's I burned before 2000 that still sound perfect.

oh by the way,...two of the analog tape recorders I've owned have outlasted the 2 previous computers I've owned.
And both analog tape machines...
have not rusted
have not been high maintenance,...(barely low maintenance)
have outlasted keyboards
brakes are in great working order,
no jamming or deterioration
and value-wise,...both my analog tape recorders have a much higher $ value today than those 2 older computers....
{and likely on par (and one machine actually more) $ than my current computer}
hmmmm....

~ mike
Old 21st May 2006
  #98
Gear Nut
 
Shlomo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush
Please do not comment on tape until you have used it for 25-30 years.
Then you can comment on tape.
To keep it fair, we'll have to wait at least another 10-15 years for the digital media people to catch up before they also can comment.
Old 21st May 2006
  #99
Gear Maniac
 
commaKaze's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691
Hey commakazee,

I have recorded and mixed more rappers in the metro New Orleans area than ANY other studio in the last 5 years. I have seen more gold teeth and Glocks walk in to my studio probably than any other member of this forum. I'm the studio that took on all the clients that all the other politically correct "snobs" in this city would not, due to their innate prejudice and fear of the african people of this city. Yes, SNOBS who protest racism in the safe, ivy league dormitories of white bred universities, but who tremble in fear when stopped at a red light in an african ghetto.

My studio is actually IN THE GHETTO! Most people think I am nuts to get in and out of my car at night. But guess what ? I have hundreds of gold toothed, Glock carrying rappers and thugs from this city who absolutely adore me and would cover my back in any hostile situation. Why? Because I gave them great sounding production at a price that made the other studios look like con-artists to them; and most of all, I WAS NOT the politically correct type to make them feel uncomfortable in the studio. I let them curse, scream, wail, and say nigga til their hearts were content.

And now I am even collaborating with a N.O. rapper on my latest album. That's right, I RAP!!!!

And guess what else ? MOST of the REAL THUG rappers who have come to my studio share an attitude that modern rap is just a bunch of lame posers who are sellout *****s for the mainstream record industry. There is a big ATTITUDE amongst these rappers that RAP SUCKS today, and needs to be REVIVED. They see modern rap as the white man's manipulation scheme to dominate the minds of the downtrodden ethnic masses, by promoting the lamest and most meaningless rap that you see on television today. And they have a deep insight into this, and a wonderfully creative way of expressing their thoughts about it!!! YES, the white man's evil entertainment industry DESTROYED the cultural MOVEMENT that was the RAP of the past intentionally! How did he do it ? By promoting the superficial posers!

David Duke ? What !!!! Go back to the university, white boy!!
I'm suprised, I actually agree with some of your points...and BTW, I'm not a PC university white boy. South Boston, SW Miami, not Cambridge...quite different. Well if you felt like you had to take it that far to prove you have street cred, sure you got it, I guess...I'm not going to try to "prove myself" to you, but I'm glad you cleared that up anyways...you must be able to see how that came off at the start of a thread? Looked kinda bad, man. I hold hip-hop up really highly as an art(as do you), and maybe you didn't mean for it to look like it did, but it came off like a "Grampa" statement about why rappers have "ruined" the want for sound quality, that's all. And it appears you thought so as well, because you edited it out since, right? Miscommunication, misunderstanding...perhaps...keep on keeping on, man...

I say we both delete our posts 'cos they're really hijacks anyways...2" tape is the real topic...I'll delete if you delete...
Old 21st May 2006
  #100
Lives for gear
 
7 Hz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Derrick
Let the exaggerations abound...
Hey, let the overreactions abound! You picked me up all wrong mate.

I covered everything you are ranting about in my post. I wasn't comparing analogue tape to computers. Computers have to be renewed every 3 years, they don't get a chance to wear out, and if they do, they are very, VERY easy to replace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Derrick
"not worth the investment"
READ what I wrote AFTER that - "just buying one to sit around will almost guarantee it will rust / jam / deteriorate."

Still, if you think that buying a 2" machine to have sitting in your garage for years as an 'investment' is a good idea, go for it.

You can get off your soapbox now... heh
Old 22nd May 2006
  #101
Gear Addict
 
Mike Derrick's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=7 Hz]
Quote:
Now compare that to going to your nearest compute-o-chain and buying a new HDD
.

7Hz,

Maybe I read ya wrong,...but you were comparing analog tape recorders to computers,... see your quote above,
it seems quite direct to me...not sure how else to read that.

Regardless, I won't get off my soapbox until people are honest about the issues. Your statments hold some truth, but are misleading as broad-brush generalities. Some context would've helped.

Quote:
Still, if you think that buying a 2" machine to have sitting in your garage for years as an 'investment' is a good idea, go for it.
Now suddenly you mean machines put into bad storage for everything you said in that post?
Why then would you mention maintenance, heads, brakes, etc,...?
Who needs to worry about that stuff if it is "just gonna sit around in storage"
(huh?, i know my comprehension can be bad at times,...but)
I don't think Sage was intending to buy a 2" machine just to put it into storage.
So the context of the conversation was the price and potential usability of a 2".
For better or worse, that's the context with which I read your post.

So SAGE is debating whether to get a 2" machine and wondering why the value has dropped compared to their former price.
And your advice is that machines can rust, jam, deteriorate?
I guess I took it to be your notion of what all machines will be,... since you didn't present the other side of the reality,
nor did you mention "garage" in the original post, (although I suppose you were indirectly implying that with the "old car" analogy)

If Sage goes and buys a machine that wasn't properly maintained, and was left in a damp room with rain dripping on the machine,...then yes your advice is appropriate.
If he buys a machine properly maintained and in good working order, he has a fantastic machine that will last a long long time with very good sound quality.
And yes there is the potential for problems, (like all gear) but it is just as fair to say he may not have any problems, or perhaps something in between.

Yes he will have to demag, clean his heads, bais, buy tape,...maybe even relap a head or replace one, possibly fix a motor, replace an electronic part. (Maybe, maybe not for the latter.)
These are definitely things to be aware of when purchasing a machine.

~ mike
Old 22nd May 2006
  #102
Lives for gear
 
7 Hz's Avatar
Hey mike - no biggie, I was discussing the other replies in the thread as much as the original question, but then I was keeping the original question in mind as well

"Why are 2" tape machines so cheap these days ?"

I was giving my answer. They are expensive to maintain, and parts are hard to come by. That is a given. maybe you have never used a 2" machine enough to have to get the heads relapped or replaced, or a motor burn out, or another one of the hundreds of things that can, do, and will go wrong with a mechanical tape machine if used a lot (every day 10 hours a day for a working studio). I only compared these to computers (hard drives in fact) to make the point that computers are stoopid cheap and easy to fix (err, replace), 2" analogue is far from that.

I was also giving my opinion on buying one of these machines as an investment, maybe to store until they go up in price (replying to an earlier post), and what could possably go wrong in these curcumstances. Maybe I wasn't clear enough or maybe I was being a little overdramatic, but I still maintain that you have to know what you are doing to store a mechanical machine such as this for any length of time.

Regardless of my non-clarity or any misunderstanding - I think 2" is a great format, but taking into account the practicalities of owning and running one of these machines I still think the analogy to a classic car holds true - expect to have to find a specialist mechanic and have headaches, unless it is a low milage machine!
Old 22nd May 2006
  #103
Gear Addict
 
Mike Derrick's Avatar
 

7Hz,

ok, that makes sense to me now,...good points. Thanks for explaining yourself.

~ mike
Old 22nd May 2006
  #104
Gear Addict
 
Capstan Cappy's Avatar
 

absolutely 7hz, low milage is a pre when starting the adventure of tape
Old 22nd May 2006
  #105
Gear Maniac
Shouldn't this be in Low End?
Old 22nd May 2006
  #106
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great
What about DSD multi-channel? Seems like it offers the best of both worlds.
DSD multi-channel------D.O.A.

Let's get back to the topic-----analog tape machines are the piece de resistance in giving the final polish to your project. Those who do not realize it simply have not worked long enough in the industry to have access to hang around with true masters of the craft. They will show (you listen) you that the above is true.

I learned this from the man who does the final mix on the Stones records and the Tom Petty records and the Dylan records.

Then I knew. . .('cause I heard. . .)
Old 22nd May 2006
  #107
Gear Addict
 
Jeff A. Roberts's Avatar
 

Anyone that fears motor failure in 2" analog machines doesn't know enough about motors.

Electric motors can be repaired. Bearings can be replaced, brushes can be replaced, and armatures can be rewound.

I have motors running in my shop that are 60 years old and more. When you can't get a replacement with the right size frame, or the right speed or power, ya fix your old motor. It's as simple as that.

And speaking of old mechanical things, I have a collection of WWII screw machines that run all day long, every day of the week. I even have a screw machine from 1913 that works good as new!

To me, a tape machine from 1982 is barely broken in.

As I said before, I used to be a full time alignment and bias guy on MCI's, and between Eddie Cilleti and me, the JH24 that I will recieve this Friday will run forever.

Oddly enough I also have Hammonds made from 1937 to 1965, and a plate reverb. Go figure.

My experience with all things old and mechanical is that you overhaul them if necessary, do any regular required maintenance, and then they run like tops.

That actually apllies equally well to old guitar amps, vintage rack gear, and vintage mics.

I have had more problems with new Neumann mics than all of my old intruments, mics and amps put together.
Old 22nd May 2006
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff A. Roberts
My experience with all things old and mechanical is that you overhaul them if necessary, do any regular required maintenance, and then they run like tops.

That actually apllies equally well to old guitar amps, vintage rack gear, and vintage mics.

thumbsup
Old 22nd May 2006
  #109
Lives for gear
 
7 Hz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff A. Roberts
Anyone that fears motor failure in 2" analog machines doesn't know enough about motors.

{{{snip}}}

As I said before, I used to be a full time alignment and bias guy on MCI's, and between Eddie Cilleti and me, the JH24 that I will recieve this Friday will run forever.
Well, that's fine if you are a qualified tech who know how to take these things apart and fix them. I know motors can be rebuilt, but it's the knowlege to know how to take everything apart, and then set it back up, that some newb won't have a clue about. Not every engineer or studio owner is a mechanical or electrical engineer.

Anyway, the motor is nothing compared to the head block. That you are NOT gonna take down to your local machine shop to get fixed :-)

Yes, old gear well look after is a joy. Exactly the same as a vintage car. You guys are talking about gear that has been expertly maintained, whereas I am looking at the worst case of a machine that has been thrashed for 15 years with minimal maintenence , then left in a damp garage. Or worse, maybe someone who didn't know what they were doing tried to fix it!
Old 22nd May 2006
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7 Hz
Yes, old gear well look after is a joy. Exactly the same as a vintage car. You guys are talking about gear that has been expertly maintained, whereas I am looking at the worst case of a machine that has been thrashed for 15 years with minimal maintenence , then left in a damp garage. Or worse, maybe someone who didn't know what they were doing tried to fix it!
thumbsup
Old 22nd May 2006
  #111
Gear Addict
 
Jeff A. Roberts's Avatar
 

I never said that all old gear is wonderful and should be purchased and loved.

I'm buying a recently retired, select MCI JH24 that has already had the Blevins treatment from the collection of Jay "Mad Moose " Kahrs, a qualified GearSlut, not a pig in a poke. Obviously, when buying any old or vintage gear it's poor economy to not purchase the best gear you can find from a known, reliable source.

An experienced tech can show anyone interested how to do daily maintenance like cleaning, biasing and alignment in a few hours max.

As for having Eddie Ciletti in the neighborhood. I can't help it. He moved here for a reason. Any decent sized metropolitan area should have a few experienced multi-track guys available for any nefarious issus that crop up.
Old 28th May 2006
  #112
Gear Head
 
Garrett's Avatar
 

Don't waste our time

Look, unless you have used both formats (tape and DAW) you owe it to the world to keep your mouth shut.

What do you know? What you've read here? What you hypothesized? Go away.

Honestly, I've used both - alot. And both have good and bad points. But if you're out here writing about how bad one or the other is and you've never run real sessions - REAL sessions - on them, then you're a tosser. A waste of time tosser.

Garrett Haines
Old 28th May 2006
  #113
Lives for gear
 

Cost of tape. Most of my "clients" would balk at paying for tape, even one reel of 1/4", or even a Hi-8 tape for the DA-88, ($10.00) so in order to keep my costs down it's ITB from now on. Some of these people even balk at supplying blank cd's....sheesh
Old 28th May 2006
  #114
Lives for gear
 
Rednose's Avatar
Lets not forget about 2" storage.
You can store several albums on a 250 gig without having to reel tape.
Also, theres alot of kewl things you can do in the digital relm that can't be done in analoge.
The ability to comp many vocal tracks with ease, and fix certain bum notes might make a digital recordingssound better than a flat singer with the warmth of tape.
Old 29th May 2006
  #115
Gear Maniac
 

my new studio is 100% analog (except for the masterlink) and i'm so incredibly glad that digidesign no longer has me by the balls. my ampex tape machines (mm1200-16, atr-102, 351) don't need software upgrades every year, and won't be obsolete the way pt mix plus is now. it does help that ATR services is 30 minutes away from my studio haha. my tape machines have never decided to take a **** in the middle of a session and cause me to be on hold with tech support for a couple of hours, and my 351 was MADE IN THE 1950s!! i don't have to worry about dithering or A/D converters or how many conversions i'll have to make or things like that. in that respect it seems to me that tape is an absolute BARGAIN! it sounds good, it's fast, you don't get headaches from staring at computer screens, and it makes your studio stand out. there are THOUSANDS of pro tools and plug ins studios out there, so my studio stands out because it's different. the last thing that tape, and by extension, analog does is it takes away your ability to 'see' the music. you can't look at the wave and decide how to eq it. this is a positive for me because i no longer 2nd guess myself. in PT i'd always do something by ear and then get the urge to change it after seeing the graphic. now if something needs eq i eq it and move on. i save sooooo much time, have fewer type of cables to screw with, and my gear won't be obsolete in 2 years. i KNOW that my tape machines and console (neotek elan, very very pleasant sounding desk BTW) are going to be there, so i can spend more money on comps and eqs. when you take into account the cost of the myriad upgrades for PT, converters, summing, a pile of external preamps, and something for monitoring you're at the cost of a nice analog system that will bring in some work. of course my experience is with rock and roll and 'roots' music, so it could be completely backwards for hip hop, dance, voice overs, jingles, etc etc.

lastly, i'll never give digidesign another cent of my money. that alone makes me smile.
Old 29th May 2006
  #116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednose
Lets not forget about 2" storage.
You can store several albums on a 250 gig without having to reel tape.
Also, theres alot of kewl things you can do in the digital relm that can't be done in analoge.
The ability to comp many vocal tracks with ease, and fix certain bum notes might make a digital recordingssound better than a flat singer with the warmth of tape.
Lets not forget about 2" storage, in 10 years time do you think there will be a computer that still uses firewire? Much less what will the OS be and will they support these data types. And lets not forget by storing on a hard drive you've got to hope the thing will run in 10 years , hasnt been dropped etc. I think 2 " is a much more reliable way to archive data.
Old 4th June 2006
  #117
Lives for gear
 
No4PCs's Avatar
If

If i had money and found a 2inches tape multitrack machine, with good heads i could try record something for myself, my tunes, my sound. Not for rent, because need have too much care with this machines, clean, alignement bias, etc...
But for a personal use, i think the must listen my tunes running good through the 2" tape ! Strong hardware, strong sound. Its my dream. But, in a comercial studio, renting for nuts, anything digital is enough.
Peace and good dreams.
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