The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
RADAR to JCF Audio Interfaces
Old 25th February 2012
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Soundgeeza's Avatar
 

RADAR to JCF

I am hoping that Roc Mixwell and/or Fletcher might be able to help me out with this one ...or anyone else that knows RADAR and JCF

I have 48 tracks of IZ RADAR classic 24, but I very very rarely now have a need to record more than 16 tracks at a time.

My band Red Box (shameless plug of video) are about to record the next album and I just want something which can easily be carted around between the 3 (quite nice) studio's that half of the band have.

Now I am having rather slutty feelings towards JCF AD8. I DON'T want transparent! I am old enough to remember the glory days of a well set up 2" 16 track machine! and I want that nice thwack that you used to get when the tape op hit play and the Tannoy's sprung into life...

So my question is: would I be sacrificing any mojo in moving the RADAR's on in favour of a JCF AD8 system?

I don't want conjecture in any answers, I only need advice from people who have used and know BOTH systems well. I'd love to get hold of an AD8 to put it up next to the RADAR, but they are rather scarce over this side of the pond!
Old 25th February 2012
  #2
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
No conjecture - you will get the feeling of moving from a 2"-24 to a 2"-16, bigger sound, wider soundstage, better depth to the audio. Obviously this kind of switch isn't for the "faint of pocketbook"... but it will absolutely be amazing sounding!!

I have to say I'm more than a little envious at just the thought of this!!!

Peace
Old 25th February 2012
  #3
Do you have the AES/EBU card in your RADAR?
Old 25th February 2012
  #4
Lives for gear
 
chrisrulesmore's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
No conjecture - you will get the feeling of moving from a 2"-24 to a 2"-16, bigger sound, wider soundstage, better depth to the audio. Obviously this kind of switch isn't for the "faint of pocketbook"... but it will absolutely be amazing sounding!!

I have to say I'm more than a little envious at just the thought of this!!!

Peace
Just checked these out and the JCR 8 ch. AD seems relatively cheap at $3.4k, but it looks like the DA8 is closer to $6.75k. Quality of monitoring aside, I'm curious as to why the analog tape machine sounding DA matters all that much in the grand scheme of things since it is only affecting playback.

Put another way, does one get the "feeling of moving from a 2"-24 to a 2"-16, bigger sound, wider sounstage, better depth to the audio" strictly from the JCF AD, or is that mostly the sonic affect of the monster DA?

-Chris
Old 25th February 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
tiny333's Avatar
 

Are you in england sound??

I am an have both the ad8 and dav8

Your more than welcome to check them out

But you dont need too...just go there and join the 'smug bastards' club

Its great fun

Old 25th February 2012
  #6
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisrulesmore View Post
I'm curious as to why the analog tape machine sounding DA matters all that much in the grand scheme of things since it is only affecting playback.
If you're doing analog summing... like say with the DA-8 into an InnerTUBE "Sumthang"... you will notice where the extra money went!! The sound is huge, clear, and opulent like something you probably haven't heard in the last 40-50 years... record it right and you reap all the benefits!!

Peace
Old 25th February 2012
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisrulesmore View Post
Just checked these out and the JCF 8 ch. AD seems relatively cheap at $3.4k, but it looks like the DA8 is closer to $6.75k. Quality of monitoring aside, I'm curious as to why the analog tape machine sounding DA matters all that much in the grand scheme of things since it is only affecting playback.

Put another way, does one get the "feeling of moving from a 2"-24 to a 2"-16, bigger sound, wider sounstage, better depth to the audio" strictly from the JCF AD, or is that mostly the sonic affect of the monster DA?

-Chris
Chris;

Each of these boxes is SPECIAL dude. For both sides of your recorder. The AD8 uses no op amp at all, with a custom cinemag input transformer on each channel. P/E/P, is a miracle concept, and the converter has a very unique sonic quality [even without P/E/P]. It has been designed to make your job easier down stream. No matter what DAC you wanna use. Everything processes differently. Everything about it, makes your life easier.

There are no residual linear artifacts, no buzzy bull**** high end, no shaved bottom octave, or anything other than musical artifacts. It has a thicker, wide, creamy sound, that is very high-fidelity and full. The top is smooth, but crystal clear.

The DA8 is 8-channels of 351 inspired tube DAC, with custom cinemag's. This unit add's 3,000 LB weight's to your manhood, while your mixing. It adds a silly amount of density and harmonics, that bring back the natural overtones, you thought you lost. It has a thick, weighted appeal, that makes things HUGE and BETTER. If you like that sort of thing.

I would agree with Tiny333, go forth and be happy. No need to demo them. They completely slay the RADAR's "straight forward" sonic quality, in my opinion. Just figure out how you wanna hook em up to a recorder. I would DITCH the second RADAR, and find out about getting 24 Channel AES/EBU board for one machine. Rack it up and get two AD8's, and some AES/EBU snakes. Use a console, and continue loving life. If you wanna mix into something with a HUGE sound, you get the DA8v. Or many of them. Whatever works.
Old 25th February 2012
  #8
Lives for gear
 
tiny333's Avatar
 

Sshh adam or everyone will want one
Old 25th February 2012
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny333 View Post
Sshh adam or everyone will want one
LOL!!!!!! The secret's out brutha! The latest word over at JCF Custom Shop, "Ruining Audio Less Since 2004" [best slogan I've ever seen!!] is that they can't build them fast enough!!!! I want ONE of everything Josh builds. Except, I do own a pair of LEVR's. But those are SOLD as one item, so I'm still hitting my goal, slowly but surely.
Old 25th February 2012
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
Soundgeeza's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Do you have the AES/EBU card in your RADAR?
No digital cards in ... paid Canadabob for 2 x TDIF cards last year, but he did a runner with my money


Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny333 View Post
Are you in england sound??
I am an have both the ad8 and dav8
Your more than welcome to check them out
I would love to chap - I'm in North London/South Herts ... be good to pop round, have a cup of rosie and have a good listen..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
No conjecture - you will get the feeling of moving from a 2"-24 to a 2"-16, bigger sound, wider soundstage, better depth to the audio. Obviously this kind of switch isn't for the "faint of pocketbook"... but it will absolutely be amazing sounding!!
OK - 2" - 16 you say ... NOW I am starting to get excited! Can't wait to hear one of these puppies!
Old 25th February 2012
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Remy Leloup's Avatar
Very interesting thread just when i thought takink Apogee's stuff .....

Fletcher and Roc are sooo good to give me enthusiasm and it's a great human quality ..

As a radar former owner , I would seriously consider that JCF stuff
Old 25th February 2012
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundgeeza View Post
No digital cards in ... paid Canadabob for 2 x TDIF cards last year, but he did a runner with my money
Hmmm, that doesn't sound like a story with a good ending.

Maybe there is a way to shove those TDIF cards up someones ass, and get AES/EBU cards for your machines? I can only assume who Canada BOB is in this story. Not sure, but it does sound a little like your done using your RADAR's.

If you lose both the machines on the used market, you can probably fund your JCF purchases, get a new Mac Pro, running a DAW of your choice and a Lynx AES16e card, - mount everything into a padded/shock mount case, and then configure a doom rack of epic proportions.

BTW, I don't think you wanna be carting around DA8v's. They weigh 44LBS on one side. The metal work alone is pretty ridiculous. The AD8's are much easier to provide cartage for.
Old 25th February 2012
  #13
Lives for gear
 
tiny333's Avatar
 

Drop me a pm sound and i will give u phone etc
Old 27th February 2012
  #14
Lives for gear
 
once a roadie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Chris;

Each of these boxes is SPECIAL dude. For both sides of your recorder. The AD8 uses no op amp at all, with a custom cinemag input transformer on each channel. P/E/P, is a miracle concept, and the converter has a very unique sonic quality [even without P/E/P]. It has been designed to make your job easier down stream. No matter what DAC you wanna use. Everything processes differently. Everything about it, makes your life easier.

There are no residual linear artifacts, no buzzy bull**** high end, no shaved bottom octave, or anything other than musical artifacts. It has a thicker, wide, creamy sound, that is very high-fidelity and full. The top is smooth, but crystal clear.

The DA8 is 8-channels of 351 inspired tube DAC, with custom cinemag's. This unit add's 3,000 LB weight's to your manhood, while your mixing. It adds a silly amount of density and harmonics, that bring back the natural overtones, you thought you lost. It has a thick, weighted appeal, that makes things HUGE and BETTER. If you like that sort of thing.

I would agree with Tiny333, go forth and be happy. No need to demo them. They completely slay the RADAR's "straight forward" sonic quality, in my opinion. Just figure out how you wanna hook em up to a recorder. I would DITCH the second RADAR, and find out about getting 24 Channel AES/EBU board for one machine. Rack it up and get two AD8's, and some AES/EBU snakes. Use a console, and continue loving life. If you wanna mix into something with a HUGE sound, you get the DA8v. Or many of them. Whatever works.

Hey - anyone have more info on the P/E/P ...what is it and what does it do?
Old 27th February 2012
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Zep Dude's Avatar
 

+1 on the JCF ADs. These really shine on live instruments and vocals among other things (ie, the better your source the more you'll appreciate how well they capture it).

For you monitoring I would suggest something a little more neutral. I love the JCF DA's for sending out tracks for analog processing, even sending out the 2 mix, but for monitoring I prefer a "neutral" sounding converter. I use a Benchmark DAC for this. You don't want to mix into added color (from the JCF DA's) that won't be there for anyone else to hear...unless you want to include a free JCF DA with every CD and download of your music.
Old 27th February 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 

I would consider long term support and reliability. I am not sure about the other company but I know within 1 ring I will be on the phone with the president of the radar company....... Not many companies have a trac record like that. Also they are still servicing units made over 20 years ago.

Besides your back muscles will get stronger over time lugging that fricken radar around!!!
Old 27th February 2012
  #17
PDC
Lives for gear
 

Has anyone tried using a tube stage to generate harmonics pre clean A/D, so that the same A/D could be used in other applications?
Old 27th February 2012
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Zep Dude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC View Post
Has anyone tried using a tube stage to generate harmonics pre clean A/D, so that the same A/D could be used in other applications?
It's not quite that simple. The JCF's sound as good as they do because of their lack of electronics. They do this through use of transformers specifically tuned to that function and the byproduct is some pretty cool (and usable) transformer color. Pretty much all other AD's use a good deal of electronics (op amps etc) and then you're talking about adding even more electronics (tube stage) to try to simulate the minimalism of the JCF circuit.

For what it's worth, for recording individual tracks, in the +4 years of using my JCF's I don't think of them as "colored" so much as lacking the inherent thinness and harshness of many other converters. And for the slight fatness the transformers may add, well, when is the last time you heard anyone complain that digital recording sounded too thick???

I find that tracks recorded with my JCF's come together more quickly in the mix and require less processing because the sounds are already pretty close to where they need to be -harmonic, rich, natural, fat.
Old 27th February 2012
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by once a roadie View Post
Hey - anyone have more info on the P/E/P ...what is it and what does it do?
P/E/P stands for "power equalization process", and it is PROPRIETARY technology designed by Josh. It is one of two modes on the AD8. The first mode has extremely low (nonexistent) latency time. PEP mode has a rather long latency time, and a pretty cool thought process in application.

It is similar in response, to what you might experience between the Input/sync electronics of a tape machine, versus the more "pristine" playback electronics. The long latency time of PEP, just happened to be eerily similar to a head gap delay.

It is playback quality on a switch. This is not to say that the first mode sounds worse, it is just different. when switched into this mode, you are meant to split your mic amps to artist hp's, and into the AD8 on PEP, with an engineer monitoring through the system, making better moves to better results.

I hope this answers your questions

Last edited by Doc Mixwell; 27th February 2012 at 08:22 PM.. Reason: horrid spelling of the most important word
Old 27th February 2012
  #20
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
P/E/P stands for "power equalization process", and it is PROPRIETY technology designed by Josh. It is one of two modes on the AD8. The first mode has extremely low (nonexistent) latency time. PEP mode has a rather long latency time, and a pretty cool thought process in application.

It is similar in response, to what you might experience between the Input/sync electronics of a tape machine, versus the more "pristine" playback electronics. The long latency time of PEP, just happened to be eerily similar to a head gap delay.

It is playback quality on a switch. This is not to say that the first mode sounds worse, it is just different. when switched into this mode, you are meant to split your mic amps to artist hp's, and into the AD8 on PEP, with an engineer monitoring through the system, making better moves to better results.

I hope this answers your questions
They accomplish this without any active analog electronics? Also, why should there be such a long latency?

I appreciate your enthusiasm but how about a more in-depth explanation.

-R
Old 28th February 2012
  #21
Lives for gear
 
tiny333's Avatar
 

Good things come to those that wait


Grasshopper


Old 28th February 2012
  #22
Lives for gear
 
once a roadie's Avatar
I expect P/E/P is a digital process from the description.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
They accomplish this without any active analog electronics? Also, why should there be such a long latency?

I appreciate your enthusiasm but how about a more in-depth explanation.

-R
Old 3rd April 2012
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
Flagfoot's Avatar
about to invest in a AD8 + DA8 combo and I'm extremely excited.
Old 3rd April 2012
  #24
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
P/E/P stands for "power equalization process", and it is PROPRIETARY technology designed by Josh. It is one of two modes on the AD8. The first mode has extremely low (nonexistent) latency time. PEP mode has a rather long latency time, and a pretty cool thought process in application.

It is similar in response, to what you might experience between the Input/sync electronics of a tape machine, versus the more "pristine" playback electronics. The long latency time of PEP, just happened to be eerily similar to a head gap delay.

It is playback quality on a switch. This is not to say that the first mode sounds worse, it is just different. when switched into this mode, you are meant to split your mic amps to artist hp's, and into the AD8 on PEP, with an engineer monitoring through the system, making better moves to better results.

I hope this answers your questions
Come on Roc, enough mumbo jumbo. Why would this have a tape-gap sized latency? It's expensive and would be a pain to deal with, so it would seem that some sort of explanation would be in order, even if it is proprietary.

Does it beam your signal through the cloud to somebody's tape deck, record it and then beam back the playback?

Does it give all the little bits time to form neat lines before coming into the DAW, like 3rd graders coming in from recess?

Does it contain tiny physical therapists who massage the data with coconut oil, with the latency being due to the "happy ending option"?

Is it taking the bytes and slow cooking them into their constituent bits like braising a veal shank, then using the latency time to reduce the sauce and pour it over the meat osso bucco style? http://www.rickkrizman.com/Site/Blog...e_food....html

Enquiring minds with burgeoning wallets want to know.

-R
Old 3rd April 2012
  #25
Yes Rick, it is proprietary and it's not my place to discuss it with you on a public forum. I was only posting my experience, and trying to explain how to use the AD8, in efforts to help. Which, I will surely continue. I would suggest contacting JCF directly, to find out if Josh wants to share that information with you.

here is their contact info,

Contact Us |

Best Regards
Old 3rd April 2012
  #26
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Ha, I guessed it didn't I.


Old 3rd April 2012
  #27
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

You know for all the hype the Radar converters have gotten here over the years, it's odd to see them so easily roned. I mean at one point I thought I couldn't make a record without them.

The king is dead, long live the king?

-R
Old 3rd April 2012
  #28
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Yes Rick, it is proprietary and it's not my place to discuss it with you on a public forum. I was only posting my experience, and trying to explain how to use the AD8, in efforts to help. Which, I will surely continue. I would suggest contacting JCF directly, to find out if Josh wants to share that information with you.

here is their contact info,

Contact Us |

Best Regards
E-mail sent, thanks.

-R
Old 4th April 2012
  #29
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
The long latency time of PEP, just happened to be eerily similar to a head gap delay.
There is no such thing as "head gap delay" - if you're talking about the spacing between a record head, and a repro head... 72 - 90 ms [depending on the machine] is some pretty serious latency... or, perhaps you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Not that I care, it is what it is... but if you're going to try to explain it, perhaps some level of accuracy might not be a bad thing.

Carry on.

Peace
Old 4th April 2012
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
There is no such thing as "head gap delay" - if you're talking about the spacing between a record head, and a repro head... 72 - 90 ms [depending on the machine] is some pretty serious latency... or, perhaps you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Not that I care, it is what it is... but if you're going to try to explain it, perhaps some level of accuracy might not be a bad thing.

Carry on.

Peace
Think you can explain the AD8 any better, Norbert?

Go ahead, Be my guest...I would guess you've never used one.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
aermotor / So Much Gear, So Little Time
2
tcoop001 / Rap + Hip Hop Engineering and Production
2
kellyr52 / High End
8

Forum Jump
Forum Jump