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API 3124 vs Great River for male rock vocals Condenser Microphones
Old 16th May 2006
  #1
Gear Head
 

API 3124 vs Great River for male rock vocals

I know the NV Great River and the API pres are frequently recommended on this site, especially for rock drums and the like.

My studio is currently upgrading its pres and we'll be demoing these units first hand. But I'd like to know your opinions on whether or not the API would make the Great River sort of redundant for vocals.

I'm having one rack of 3124's sent here. And I've played with the Great River the past few days (on my voice). I like it (just cannot wait to here the API!!!!). But I'd like to hear more opinions.

I do mostly rock bands (screaming male vocals) and a ton of hip hop. I know the GR is only $2200, but that'd buy me another 3124. (I could end up with 8 pres vs 6).

I hope my first post here is clear on the question. Thanks all!

brian
Old 16th May 2006
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
bionicears's Avatar
Unless you really need 2 more channels, I'd go with the GR. I have the GR and the 3124. I like the GR for vocals--much more flexible as you can really change the sound using the gain and impedence/loading. And I use the insert to patch in a comp while tracking vocals. Plus it will give you a different flavor for bass/keyboards/guitars etc than the 3124. Really, they are both great pres, but if I could only have one, it would be the GR.
Old 16th May 2006
  #3
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De chromium cob's Avatar
 

They are totally different. Apples to Oranges.

But if you've heard both, what do you need us for?
Old 17th May 2006
  #4
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Wes Kuhnley's Avatar
 

Great River.
Old 17th May 2006
  #5
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NOCCA's Avatar
 

You've already got API, so get the GR, unless you are one of those guys who likes one sound for everything. (which is completly valid).
Old 17th May 2006
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by De chromium cob
They are totally different. Apples to Oranges.

But if you've heard both, what do you need us for?
Thanks for the feedback! I haven't got the APIs in house yet (they're on the way). I know I'll be able to make my own conclusions when I can A/B them. (and compare them to the other pres I own).

It's just that I usually end up testing this stuff on my voice or acoustic. And I'd like to hear from people who use these pres on someone other than me. (I do try to have clients come in and lay down some scratch tracks with new gear, it's just too difficult right now with clients' and studio's schedules...)

I like having the different flavors. I think it would be nice to offer clients a couple channels of Great River, API, Focusrite, etc. I'm just looking for thoughts and things to consider when I line up my shootout later this week, esp in regards to the APIs.

For the record, I'll be looking at Great River NV1, API 3124, Focusrite ISA 428. I'd rather not keep them all (LOL, I just might) due to budget reasons. I'm looking to swap out some of the 24 pres I already have (UA 610, Presonus, and Focusrite Platinum type pres).

Thanks all!
Brian
Old 17th May 2006
  #7
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De chromium cob's Avatar
 

BTW, read THIS thread and follow the advice about the pads on the outputs to get the best from the APIs....
Old 17th May 2006
  #8
Gear Head
 

I'm hoping I do not have to pad the APIs going into the 192 I/O I am using for my Pro Tools setup. Guess I will see tomorrow.

brian
Old 17th May 2006
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
NOCCA's Avatar
 

You shouldn't 192s have nice little trim pots (ok fine they are a pain in the ass to get to once racked) just adjust the pot to the desired level and bingo no external pads!
Old 17th May 2006
  #10
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Jason Poulin's Avatar
 

Both are good.





Jason
Old 23rd May 2006
  #11
Gear Head
 

Great River vs API vs ISA 428

Well I now have had a few days to ponder these gear pieces. Still waiting to do drums with the api vs isa though.

Here's my initial gut reactions to the stuff. Anyone concur? Or have any other opinions/advice?

For the record, I've been testing with
Blue Mouse - for my Neuman-esque? vocal sound
Rode NTK, K2, MXLV69 for "tooby" (or tubby) sound
Shure SM7b - yelling vox and horns
Soundeluxe iFet7
MXL 2001 (I still like my first mic), various other chinese mics
API 3124
Focusrite ISA 428
Great River NV1
Focusrite Platinum pres
Presonus Digimax pres

Ifet7 mic - I used it 2 days. It couldn't take loud vocals well, in either mode. I was bummed. To my ears, it wasn't any better than any of my other mics. I guess for $2200 I wanted to go WOH! Finally a go to mic. I boxed it and away it went.

Great River - I like it on my voice and a couple other yellers. It tames the Mouse's upper mids in a nice way. The NTK is almost usuable thru it (!). It doesn't seem to have the headroom of the API on really loud transients though. I'm iffy on it, because $1100 for a dedicated vocal channel that might not work on everyone scares me. I did like the K2 and MXLV69 thru it. With the V69 being more agressive sounding.

API- used it on trumpets and some vocals. K2 thru the API was smooth, although a bit bland. V69 thru it for vocals was actually pretty cool sounding. Recorded some trumpets thru it with my sm7. It was less forward sounding than the ISA 428. But both the API and ISA on trumpet sounded good, and sonically pretty darn close. Vocals thru the API didn't seem as immediate as the NV. I ended up thinking, boy, this stuff sounds nice, but it didn't grab me. I can tell how this pre could stack tracks. (Lots of vocals recorded with it would layer nice, etc). Didnt use it on drums yet, which is why I got it. Want to see how its stacks up against 428.

ISA 428-I know the Chinese Focusrites get slammed here. And this pre didn't knock me out, per se. But the Mouse and the V69 really sounded "poppy" thru it, in a good sense. Where the Great River was more rock and roll, bedroom sounding to me, the 428 was more focused, less bottom, more mids in general. Very finished sounding (probably great for voice overs). Would it be too clear for drum OH in my crappy little drum room? Dunno. Yet... :-) I did like the sm7 on it for trumpet. And one singer I had sounded perfect with the 428 and the V69. The K2 sounded bland again thru it. And the Mouse sounded, well, middy. For vocals, this is the one I picked last (except for one guy). But on my Martin acoustic, I thought this pre was very clear and detailed, compared to the Great River, which again sounded darker and less detailed. Still trying to see how this stacks up against the API.

For what its worth, I'd rather keep 2 of the 3 pres. My studio is growing insanely and business is great. But I don't want to spend too much too soon. I got the K2 and V69 sent here on a Lark. But I actually am really liking the V69 for rock and pop, which is what I do here. I don't WANT to like it vs the K2. But I need a dark mic. And I think the V69 is taking EQ better than the K2, and the NTK, well, its an NTK.

As for the pres, I like the Great River, almost certainly a keeper. But headroom is a concern. As for the API, didn't use it on drums. Doesn't sound a TON different than the 428 to my ears. I got it sent here on reputation. And I'm leary about the 428 for same reason. Using my ears, they all sound nice. And much better than my Presonus digimax and Voicemaster Pro.

But if you had to pick one mic and 2 of the pres, which would you pick?

sorry for the long post...
brian
Old 23rd May 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
jdjustice's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
But if you had to pick one mic and 2 of the pres, which would you pick?
API 3124+
Great River NV1


No bones about it, these two pres are both excellent and are different enough that you will have some tonal choices. I say screw the Focusrite; if you need a pre for acoustic guitar and you want something that picks up transients, look at the Buzz Audio MA2.2 perhaps with the optional Sowter transformer installed (for $300 more)... Buzz Audio makes great stuff; the ARC is cool too.

Otherwise, have you seen the Manley TNT?? It might be a good 3rd choice for a pre....

When it comes to mics I am not too fond of any of these choices. If you are looking for the Neumann sound, look for a used Neumann. If you don't want to mess with expensive vintage mics, the Neumann M147 is a good choice and you could probably find it for around $2k if you search. Rather than the BLUE Mouse I would recommend a Kiwi. That is an excellent mic too. These are JMHOs, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
As for the pres, I like the Great River, almost certainly a keeper. But headroom is a concern.
The Great River has TONS of headroom. This should not be a concern.


Cheers,

J.D.
Old 23rd May 2006
  #13
Lives for gear
 
drmmrboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
But if you had to pick one mic and 2 of the pres, which would you pick?
Make that 2 for -

API 3124+
Great River NV1

The mic? Well umm.. ehh.. I dunno..
Old 23rd May 2006
  #14
PID
Gear Head
 
PID's Avatar
If you want choices why not get an API lunchbox or the 10 space rack? As you're talking about getting the ME-1NV and not the MP-2NV you probably don't need the four 312's.

Get 2 BAE 312's for now and expand to add flavours as you want...

Sure it's an investment to get started, but each module pre is cheaper. You're not paying for power supplies and a rack box for every one, and there is a whole palette out there that keeps getting bigger.

Check it out at :

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...ght=500+series

The buzz isn't out yet, Paul Wolff is putting out the Tonelux adaptor this summer, Avedis is out with a new EQ. A Designs pre's are great.

Of course there's always API too!

Just my 2c
Old 23rd May 2006
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
But if you had to pick one mic and 2 of the pres, which would you pick?
brian
Great River & API.

The GR has lots of headroom...both do...I mean tons.

You were not setting the gain stainging properly if you felt you ran out of headroom on the GR.

I think the 428a is a very good pre. Nice and clean with lots of flexibility with the impedance loading options.

But the API and GR are a step above...plus the GR has loading options too.

The real bonus in their flexibility is in how hard you hit the front-end.

The GR has a built in output attenutor so you can see this immediately.

Run some dynamic acoustic guitar in by setting the gain with the output know turned all the way up. This will hit the front the lightest. Remember the level into your DAW.

Now re-record that same piece/instrument, this time setting the output know very low and turning the gain know up to come in at the same level to your DAW (close to it).

Now listen. Ahhh...nice.
You can also see the transformer saturation on the second pass in the waveform...it should look compressed.
The API LOVES to do the same thing but you need to add output attenuators (in the form of pads of some sort--ATTYs or Shure AS15S).

They both sound different doing it.

Another option with the same tools...now that is bonus!

BTW, while the API sounds great on drums...it really sounds great on everything.
I can make an entire album with just the API (many albums have) or Spider.
GR too.
Those would be my top candidates for desert island pres.


Regards,
David
Old 23rd May 2006
  #16
Gear Addict
 
joninc's Avatar
 

i have a 1mv and a 428 and love them both. the GR gets that fatness - forwardness of vocals - snares - kicks - bass - the 428 is smooth and round for acoustics - overheads - toms - piano. good versatility between the 2. haven't used
any of those mics but i have got a lot of mileage out of my TLM 103 and they go pretty cheap used...

good luck!
Old 23rd May 2006
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
Ifet7 mic - It couldn't take loud vocals well, in either mode.

You must have had a broken unit or had your gain structure set incorrectly. This mic has low sensitivity (about 9 millivolts) in general and you could record a very loud guitar amp with it and not pad the mic preamp. It's our #1 mic choice for metal and hardcore screamers around here that would fry your ears if you were standing in the room 2 feet in front of them. Beats the SM-7b 9/10 times too. If anyone has bothered to compare the two, they'll notice a smoother midrange on the ifet7 with the need for less compression (the SM-7b needs a lot of compression to make vocals sit right in the mix IMO, but that's why it's so good on guitar amps).
Old 23rd May 2006
  #18
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jdjustice's Avatar
ifet7 construction issues??

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
You must have had a broken unit or had your gain structure set incorrectly. This mic has low sensitivity (about 9 millivolts) in general and you could record a very loud guitar amp with it and not pad the mic preamp.
Nathan, what's this I hear from Fletcher about the ifet7's construction being slipshod?? He mentioned awhile ago that when he was full-time at Mercenary he nixed that mic from their roster because the construction was poor and the mic simply "fell apart".... any truth to this at all (I know Fletcher can be keen to hyperbole.....)

Thanks,

J.D.
Old 23rd May 2006
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdjustice
Nathan, what's this I hear from Fletcher about the ifet7's construction being slipshod?? He mentioned awhile ago that when he was full-time at Mercenary he nixed that mic from their roster because the construction was poor and the mic simply "fell apart".... any truth to this at all (I know Fletcher can be keen to hyperbole.....)

Thanks,

J.D.

I've gone over this a few times on the forum....sure it's the truth, Mercenary had quite a few units that had screens falling off, and failed switches. We did here at Atlas also, although apparently not as many in number based on talking to Fletcher about it (last week actually). It's been about 2 years since I've had any problems with an ifet7. We (Atlas Pro) never did recieve one where the screen fell off, but we did have problems with the "V" side of the mic crackling. But like I said it's been since 2004 since there has been a problem.

I've talked with David Bock about it at length (over a year ago) and he said the reason there are no longer problems is because Soundelux, the part that makes the microphones which is really just 2-3 people, acquired badly needed, and expensive test equipment that they didn't have before. After he told me that they bought the equipment they needed, the problems dissapeared. So yes, the problems with the iFET7 were true, but you have to qualify that with the fact (in my experience at least, and we sell these mics quite well) that it's in the past. What blows my mind, is that many of the people who had problems, had the problems out of the box, i.e. DOA, dead on arrival. I think that the dealer should open the box, test the mic for an hour, and make sure that it's working. If it's going to break, it's going to break in the first hour 99% of the time. And if a dealer sells a microphone or any piece of gear that is DOA, it should be replaced immediately by said dealer...not force the customer to have to go through warranty repair for a piece of gera they just received. Or at a mimimum the manufacturer overnight ships the mic on their dime back and forth, free of charge.

It's such a shame that some people have shyed away from this microphone because of past and apparently now corrected problems, because it's such a kick ass microphone in general. It works on certain voices where I haven't found a better solution. The Soundelux mics come with a three year warranty and their customer service is excellent, so I'm not sure if there is anything to worry about. If you're really worried about it, sell it before the warranty is over and buy another one...it's the same as leasing a car.
Old 23rd May 2006
  #20
Lives for gear
 
jdjustice's Avatar
Thanks Nathan for letting me know this. I am glad the problems are resolved and now I can feel more secure about purchasing from Soundelux. I agree with what you said about the DOA mics; I'm glad to hear that Atlas would immediately remedy any such problem.

J.D.
Old 24th May 2006
  #21
Gear Head
 

thanks all for the tips. since i didn't rtfm on the great river (trying to keep all original packing intact, in case i send it back...i know, dumb but true), i automatically cranked the input gain and left the output gain at half. i automatically assumed i'd increase the noise floor too much doing things in reverse. lesson learned.

finally got to try the api's on drums yesterday. HOLY S**T. Remember, I'm used to my octopre as my "hi end" drum pre. So this was something else. the kick THUMped. and the snare CRACKED. I've been recording bands daily here for 4 years. Nothing like this ever came out of my speakers :-)

I also used the 428 on the hh, ride, and room mics (instead of my Presonus Digimax). First time I ever heard a usable hh track recorded here. So the ISA is a monster step up from the Digimax. Even if its not in the same league as the API, I'm starting to wonder if I can somehow swing the ISA too, because it sounds SOOOO much better than the Presonus. If there's 4 channels in the same $1700-$2000 ballpark, I'm open to more suggestions.

I started all this gear madness trying to get a better vocal chain (maybe a better mic, and a better pre). It's my fulltime gig, albeit it is merely a budget project studio. But I ended up with 9, not 1 pre. Ugh! Oh no, I guess I am turning to the dark side. :-)

I'll try the iFet again. Have a couple different singers over the next week or so. Thanks for all the great opinions. Feel free to keep em coming!

brian
Old 24th May 2006
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Doublehelix's Avatar
 

I've got all three mic pres you refer too (although I have a lunchbox with API 512Cs, not the 3124).

All three have their uses, and are usable.

For drums, nothing I have can tough the APIs. Nothing.

For male rock vocals, I love the Great River, although the API can work as well.

For other things like ribbon mics (my R121 sounds amazing!), the ISA428 works well.

Be a true slut, and keep them all!!!
Old 24th May 2006
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doublehelix
Be a true slut, and keep them all!!!

Here, here!
Old 27th May 2006
  #24
Gear Head
 

guys
still in testing mode. i guess i'm leaning toward keeping all the pres.

As for the mics, I did try the iFet 7 again. I know mics are insanely subjective, but I just don't hear it. I "want" to like it because everyone seems to think it rocks. And it costs a pretty penny. But everyone I try it on sounds tinny. It's near NTK ville on some people. So at least for my clients, I don't think its a wise investment.

The K2 is a bit nicer to my ears. More shapable. And (please do not think I am nuts) for some reason, all my guinea pigs keep going "that's the one" when they hear the MXL tube mic thru the Great River (in blind listening shootouts). And I kinda agree.

Maybe its my rooms, etc. Or maybe it's just my test guys voices. I'm still giving it a couple days to be objective.

And I guess I can unload that Voicemaster, Twin Track pro and UA610 now And start soldering up the snakes for the new toys.

Thanks!
brian
Old 28th May 2006
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
As for the mics, I did try the iFet 7 again. I know mics are insanely subjective, but I just don't hear it. I "want" to like it because everyone seems to think it rocks. And it costs a pretty penny. But everyone I try it on sounds tinny. It's near NTK ville on some people.


Which mode is it tinny in? And how does it sound compared to the other mode? I ask because both the modes sound different than each other. I'm just curious because your description makes it sound like a microphone with only one sound, it really is two microphones housed in one body sharing the same capsule where one mode does one thing and the other mode does that thing very differently (I won't describe what I hear, I'd like to hear your subjective results).
Old 28th May 2006
  #26
Gear Head
 

I've tried both modes on some of my testers. Tinny is a bad word I guess. It's one of the CLEAREST sounds I've ever got (not hi end transistor sizzle on treble end). But it seems almost TOO clear with not enough low mids. (To be fair, none of my clients has been EATING the mic, they've been 6-12" away).

Overall, I've preferred the sound of Instrument mode to that of voice mode on most of the testers.

Voice mode has seemed a little too present for me (but then again, that's the point of voice mode). Instrument mode seems to work better with nasal rock belters.

One of the disadvantages to trying something like this is that I am so used to my other mics. I've been mixing with [dealing with] their idiosyncracies for years. And the iFet is something I've been trotting out in front of clients before vocal sessions or at the end of tracking days just to see how they sound. (In a couple of cases, the client was cool and laid down vocals with the iFet and either the Mouse or another mic). But in even those quick cases, my first gut response was that I didn't like the iFet as much as the other mic, or at least for $2200, its not a major improvement (as much of an improvement as say going from the Octopre to the API for drums...which has been sickeningly great).

That might be a familiarity issue (we usually gravitate towards what we are used to). I haven't had the chance to EQ, compress, mix and remix the daylights out of the iFet. And with 2 modes, that's double the testing/break in time. And I am very far behind with my mixes already, so I am doing my best to give it a fair shake.

With my voice, I think Voice mode rocked. But I belt and have a huge low end build up on my voice when I do. So I don't need the proximity effect too much. In fact, I have tracks I cut with an 87 some years ago (albeit printed to tape with EQ and compression) that sounds VERY similar to the iFet in Voice Mode.

The Instrument mode, again, sounded ok for singers who were more, shall I say "whiny, nasal" etc. And since that's mostly what I record here (and I'm not trying to slag the talent or style when I say whiny or nasal), I think it might not be the best fit.

That being said, I haven't had any pop females in here for a few weeks, and I bet the IFet would shine on that.

Again, I value your input and reccomendations immensely. I will give the mic another shake. Any suggestions (other than normal stuff) for giving it its best workout? Its running thru the Great River, API or ISA right now for testing. Tested in my live and dead rooms.

Anyway, again, keep the feedback coming!

brian
Old 28th May 2006
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
I've tried both modes on some of my testers. Tinny is a bad word I guess. It's one of the CLEAREST sounds I've ever got (not hi end transistor sizzle on treble end). But it seems almost TOO clear with not enough low mids. (To be fair, none of my clients has been EATING the mic, they've been 6-12" away).

Okay, that makes a little more sense. That sounds a lot like the "I" mode to me. To my ears the "V" mode is darker/richer. The "I" mode is intended to sound 'clear' and 'fast', as the "I" indicates for up close instrument usage (but of course there are no rules by any means), i.e. works great 2 inches from the inside beater head of a kick drum or 2 inches from a bass cabinet speaker. The "V" mode has a lot more coloration, a lot more proximity effect (see the freq response of the two modes of the mic) equaling more thickness through the low midrange. One foot away isn't going to do much for thickness on any microphone IME. I usually have vocalists 3-6 inches from the microphone (with a Stedman pop right up to their lips)...the mic handles it fine regardless of vocalist SPL and sits well in the mix with the usual compression applied.
Old 29th May 2006
  #28
Gear Head
 

Oy ve.

On giving the tracks cut with the iFet a second listen. They sorta are growing on me. It seems my opinion changes every day.

What it boils down to is, I was planning on upgrading the studio to the tune of $5-$6k this year, getting rid of some gear, etc. I really wanted to get rid of my 610 and get a great vocal mic/chain. I ended up falling for a great set of drum pres.... UGH!

Like stated before. I have an NTK (BEYOND BRIGHT but ends up getting used on lots of rock bands), Mouse (I hate most days, but like occasionally), MXL 2001 (which has become more of a go to than not lately), and ADK ST, and an SM7B for the screamo kids.

Comparing the iFet to those, the ADK is eerily similar. But not as full or clear when people start opening up on it. And the Mouse sounds SOOOOOOOPER hyped compared to it.

So to get that iFet, I'm going to put myself in a BIG hole. And I WANT to be more disciplined (my studio is my full time gig, but I'm not THAT popular ). So all in all, I can probably swing the Ifet only if I send back the ISA or the NV1. And I have so many vocal mics already, I'm not wondering if the mic is as important now.

I must admit I am struggling on this now. I'm liking the iFet tracks the more I hear em. So any gear addicted friendly advice welcome. I have been listening to stuff daily, trying to decide. But outside voices are always welcome...

thanks guys..
brian
Old 30th May 2006
  #29
Jtt
Gear Addict
 
Jtt's Avatar
 

Don't spend money on gear that your studio can't support. Save longer and live cheaper--get the stuff eventually. But let your clients pay for it, not your credit cards.

-Jtt


Quote:
Originally Posted by brithedark
Oy ve.

On giving the tracks cut with the iFet a second listen. They sorta are growing on me. It seems my opinion changes every day.

What it boils down to is, I was planning on upgrading the studio to the tune of $5-$6k this year, getting rid of some gear, etc. I really wanted to get rid of my 610 and get a great vocal mic/chain. I ended up falling for a great set of drum pres.... UGH!

Like stated before. I have an NTK (BEYOND BRIGHT but ends up getting used on lots of rock bands), Mouse (I hate most days, but like occasionally), MXL 2001 (which has become more of a go to than not lately), and ADK ST, and an SM7B for the screamo kids.

Comparing the iFet to those, the ADK is eerily similar. But not as full or clear when people start opening up on it. And the Mouse sounds SOOOOOOOPER hyped compared to it.

So to get that iFet, I'm going to put myself in a BIG hole. And I WANT to be more disciplined (my studio is my full time gig, but I'm not THAT popular ). So all in all, I can probably swing the Ifet only if I send back the ISA or the NV1. And I have so many vocal mics already, I'm not wondering if the mic is as important now.

I must admit I am struggling on this now. I'm liking the iFet tracks the more I hear em. So any gear addicted friendly advice welcome. I have been listening to stuff daily, trying to decide. But outside voices are always welcome...

thanks guys..
brian
Old 30th May 2006
  #30
Gear Head
 

Divine Intervention?

Figured I'd give the ifet one last A/B test today against the Mouse and etc.

And I plugged it in, and voila. Nothing but distortion in Voice mode. Flipped to I mode, it was ok. But nothing but total distortion on V mode. Even tried flipping the switch a few times. Nothing. And I plugged in a bunch of others to make sure it was not the cables, pre, etc.

Maybe this is God's way of saying "settle down young man". :-)

Anyway, that made the choice a lot easier. And thanks to the poster above. Sometimes I'm in such a rush to get all this amazing free agent gear, but I am still a small market team. I think the pres will be useful and help me get much better sounding demos around here. And maybe I'll save and buy a better mic one day, but not now. And probably not an iFet.

After all, I guess a lot of good engineers can make hits on what I already have (or less). I just have to work (listen) harder.

bri
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